Why I am not a Christian

Has anyone managed to rebut Bertrand Russell's "Why I am Not a Christian?"

Here are some excerpts

>There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination. Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the First Cause.

> If you say, as more orthodox theologians do, that in all the laws which God issues he had a reason for giving those laws rather than others -- the reason, of course, being to create the best universe, although you would never think it to look at it -- if there were a reason for the laws which God gave, then God himself was subject to law, and therefore you do not get any advantage by introducing God as an intermediary.

>Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan or the Fascists?

>There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching

>There is the instance of the Gadarene swine, where it certainly was not very kind to the pigs to put the devils into them and make them rush down the hill into the sea. You must remember that He was omnipotent, and He could have made the devils simply go away; but He chose to send them into the pigs.

> That is only an example. There are a great many ways in which, at the present moment, the church, by its insistence upon what it chooses to call morality, inflicts upon all sorts of people undeserved and unnecessary suffering. And of course, as we know, it is in its major part an opponent still of progress and improvement in all the ways that diminish suffering in the world, because it has chosen to label as morality a certain narrow set of rules of conduct which have nothing to do with human happiness; and when you say that this or that ought to be done because it would make for human happiness, they think that has nothing to do with the matter at all. "What has human happiness to do with morals? The object of morals is not to make people happy."

>The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings.

Other urls found in this thread:

newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Earth
technologyreview.com/s/427722/mathematics-of-eternity-prove-the-universe-must-have-had-a-beginning/
arxiv.org/pdf/1204.5385.pdf
arxiv.org/find/quant-ph/1/au: Wharton_K/0/1/0/all/0/1
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

Wittgenstein did when he called all of Russell's non mathematical writings utter garbage which no one should ever read.

How exactly is that a rebuttal?

Well, that's wrong Russell. There is such a thing as avoiding the occasion of sin. In other words, not tempting the Lord. Secondly, that confessor would be putting temptation before the nun, however free of evil intent he'd be. Should I read the rest of OP's post? With such a worthless beginning, no.

>Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan or the Fascists?

Woah hey dude, if god's real, how come there are things that I personally disagree with in this world???? Checkmate christcucks

Those arguments are refuting themselves. All he had to do was read some entry-level Christian lit.

How could Chesterton stay friends with such fucking plebs?

Top notch exposition, christposter/10

Dawkins Sr. basically

>There is the instance of the Gadarene swine, where it certainly was not very kind to the pigs to put the devils into them and make them rush down the hill into the sea. You must remember that He was omnipotent, and He could have made the devils simply go away; but He chose to send them into the pigs.

"The vegetarian argument against the existence of God."

I'm merely assuming the position of "Why waste my breath when someone else has already said all I'd like to say, but probably much more eloquently?".
You, too, should read some entry-level Christian lit. Mere Christianity, for instance.

Will you grace me with another reply? May I suggest "Lewis a shit" or something in that vein?

>There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination. Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the First Cause.
Would it be a poorer imagination to think that it had no beginning? I think to imagine a beginning takes more imagination than to imagine nothing. And to disregard an argument regarding the likelihood of a beginning of the universe (everything has a beginning) so easily is horribly cheap.

Secondly, that's not what the argument of the First Cause means, you plebbite. It's a horrifying thing when people who are so widely admired and regarded as great show themselves absolutely vapid.

If you can't refute any of it then you're just answering OPs question for us m80

No. It just seems a cry for attention.

It does not interest me to find out what someone believes or doesn't believe. It's a personal matter and doesn't really need to be spoken about.

>Would it be a poorer imagination to think that it had no beginning? I think to imagine a beginning takes more imagination than to imagine nothing.
In this case yes
> lol all these religidiots with their unimaginative "universe has a beginning"
> gives no idea for how his amazing imagination (imazination?) pictures the possibility of a universe with no beginning
It's academic posturing at its worst and unfortunately some people lap it up. He was great when he was doing his word paradoxes but I think meeting God on Earth Wittgenstein and never really getting what he was saying but knowing it was better than anything he was doing brought out the more miserable aspects of his intellect and personality.

