What is the oldest story involving a gay romance ever told?

What is the oldest story involving a gay romance ever told?

m y d i a r y t b h f a m

homosexuality is a modern invention

Plato - Symposium is the oldest one I can think of but I'm sure there's older examples

Herakles and Hylas in the Argonautica is fairly explicit in it's sexual romance between two men, in addition to the crush Orpheus has on one of the Boreads who join the Argonauts.

the term homosexuality is a modern term, the feelings and behavior are not.

Maybe you confine this feeling and behavior to reductionist modern terms that these acts don't really adhere to though.

The Iliad. Achilles and Patroclus were lovers. Fite me.

David and Jonathan in the Bible
Achilles and Patroclus in the Iliad
And on & on & on

Genesis 3

sappho? not sure of timeline

Gay romance doesn't exist, gay sex is just mutual masturbation.

The famous greek "gay" stories like Akhilleus and Patroclus are actually just male friendships, a rarity and somewhat maligned phenomenon in the post-industrial and post-feminist world.

What?

If there are people who have exclusive heterosexual and homosexual feelings now then surely the same would apply to back then, the only difference is that some may have acted against their instinct, such as was the case for gay men centuries ago who unhappily married women, just because that was what society expected. Human behavior has remained the same, the only thing that has changed is terminology and technology.

Got to love when the Protestants try and "clean up" any and every story to try and make it look like homosexuality is something new and invented.

Go back to /pol/ you protestant heretic.

Why did they both have extremely passionate romances with women while they both also loved one another then?

Romance doesn't exist desu, its just a way to justify the chemicals in your brain telling you to fuck and raise children. If people just apply those feelings to the same sex then whats the harm?

>gay sex is just mutual masturbation.

Are you retarded? You clearly don't know the mechanisms of sex or the multiple ways people have sex, and if sex requires reproduction then every sterile heterosexual couple or couple who wears condoms is simply partaking in mutual masturbation as well.

Jeez, here is a glaring example of the American Educational system folks.

Gilgamesh and Enkidu

That's an ignorant conception of the human experience user, as we are clearly more simplistic and ignorant in regards to human expression now than we were in the ancient world

This is theost ignorant perception the modern world has foisted upon humanity. Do you seriously not understand how fucking absurd what you just said is user?

Because believe it or not, one can in fact love another person beyond base carnal lust.

It's just that ever since the advent of industrial society and the dissolution of village living, having strong and good friendships, that is to say love other men has become verboten.
Only if you stop reading everything with your lens of so-called "queer theory".
>Human behavior has remained the same, the only thing that has changed is terminology and technology.
Television = Schizophrenia
Air pollution = Fucked endocrine system
Stress of modern living = Increased cortisol, lowered test, possibly higher estradiol

Not to mention the tendency, following the birth of industry and the nuclear family to associate love and companionship w/ sex due to a lack of fulfilling male friendship/camraderie

>chemicals in the brain are absurd

This is why I pray for the American education system.

Achilles and Patroclus were not lovers, is what I was getting at. They loved each other, but they didn't have sex

The snake is an allegory for homosexuality

>Because believe it or not, one can in fact love another person beyond base carnal lust.
So why is gay love illegitimate and only counts as masterbation

>accuses of being an ideologue
>is an ideologue

>television =schziophrenia
What the actual fuck

In other words, they were good friends, which is exactly what I'm getting at. Following ca. the 19th century, this notion that a deep and intense friendship between two men must necessarily be homosexual, retroactively applying it to classical depictions of male friendship.

I think you can easily see how damaging and absurd that is.

You seriously barely understand how the human consciousness works in any regard, yet you've developed a ridiculous sense of arrogance in regards to your perceived knowledge of it. We do not experience love as some kind of placebo to make us reproduce. Reproduction is infact among the lowest and most insignificant aspects of human sexuality. You are dogmatically adherent to a reductionist conception of human sexuality that literally only serves to reject all meaningful and uniquely human aspects of sex, yet you'll talk like you're some kind of exlert in these matters when6all you're actually doing is spouting off hilariously ignorant thoughts that yiu don't even realize make you look like a fool

Do you have any evidence they specifically didn't fuck? Because Greeks fucked all the time according to historical evidence.

But they didn't according to historical evidence it was also looked down on, especially if you were the bottom, plato ridiculed the men who did it, telling them GROW UP.

Brokeback Mount Olympus.
Am I rite

So people can fuck for reasons other than reproduction or carnal lust. And yet gays cant? Your own logic doesn't make sense bro

So they did and enjoyed it so uch Plato specifically had to mention it? But homosexual relationships are only a modern invention?

