Kill me

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

Stopped working on that caffeine variant because I'm worried that my methlab type setup will get raided
Will probably have to use a university lab, which means forking over royalties to them on the new drug once it's developed

Kill me.

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w8t4u
w8t4u

pretty sure the cops will only suspect a meth lab if you're dealing meth and they gather evidence of meth selling.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

They track precursor chemicals, some of which I'm using unrelatedly.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

caffeine varient

Tell me more

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Please tell me more. I don't think you'll get raided for precursor chems, you might get a visit but nothing to be scared of unless you're doing other unrelated things.

happy_sad
happy_sad

Drug to knock dexamphetamine variants off the market.

Well, I am operating an unauthorized research laboratory, so there's that.

likme
likme

I don't get it. Is it even illegal to synthesize chemicals in a methlab type setup if you're not actually producing any controlled substances?

SniperGod
SniperGod

Zoning and licensing laws is my understanding.

King_Martha
King_Martha

Where you're from would probably help on the law side of thing. Is there anything preventing you from getting a license ?

iluvmen
iluvmen

Or move your lab to a rv à la breaking bad ?

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Depends on what you're using/storing, how you dispose of things, and if you have all safety precautions covered. "Lab" covers a lot of territory, but guaranteed you'd have the EPA, OSHA, and a slew of Feds up your ass permanently if you're in the US, and discovered, if you have certain chemicals.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

I'm literally cooking up chemicals methlab style in a shed in a residential neighborhood and testing them on my adderall junkie friends. I don't think I can get a license for this shit lol.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

They track precursor chemicals, some of which I'm using unrelatedly.

Wut? AlphaBay you larping faggot.

JunkTop
JunkTop

Sounds legit and like you are totally good to go.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

Is it even illegal to synthesize chemicals in a methlab type setup if you're not actually producing any controlled substances?

Yeah, the precursors are also controlled, and these days you do ANYTHING except play viday the government assumes you're probably a criminal or terrorist. It fucking sucks, back as a kid you could still buy same really cool toy chemistry sets - now that entire hobby is just gone.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

Literally who.

Kek.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

You need all kinds of licensing to legally operate a scientific laboratory. There are health and safety standards. Proper waste disposal rules. Tracking and procurement rules.

OP thinks he's the next big thing in pharma cooking up bathtub crank for his junkie friends. I bet he has no clue what chemicals and side products he's actually giving his friends.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Right now it's variants of acetalyized caffeine.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

The ephedrine or psuedoephedrine will get you a nice jail sentence. Owning a lab doesn't require a license, DIY labs is a thing, and a lot of people have home labs - I read a fascinating thread somewhere where a guy was genetically engineering bioluminescent plants at home, and was in potential trouble because one of the plants he was growing was illegal, or something like that - but his lab itself wasn't illegal.

But yeah, you don't want the state and the feds knowing about you.

And, no college lab is going to let you work on an amphetamine variant. Not without permission from the Feds, and good luck doing that outside of a Ph.D program, and you'd have to pray big pharma wouldn't shut you down in a heartbeat by pulling that lab's funding.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

I'm not using ephedrine. The problem is that I'm using stuff that's used to turn morphine into heroin.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Nonsense, home labs are perfectly legal.

5mileys
5mileys

Depends on if what I'm doing is considered industrial activity or not.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

I believe that's what you're trying to make. I don't believe you're delivering anything close to a clean product. Also realize that for all your concern about the legality of your precursors, giving your synthetic product to people is what you can really get fucked for.

Techpill
Techpill

Depends on what you're using. If it's an acid, it may not be illegal to have, or make, but handling it may be the issue, and you'd have several Fed and state agencies up your ass. I'm assuming it's acetic acid, from your other comment, and that shit's not really something they want laying around neighborhoods.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Doesn't matter. A "lab" requires no license to own or operate. It's how you handle certain materials, safety standards, etc. Tons of people experiment at home, biohacking and labpunk is a thing. Nobody is going to be arrested for having a lab, but how you handle some substances, like acids, can get you in some serious trouble, especially if it could get into the ground water, or kids could get into it. Also, how you dispose of waste material is a big issue, and if you need air cleaners for certain reactions.