You didn't really read my post, did you?
The answer to OP's question is: Yes, Lewis, among others, has rebutted those arguments without even trying.

>You must remember that He was omnipotent, and He could have made the devils simply go away; but He chose to send them into the pigs.
There is nearly an argument there but it's been done before by other Christians. A better one I think is the ol "How can Satan offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the Earth to rule?"

>How can Satan offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the Earth to rule?
I'm curious, how is that an argument? How is that a good question? Could you elaborate? I'm not even trying to argue, I'm genuinely interested.

The assumption of well-defined, deterministic causality proves to be too much

>it's another christfag vs fedoralords thread

Fucking autists, get this juvenile shit over to Veeky Forums

It's as simple as it reads. That bit in the Bible just implies a lot of implications and has been interpreted the shit out of. It's a favourite of some or the Gnostic interpretations because you can view it as God isn't all powerful (because the Earth and material things are Satan's)

The devil thought the Christ was some prophet, so he tempted him with goods. In this case, all the world. I can't think of a more simple thing. The devil is not betitled "prince of this world" for nothing. It still applies, but it was especially true before the sacrifice of Christ which redeemed us from the devil.

If I had read that before I made , I wouldn't have made it.

>Gnosticism
Shit's dumb.

This thread would be more accurately described as "let me tell you why that's wrong, Bertrand old friend."

>There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination. Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the First Cause.
not an argument

tbf to this point if everything is as God's plan extended then I think a lot of people might have real trouble trying to work out what it is God's interested in bringing about.

> OK so God was pretty intent on YA from the start, that's clear
> hmmm God intends a world in which some hair dyes work better than others, what's the game plan here
> And God said, let there be many people who go through life not really thinking much and have a pretty muh time, let them play COD and eat hot pockets, let a few of them go at one point to the store for cleaning supplies but buy instead a backscratcher. Yes, yes it's all coming together.

Basically if everything is according to God's design then his intent must be so abstract that I don't really think there's much point trying to work it out or sympathise with his view.

desu I think that's one of the defining characteristics of God. the universe is intricate and mysterious. things like hair dyes working better are just a consequence of the way the materials their made of and interact with function, which are much more complex and have all kinds of other uses etc.

>For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
>nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.
>For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
>so are my ways higher than your ways
>and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-9

>what is free will what is the fall who is christ
it's literally the absolute basics

I feel so triggered by the "God has given us free will" response to theodicy.
Shouldn't an omnipotent being be able to create a universe in which evil and free will can co-exist perfectly?

That chart shows a deep misunderstanding of both causation and time.

>what is free will

Go on. Tell us. I'm already laughing at you.

>he thinks free will means absolute independence from any conditions
kek

newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm

It'll take you an hour or two to go through, m8

It does though, different user.
Whenever people try to prove that free will exists they start reshaping what it initially meant until the entire discussion has become a new one.
You just started a new discussion.

The classically understood brand of free will doesn't exist.

free will never meant that free will is super free will and isn't influenced by anything ever.

So what you're really saying is that whenever a discussion arises it first takes a whole discussion to rid you idiots of your misconceptions, and yet you begin again next time. How embarrassing.

B-b-but "free" as in "freedom" means and always meant being able to do whatever you want all time time, r-r-right? ;_;

The opposite of all that is true, as I said in my first post.

Your understanding of perfect is limited at best. Gods will is perfect. A human mind is simply incapable of having the correct and objective understanding of what perfection is.

Is he retarded? The world did have a beginning. Earthbegan to form over 4.6 billion years ago from the same cloud of gas (mostly hydrogen and helium) and interstellar dust that formed our sun, the rest of the solar system and even our galaxy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Earth

This guy doesn't know anything.

>free will never meant that free will is super free will and isn't influenced by anything ever.

Yeah, it does.

Free will is the thesis that there are uncaused mental states that have physical effects.