I love when bigots dont have any sense of logic :)

This. Modern society is a giant onion. The Greeks and other early civilizations are the closest we can get to the core.

Macchiavelli describes his italy as a different world than roman italy due to Christianity. We have that plus the enlightenment, plus post-modernism to peel back to get to what is "natural" or not. "Homosexuality" and sexual orientation did not exist to the Greeks (who more less stuck their d in anything), so it should be viewed with skepticism.

Yes, as I've actually read the Iliad several times and understand the dynamic between the characters in a great deal of depth. Achilles was a God who had motherly affection towards Patroclus, who spoiled and doted on him as his favored mortal. You're basing your entire belief of their homosexuality on anachronistic perceptions that don't apply to the Iliad in any way

You are quite unread.

Homosexuality is an immoral and unnatural act: it's pure narcissism and iniquity.

I literally implied the exact opposite of that user, that all human sexuality, including the sexuality between two men, is far more complex than desiring reproduction

You mistake homosexuality as sodomy.
Sodomy has always existed.
Homosexuality, as some sort of inherent identity as well as romantic love between two men are modern inventions.
Men have fucked other men forever.
Men deluding themselves into thinking that fucking needs recognition from others and wanting a long term relationship (which even now doesn't happen) is very new.

Are you sure you aren't just placing your own perspective into the narrative? You are claiming ALL classical literature is devoid of legitimate homosexual relationships. That seems like your own ideological assessment

>Men deluding themselves into thinking that fucking needs recognition
Which is different from wanting to engage with another man romantically. I mean, you yourself said that carnal lust is one of the shittiest aspect of human sezuallity, why cant people be romantic homosexuallity? That's on you to demonstrate friend

I'm speaking very specifically of Achilles and Patroclus user

The thought that homosexuality is immoral stems entirely from Jewish thought. Christians got it from the Jews as well as the Muslims.

Go spread your Torah elsewhere.

i dont remember them fucking each other

The original Mycenaeans were Israeli pilgrims user

But it is devoid of homosexual relationships. There isn't a single one.
Friendship isn't cranal love and fervent friendship has been a theme reoccurring in Greek and Roman literature a lot. But it was never either sodomy (which it might have been, but it wasn't) or romantic love between two men (because the very idea was to most men for thousands of years something completely nonsensical).
So the oldest homosexual relationship in a story probably dates 60 years back.
>Which is different from wanting to engage with another man romantically.
It has appeared simultaneously in culture.
>I mean, you yourself said that carnal lust is one of the shittiest aspect of human sezuallity, why cant people be romantic homosexuallity?
I didn't. I don't think it's shitty in itself, but in case of sodomy it literally is.
>That's on you to demonstrate friend
I don't think there has never been a passion between two men before the 50s, but it did not appear in literature as such before that time. No, virtue ethics and Aristotle.

That's cool but earlier you or someone else claimed that ALL classical references to homosexuality precluded romance and romance itself is mutually exclusive with homosexuality. So you dealt with one story but you bigots have a tal order

Doesn't Plato in the Symposium talk about romantic and sexual relationships involve us trying to find our other halves? And gay men are in fact the maniliest?

>in case of sodomy it literally is.
Why?

He does, but it's more related to boy love. He's pretty contradictory to himself so it changes depending on the book.

So its not completely devoid of love or romance, so the Greeks do in fact deal with homosexuality in this sense

Because poop comes out of butt and with sodomy penis goes where the poop isWhich classical friendship was actually romantic sodomy?

If you wish to include homosexual pedophilia to it, sure.

Why can't people just answer a simple question without feeling the need to divulge their very lengthy opinions on the subject at hand without answering the question.

Why must we live in the era where everyone assumes everyone else cares about your personal attitudes, feelings, or opinions? I know I couldn't give a crap about what any of you think.

Hardly the first, but Satyricon by Petronius, considered perhaps the first novel ever, is about a roman noble and his boy lover. Probably the most fleshed out gay love story I've ever read from so long ago, and it's also a fantastic account of systematic homosexuality in rome. The book is overall hilarious and features all sorts of deviant sexuality including femdom and use of dildos.

I think it's because the new generation, or millenials if you will are entitled and all feel they are special, and so they feel that their opinions must matter. Thank you Mister Rogers for putting it into the minds of countless autists that they are special and ought to share that specialness with the world.

Move out of Northern Lousiana and meet an actual gay person. They will tell you differently.

>its just a way to justify the chemicals in your brain telling you to fuck and raise children.
the chemicals does not exits, unless you are an undergraduate believing in scientific realism.
chemicals is a way to justify the chemicals in your brain telling you to fuck and raise children.