But you know your lab is a problem, so this is all moot, anyway.

cum2soon
cum2soon

So you're acetylating caffeine with acetic anhydride? Is it any good?

Legally I think you're fine, but you may need to hire a lawyer one day and convince a judge if you ever get a visit from the cops.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

I'm not 100% certain of where it's inserting in the ring, but I know that it's inserting. My main problem is temperature control.

It is. I'm using that in conjunction with a platinum catalyst and a heating element to pop open the Nitrogen rings to initiate acetilization, but I have to watch the temp like a motherfucker.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

This and the FDA the instant you try to sell even a penny's worth of it to anyone

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Gonna have to look into that whole subculture.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to go for my PhD...

I'm told that some of the variants are good, the problem is that I can't get consistency. I'm trying to pop open the right spot on those fucking rings and it's just not consistent. I have to make sure to pop a double carbon bond without knocking off a nitrogen.

FastChef
FastChef

Bruh I can tell you right now you're making synthetic vomit. You can't get consistency because you're making dozens of different products with zero control. This is why outside of junkie science we have things like HPLC and chromatography columns at a minimum.

I have to make sure to pop a double carbon bond without knocking off a nitrogen.
You're "popping" everything at once.

MPmaster
MPmaster

I fucking know I'm popping everything at once. That's why I need a better lab. I don't even know which carbons my shit is attaching to.

Techpill
Techpill

That's why I need a better lab. I don't even know which carbons my shit is attaching to.
I think you need to learn what you're doing first.

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Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

I have a vague idea of what I'm doing desu.

Flameblow
Flameblow

would it be healthier just doing widely used amphetamines instead
what are you going for by making a variation of caffeine?

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

In theory it should be cheaper to produce in bulk and it's less likely, in theory, to be a stepping stone to actual speed. Plus caffeine is already in everything.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

makes sense
is it stronger or longer lasting for something?

happy_sad
happy_sad

I can't definitively say.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

You haven't really addressed the issue that you're feeding a bunch of byproducts to your junkie friends. Unless you are looking at a bunch of chromatography of each of your intermediate products and your final result you have no fucking idea what you're feeding them, and whatever it is it's probably ten things too.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

Can't afford chromatography. Probably why I need a real lab.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

So why play make believe? I bet you can't even tell me what you expect the acetylization to do, let alone what it might do depending on where it ends up.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

It makes it easier for chemicals to pass through the bloodbrain barrier, even non-chemists know that.

As to what it might do, depends on if it fucks up a functional group or not, which I'm trying to avoid.

5mileys
5mileys

If it's not meth and they raid you what is the problem?

Methshot
Methshot

Where are you trying to put it, user?

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StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

That carbon double bonded with the nitrogen.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

Alternately I think I might be fucking up the Ketone on the central ring.

happy_sad
happy_sad

Caffeine already crosses the blood-brain barrier pretty fucking easily, it's both water and fat soluble right?

And even if acetylation does promote transbarrier transfer, will it interfere with its ability to interfere with Adenosine receptors?

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

The answer to that I don't know yet.

I'm assuming that more permeability is better.

SniperGod
SniperGod

That's gonna fuck up the homology to the ribose base of adenosine for sure, desu

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Stupidasole
Stupidasole

Maybe, but it's there or fuck up one of those ketones, or pop in right where a Hydrogen goes.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

you should make an energy drink and sell it to headshops

StonedTime
StonedTime

The whole point of caffeine is that it has two oxygens at juuust the right distance from each other to "look like" the adenine tail of adenosine AND a ribose base with all the nitrogens just so. You can't pop a keytone or you'll fuck up the adenine-mimicry and you can't just break the ribose base either.

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Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

That just leaves the hydrogen, which means more controlled heat and no platinum. I don't know if that's viable though.

Nojokur
Nojokur

But you're going to alter the way it interacts with the... four? main adenosine channels a lot by doing even that.

