What does Veeky Forums think of hydrogen powered cars for the future? Would it be possible and how much would it cost?
Hydrogen powered cars
Matthew Hall
Other urls found in this thread:
toyota.de
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
twitter.com
Owen Roberts
Given the high price of fuel cells and the difficulties with handling hydrogen, it seems hard to imagine much of a future for them. Battery-electric vehicles appear to be heading to dominate short-rage travel, so hydrogen vehicles would have to compete with petrol and diesel on longer trips.
I am surprised that no-one has discussed vehicles running fuel cells on other fuels. Methanol in particular would seem like a reasonable option.
Tyler Williams
NASA tested Stirling engines and said they were great
Justin Kelly
>NASA tested Stirling engines and said they were great
What? When did that happen?
The only NASA research I've head of on Stirling engines was their radioisotope Stirling generator for spacecraft, and that thing got canned in a budget cut a few years back (which was a shame).
All of the work on Stirling-powered cars I can recall happens decades ago, was primarally done in Japan, and found the manufacturing costs were too expensive and the power density couldn't be made high enough.
Nathan Peterson
>What does Veeky Forums think of hydrogen powered cars for the future?
probs: high pressure fuel tank, big heatex due to small temp difference for cooling, efficency of high temp fuel cells would be 10-15% better
>Would it be possible and how much would it cost?
toyota.de
didnt find it on the .com site
>= 80k euro
Zachary Long
If obtaining hydrogen through electrolysis, why not use electricity directly to charge a battery instead of converting it to hydrgen and back again?
Blake Powell
Hydrogen is a fuel conveyor, it is not a fuel source. Today hydrogen is created from electrolysis of water by burning methane. Unless you can explain where the energy is going to originally come from hydrogen is useless.
James Roberts
Because batteries give terrible energy densities, and take a long time to charge.
>Unless you can explain where the energy is going to originally come from hydrogen is useless.
Renewables and/or nuclear plants, same as the electricity to charge batteries will.
Kayden Bell
Then why not say 'what are your thoughts on nuclear power and renewable energy?'
Aaron Brown
>electrolysis
...is producing about 5% of hydrogen.
en.wikipedia.org
...is producing 90%
Robert Torres
methanol is expensive as fuck though. It's only used in high end sports vehicles. Ethanol would be a realistic replacement for gas, or a mixture (which we already have). Ford himself said he wanted the automobile to be powered by ethanol. But hopefully we see advancements in electric cars in the next 10 years so Exxon and shit finally stop being the Jewish dominators of the US.
Adrian Wright
Hydrogen is shit
en.wikipedia.org
Hydrogen storage and transport are still unsolved.
Cryogenic storage adds additional costs. Hydrogen limits the life of storage vessels.
That's not true at all.
en.wikipedia.org
>Liquid hydrogen has less energy density by volume than hydrocarbon fuels such as gasoline by approximately a factor of four. This highlights the density problem for pure hydrogen: there is actually about 64% more hydrogen in a liter of gasoline (116 grams hydrogen) than there is in a liter of pure liquid hydrogen (71 grams hydrogen).
>Compressed hydrogen, by comparison, is stored quite differently. Hydrogen gas has good energy density by weight, but poor energy density by volume versus hydrocarbons, hence it requires a larger tank to store. A large hydrogen tank will be heavier than the small hydrocarbon tank used to store the same amount of energy, all other factors remaining equal. Increasing gas pressure would improve the energy density by volume, making for smaller, but not lighter container tanks (see hydrogen tank).
A heavier tank means less mileage.
Before you state that the byproduct of hydrogen combustion or even fuel cell is clean, it is not. Water vapour is a green house gas worse than CO[math]_2[/math].
Matthew Morgan
Current industrial scale production method for hydrogen is the crack methane. Which means you are still releasing a lot of CO2 into the air.
It is also incredibly inefficient. You would do better to just burn the methane in a power plant to charge electric cars.
Christian Butler
>Given the high price of fuel cells
You CAN just burn hydrogen in a conventional internal combustion engine, a turbine, or fire a boiler in a steam engine.
Anthony Hernandez
radioisotope Stirling generator? that sounds incredible!