All the homosexuals who indulge in sex I've met were like primitive animals, looking only for the next fuck and their relationships never lasted longer than two years, and those had massive amounts of cheating.

>unless you are an undergraduate believing in scientific realism
Would you...not do that?

...

>gays are autistics that just want to feel special
>listen to my rant about literature on a Veeky Forums board

Because you are a platonist, aristotelian, christian, kantian, cartesian etc.

This is different from heterosexuality how? And keep in mind that the infamous "gay underground" of yesteryear, a scene built from adversity, is still dissolving. Old gay culture was kept under wraps, and in many places was criminal, so of course there are still traces of promiscuity and relationships built on nothing more than sex exploration. Just like bootlegged liquor is more likely to give you alcohol poisoning.

The epic of Gilgamesh.

Wants Aristotle an empiricist who would praise our advances in understanding the physical world? Including the chemicals in our heads?

We're all animals, to think otherwise is called snowflake syndrome.

>We're all animals

Speak for yourself.

Whatever you say Aristotle.

>homosexuals who indulge in sex

out of curiosity how many homosexuals do you know who don't "indulge" (lol) in sex?

the post you are responding to is correct

>This is different from heterosexuality how?
Because here marriage is still a thing.
>And keep in mind that the infamous "gay underground" of yesteryear, a scene built from adversity, is still dissolving.
No, it's stronger than it used to be, at least here.
>Old gay culture was kept under wraps, and in many places was criminal, so of course there are still traces of promiscuity and relationships built on nothing more than sex exploration.
That's how it's always going to function.
Homosexuality is inherently promiscuous and you will never see the day where homosexual relationship will mirror a marriage.
>Just like bootlegged liquor is more likely to give you alcohol poisoning.
It's been 50 years without bootleg and it's only getting more deviant than it used to.
3

Are they Preists?

homosexuality has been existing since we got sexual organs, even other mamals and reptiles show that behaviour.

The word may be a modern invention but not the behaviour it refers too, so the content of his post isn't correct.

>having sex with the same gender is homosexual
wew

No, but they are Catholics.

>behaviour it refers too
it refers to isn't*
sorry, quick typing

you know three fags who don't have sex? Did they tell you this or are you just assuming because they don't have hankys in their back pockets? where the fuck do you live man?

don't be silly user, you're going retard

>you know three fags who don't have sex?
Yes, believe it or not religious beliefs are a strong thing.
>Did they tell you this or are you just assuming because they don't have hankys in their back pockets?
They told me that because we were talking about it. It's pretty simple.
>where the fuck do you live man?
Why does it matter?

fact: all fags have sex all of the time.

fact: catholics lie about sex with boys constantly.

i'm guessing you live in ireland?

No.

>Because here marriage is still a thing.
Marriage is becoming an increasingly conservative and traditionalist ideal. "Hip" young people of any sexuality are avoiding it and going for all sorts of alternative relationships. The only difference between modern heterosexual people and homos, is homos were never given the option to do it in the first place like members of polite society.

>No, it's stronger than it used to be, at least here.
I'm not referring to people walking in parades or teenagers holding hands. Those are in fact the opposite of a gay underground. I'm talking about strangers fucking each other in the park, the huge urban communities which spawned the AIDS epidemic. The kind of shit behavior which is disappearing.
>It's been 50 years without bootleg and it's only getting more deviant than it used to.
50 years ago gay men invented the modern BDSM scene and had their porn produced by the meanest most violent mafia members. Now they chat with women's talk show hosts. The biggest cause of gay "degeneracy" has always been it's seperateness from normal society. Your claim that gay relationships are mutual masturbation, on the contrary gay individuals would prob view heterosex that way.

flyover?

if it's not important than just say where you live instead of being rude about it

Why does it matter?

I can't imagine a country in the world where

1. you would know three openly gay men who identify as catholics
2. these three are candid enough and comfortable enough talking about sexual matters (despite their catholicism) to inform you that they are celibate

i guess the candidness of the gay men suggests you live in the US, but idk, I just find point number 2 too strange to imagine

Umm probably some story about Alexander and Hephaestion.

Gilgamesh and Enkidu

>>Marriage is becoming an increasingly conservative and traditionalist ideal.
lel no

men accept more and more open marriage.

Hadrian and Antoninus

Bin yourselves.

Hadrian was gay?

I dunno... James Deans biographies?

This was my answer

>OP is a faggot

This is the correct answer.

It's central to Gilgamesh literally the first story we have. And the Illiiad which prior to Gilgamesh was our earliest story.

Came here to say that.