The thesis is inconsistent with the scientific view that mental states are just ways of organizing physical states, and thus have physical causes.

He's not talking about Earth, you epic retard.

Free will means a choice between tacos and burritos. It doesn't matter what leads you to that choice but the fact you had one.

The universe world had a beginning the Big Bang. The Western world had a beginning Western society. Human world had a beginning in Africa. What world is he speaking on?

I mean Greek society.

>you're misunderstanding what it is
>no i am not. here is why the thing i am misunderstanding is wrong
kek

>for the purposes of discussion, let's call a chair a four-legged platform on which a man may sit. Ok? Is that satisfactory?

>[All agree]

>[Years pass]

>I submit that this item is a chair, though it has three legs only.

>No it isn't, asshat. The rock-hard, set-in-stone, classical definition of a chair is a four-legged platform on which a man may sit. You may say it performs a function similar to a chair's, but the fact that you actually call it a chair suggests that you are totally ignorant of chair classification rules. It is a chair-like object (CLO), but by definition cannot be a chair.

The world did have a beginning though, you mythological retard

The Big Bang is just the earliest point in time we have any information about. Anything that happened before that point is irrelevant to cosmology.

How then can you trust human judgment about the existence and nature of this alleged deity? You declare the human mind to be flawed in some unspecified way in order to justify an unfounded belief.

Is the human mind not flawed?

religion is a coping mechanism once you face your failure of your life, just like other contrived fantasizes, your faith in the scientific method included.


Religions are meant to leave material-bodily hedonism, travels, concerts, foods, sex and so on, for a spiritual hedonism, through prayers for theists and mediation for atheists.
Plenty of material hedonist love to think of themselves as less hedonistic than they are, since it improves their hedonism in thinking that they are not animals...most people who claim to be religious are not all, it is just the way they are.
In buddhism, you even leave this spiritual hedonism, after you have gained it, which is called jhanas, since you understand that this bliss from prayers, which is just a great, but not perfect concentration-stilness, are not personal nor permanent and that you are still prone to avidity and aversion.

Analogy fail.

>scientific realism
>2016

fucktard

If it is, then you don't have the security of making any sort of claim about anything of this sort. Our thoughts and languages have definite limitations, but within those limits we can work safely. Anything outside - such as supernatural entities - we cannot.

No because being omnipotent / omniscient the way the all matter interacts was off God's specific design. So every possible compound and its function is intended and not restricted by any perceived regulatory principles because these also are God's design, it looks like they're regulated by the laws of physics but there are no laws, only chosen specificities. God could have made it so that H20 when heated become a film about Hitler, or he could have made it so that C20 was good at designing robots. There's no such thing as laws or systemic principals in omnipotent / omniscient design.

technologyreview.com/s/427722/mathematics-of-eternity-prove-the-universe-must-have-had-a-beginning/

amazing how shitty britain is if this is a famous philosopher there

There's no way of knowing. All we can know is what the observable evidence says.

It's irrelevant in any case. Causation does not work the way you think it does. It's just a schema we impose on nature to summarize recurring patterns of physical events. There's no "first mover" requirement, nor is backwards causation disallowed. There's no fact of the matter about causation beyond the inference rules deployed in actual scientific theories.

Just ignore everything Bertrand Russell says.

Susskind demolished that bit of fallacious reasoning: arxiv.org/pdf/1204.5385.pdf

I agree with you. I should make it clear that I was not arguing for God since doing so would be impossible to do in objective terms.
I was, however, simply stating a reason as to why "if God real why world not perfect" is a ridiculous argument.

I've limited understanding of the matter, but don't delayed choice quantum eraser experiments even show that events have some sort of logical consistency (even 'awareness', in some sense) when played backwards? Time seems like a social construct.

>Susskind
HaHAHAHAHAajahahagdHzhzh.mmgaushhshahahahahajajahjababaHabJHSHAHAHAHAGAHAHAAAAAHAAAAAaAaaaaaaa!!!!

christcucks triggered lmao

Are you clinically retarded?