Aiden Baker
>build more nuclear power plants
>wait for petrol shortage to drive petrol prices up
>use electric processes to make hydrocarbon fuels out of air and water
why even hydrogen?
Luis Evans
>methanol is expensive as fuck though. It's only used in high end sports vehicles.
That would change if cars started running on it. The real advantage of methonal is that can be consumed in fuel cells, which results in far better efficacy then trying to burn it in ICEs, but it's fairly easy to store.
>Before you state that the byproduct of hydrogen combustion or even fuel cell is clean, it is not. Water vapour is a green house gas worse than CO2.
That's... technically correct, but also absolutely wrong. Water vapor is in a very rapid equilibrium in the atmosphere, so burning hydrogen won't actually increase the water vapor in the air.
>You CAN just burn hydrogen in a conventional internal combustion engine, a turbine, or fire a boiler in a steam engine.
Yeah, but the poor efficiency of a ICE will just make your storage problems even worse. And turbines are expensive.
>radioisotope Stirling generator? that sounds incredible!
Yep.
From what I understand, the gains in power density would be okay, but the big gain was that they only needed a quarter of the plutonium.
They canceled it in 2013 though.
Jaxson Ortiz
Top five reasons why the hydrogen economy will not pan out:
1. HYDROGEN IS NOT A FUEL SUPPLY
2. HIBRODEN IS NOP A FEUL SPPLUY
3. HARGOBLEM LD NIY E VULL ZUBLY
4. MIDROHEM SI WOB DA FEWL ESPLAY
5. GYDROHEM NIZ TON A FWELL PUSPLY
Jace Green
i mean like no matter what you use its the same amount of energy to you know move the car so like why does it matter what you use at the end of the day its the same energy
Oliver Nelson
>That's... technically correct, but also absolutely wrong. Water vapor is in a very rapid equilibrium in the atmosphere, so burning hydrogen won't actually increase the water vapor in the air.
Depends where the Hydrogen is coming from.
Jaxson Green
Thanks so much for the replies Veeky Forums btw i am the op :)
Ayden Foster
Put something FLAMMABLE into a CAR? That's suicide!
Gabriel Bailey
> implying a full tank of gasoline is inflammable
Xavier King
>Depends where the Hydrogen is coming from.
What? No.
Why would you think that?
Joseph Bailey
You there. Tell me what you think inflammable means. Go.
Evan Ross
elon musk says fuck fuel cells
hydrogen is shit, you know it is constantly leaking right?
Robert Lopez
methanol is easier to make and in some cases a precursor to ethanol production. The reason ethanol is so much cheaper is the scale of production and huge subsidizes.
Henry Jenkins
Where the hydrogen comes from is important, and the major source of it is not environmentally friendly.
see Depending on the feedstock one one ton of hydrogen produced will also produce 9 to 12 tons of CO[math]_2[/math]. Also this hydrogen is being formed from fossil fuels.
Again a buildup of water vapour from human use can cause higher temperatures leading to greater water vapour in turn leading to a positive feedback loop. Not to mention all the CO[math]_2[/math] that is made from feedstock which would only strengthen this loop.
Ayden Wood
Hydrogen powered cars - yes.
Fuel cells? I love the idea but the technology is expensive and may be better suited for stationary applications or high tech mobile applications eg space craft, satellite.
If we do hydrogen powered cars, why not just use mini gas turbines.
Aiden Reed
>Depending on the feedstock one one ton of hydrogen produced will also produce 9 to 12 tons of CO22. Also this hydrogen is being formed from fossil fuels.
Split water with renewables.
Again a buildup of water vapour from human use can cause higher temperatures leading to greater water vapour in turn leading to a positive feedback loop.
If only there were some feedback loop that would stop water vapor from causing out of control warming. I can't think of any. Oh wait, rain.
>Not to mention all the CO22 that is made from feedstock which would only strengthen this loop.
Split water with renewables
Josiah Sanders
>why not just use mini gas turbines.
Gas turbines are also very expensive.
>Again a buildup of water vapour from human use can cause higher temperatures leading to greater water vapour in turn leading to a positive feedback loop.
Again, that's not how it works. The amount of water in the atmosphere is tightly controlled by the temperature.