Take a look at this caffeine molecule for instance. Notice anything strange about it?

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BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

The CH3 for one.

And yeah, I know. It's a bitch of a puzzle.

Techpill
Techpill

That's right, it's not caffeine at all, it's theobromide. It's the simplest variation of caffeine there is--a single demethylization and that's it. Clearly nothing to enhance or impede its ability to negatively mimic adenosine--the ribose base is intact with its four nitrogens and those two phenols are still there. Clinical studies have even shown it to antagonize adenosine mediated processes.

But theobromine has almost no wakening effect on people--that tiny change sucked all the go out of the molecule just by altering which of the four channels it antagonized the most.

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SniperWish
SniperWish

Ugh. But I want it to be fucking simple. If it works with sticking it onto the double bond then I can manage quality control so much better by heating the acid separately from the caffeine and platinum then slowly mixing it in and stirring.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

jesus dude, people like you make me think we actually need the dea/fda

you want it to be fucking simple? fucking off yourself before you off your "friends"

you ARE giving them cancer, right now.

Emberburn
Emberburn

What? No I'm not. Of course I want it to be simple, what manufacturer doesn't want a simple process?

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

You can't pop a keytone or you'll fuck up the adenine-mimicry and you can't just break the ribose base either.

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Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

if you want a simple (ie PRECISE) process, you have to do the complicated work of developing it. If you can't calculate and prescribe the exact temperature zones and reagent/catalyst ratios necessary to get exactly the result you want . . . you'll have to do the experimental testing to verify and basically brute force the methods necessary to get consistent results. Half-assing shit and jumping straight to human testing is a recipe for disaster.

the kind of chemistry you're doing might work adequately for known syntheses, but what you're doing is a fucking crapshoot

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

That's the problem with tacking it onto a hydrogen's place. I can't determine which hydrogen spot it latches onto with my current methods, and thus I have no guarantee of any kind of purity.

What I can do right now:

Pop hydrogen atoms off of one or both molecules
Pop carbon double bonds
Not have the concentrated acid explode in my face

The limitations of a fucking shed, man.

hairygrape
hairygrape

caffeine variant
Drug to knock dexamphetamine variants off the market.

Why are you trying to use a caffeine variant to mimic dexamphetamines? Caffeine is already a superb drug for its uses. Amphetamines are also superb drugs for their uses. But the two do not have the same or even similar uses. Attempting to preserve caffeine's adenosine mimicry seems unlikely to produce an amphetamine-like effect instead.

Shouldn't you just be trying to mimic amphetamines?

SniperGod
SniperGod

Mostly because I lost a friend to amphetamine variants and I want to produce something that could have been a safer alternative and stopped it from happening.

happy_sad
happy_sad

I definitely am behind your motives, and I dig your experimentation for selfish reasons as well. But you are fighting fire with fire, and that requires precision. Nature already has provided us with a broad set of xanthine sources with varying profiles. Not a replacement for amphetamines in the strictest sense, but certainly a safer alternative than what you are capable of doing at present. Save up for more equipment, or dedicate yourself to getting into a situation where you can utilize more resources. If you follow the right processes there are actually laws that help you maintain possession of the intellectual property you develop with federal grant funded research done in university environments.

even if you succeed in finding a coherent process for a novel xanthine in your shed, you can't achieve your goal of providing a safer alternative without the expensive equipment you currently lack to analyze your results.

Skullbone
Skullbone

you won't be able to monetize your invention from your current situation, so you are worried about losing something you cannot obtain anyway. if you really want to make a difference you may need to sacrifice "royalities".

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

What you're designing is the third or fourth layer of response to the problem of amphetamine addiction. Tackling prevention by reducing prescription quantities and frequencies would go first, and rehab/detox funding would go second. I actually think adenosine channel blocking is an interesting area of neuromedicine, but if this is about someone's adderall addiction that got out of hand please know you aren't going to do shit in a shed but feed people carcinogenic goo.

Emberburn
Emberburn

what are you testing the drugs on? Or are you only using lc/ms?

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