None of these are even arguments. These are shitposting on Veeky Forums tier statements. What a fucking joke of a guy.

That's certainly one possible interpretation (but not the only one). I recommend the work of Huw Price and Ken Wharton if you're interested in a retrocausal approach to interpreting QM: arxiv.org/find/quant-ph/1/au: Wharton_K/0/1/0/all/0/1

Well, Christianity is a fucking joke of a worldview, so his tone is quite appropriate.

>this writing is shit
>well he responded to shit so its ok
based
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If you think Bertrand Russell's writing is "shit", you are a moron beyond words.

His non math writings are awful and Wittgenstein agrees.

Wittgenstein was batshit insane.

Bertrand Russell wasn't omnipotent.

And Russell wrote awful political, ethical and theological commentaries as well as one of the worst philosophy overviews in existence.

Fuck off with that nonsense.

m8, the op is evidence of it for fuck sake

The worst you can say about the OP is that it is obvious, common sense.

Right, now I know you're trolling.

...

...

What? Cite a single sentence he wrote that is false.

^ christfag having a meltdown

Did you try reading his non mathematical works? Because the Wisdom of the West was fucking torture which can be hated by everyone who isn't in the anglo saxon Hume/Berkley/Locke tradition because he will trigger platonists, aristotelians, chriatians, cartesians, nihilists, hegelians and everyone else by the unfair and untrue representations of said philosophies.

>I can in no way defend another man's retarded opinions which I have also assumed as my own, so I'll just call samefag on everyone who points out how retarded I am!

Woah woah woah, back it up guys, I assume that because you're having this argument someone has proved the basic premise that there is a supernatural, and a god exists, and that it is the christian one right?

Could someone give me a tl;dr of this proof?

>Science is also significantly based on induction and empiricism.
science is based on induction far more than on empiricism. TO be an empiricist means that you do not cling to your speculations, no matter their degree of formalization, and you cling even less to your fantasy of reality and explaining reality and ocmmunicating your explanations.

Russell's conceits are fundamentally correct.

The appropriate thing to do, when confronted with conventional religion, is to look at it, think about it a while and, having thought about it a while and come to an appropriate assessment, tilt one's head slightly and utter out the side of one's mouth /hm, I think that's bullshit./

Apologetics are in the - No-no-no just hang on a minute how-about - business. Except there is no how-about. You prod the edifice once, from any which way, and the whole shibboleth comes down. It takes something on the order of human culture, rationalization, to keep it propped up. It's a dance that apolegetics been trained, cultured to do, to defend mysteries, pretend knowledge where convenient, and alternately abdicate knowledge for the same reason.

Not an argument

This. Well stated.

wait, what?

sorry not trying to be argumentative or anything, but I'm not getting how that relates to my, admittedly, overly sarcastically phrased question

what's with all the LARPing Veeky Forums christians

...

nobody on earth knows what a proof is, because a proof is a concept.

>rationalization
define rationalization

>any communication between people with different subjective realities is imperfect and relies on axioms that are to one degree or another speculative
>ergo, Christianity
hmm

In psychology and logic, rationalization or rationalisation (also known as making excuses[1]) is a defense mechanism in which controversial behaviors or feelings are justified and explained in a seemingly rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable – or even admirable and superior – by plausible means.[2] It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.[3]

>I have a pop-phil definition of Christianity which fits my hedonistic life

>informal fallacy of reasoning.[3]
thinking that fallacies exist outside formal languages

return to facebook kuk

Not sure where you got that one from, considering I grew up with a very serious faith and church, but feel free to define Christianity for my ignorant ass.

so you agree with the 'making excuses' part and the rest

Lewis's trilemma is a false trichotomy.
But I wouldn't expect Christians to be capable of going beyond black-and-white thinking.

>Christians
pffffft
there are next to no christians here, just a bunch of 20 yo who are rebelling against their peers, who are non-religious

it's an identity thing, a cry for attention

this whole """"debate"""" is 100% pointless