How would a video game be made that is on par with literature?

How would a video game be made that is on par with literature?

Movies, music ,books and games can all be enjoyed without stories; movies for their visuals, music for their melodies, books for their prose and games for their game mechanics(gameplay).

But films, books and music are all enhanced by a (good) story. So why is video games the exception? Why are 90% of video games extremely mediocre, have great gameplay but piss story or great story but next to none gameplay?

The last of us was a great story, I watched my brother play it and was sucked in and enjoyed it so much. But I can admit the gameplay absolutely sucked ass. Just a generic cover shooter. Like the equivalent of jrpgs, except it tlou had a well written story.

Music can have a great story and a good melody, films can have great visuals and good story, books can have great prose and good story so I ask again. Why can't video games have great gameplay and a good story?
I don't believe it's impossible for a video game to be more than fun.

Best I've seen so far are two models: the 2D Zelda model and the Tactics model.

2D Zelda model: mostly gameplay, but a cast of supporting characters who are eccentric enough around you where you grow somewhat attached to them anyways. Especially Link's Awakening and Oracle of Ages. Literary? No, but more literary than most comic books which is a good starting point.

Tactics: Final Fantasy Tactics, some Final Fantasy numeral games, Fire Emblem. Large cast of characters who interact with each other in a linear game with chance for deviation from the story. e.g. Fire Emblem, story is linear but characters will form bonds in the game with real, human dialogue between them based on how much you use them together. Literary? No, but a start.

A literary game would pick one of these WORKING models and simply make a more intellectual story, with story more integrated into the game actions, rather than just "kill the boss".

The fact these two classes of games actually do leave an emotional impact on the player shouldn't be ignored. It can surely be taken much further.

(oh and also maybe Majora's Mask -- the other 3D zeldas leave an emotional impact but the reasons feel to be different, such as from an overbearing story or cute chibi art style)

Movies can enhance, underline, and expand the story with visuals, and similar for the other mediums. It's artful when a book's prose, its rhythm or diction, affects the reader in a way that's connected to the story.

Games need to have a good link between story and gameplay. However video games seem to be terrible at linking the two. Most games, to tell a story, push it along by just stopping the gameplay and playing a cutscene or having the player read ingame text. Then it stops being a game and then you just get bored wonder why the creator didn't just write a story or make a movie.

The fat guy from Funhaus made a point once- a video game can be great without a story (Pac-Man), but a video game ceases to be a video game without gameplay.
One is clearly more vital than the other. Furthermore, interactivity, the foundation of gameplay, is rather at odds with the notion of narrative. It's hard to definitively tell you what's happening and why if the experience is built around you being able to decide that for yourself. Games thrive on non-linear action, and plot involves linear sequences of events. The only consistent workaround is to have multiple credible story paths, and that requires a lot of creativity and disk space. That might be the ultimate reason for the disconnect- cutscenes are cheaper than immersive environments.

I think this is what games like Heavy Rain and Beyond: Two Souls tried to accomplish.

>How would a video game be made that is on par with literature?

I assume you're just talking about "great" literature. 'Cause shit, I had a much deeper experience playing The Witness than I did reading Atlas Shrugged.

>Movies, music ,books and games can all be enjoyed without stories; movies for their visuals, music for their melodies, books for their prose and games for their game mechanics(gameplay).

Keep in mind visuals, music, and text are all potentially in a video game as well, so that's all part of the experience.

>So why is video games the exception? Why are 90% of video games extremely mediocre, have great gameplay but piss story or great story but next to none gameplay?

is a fine (maybe incomplete) answer, but I would also add that while most video games are shit, the same thing is true for any major art field/industry. 90% of books and movies being released today are turbopleb garbage. Add that to the fact that video games are a relatively young industry compared to the others, and the people in it are still figuring out what's possible within the medium.

>Why can't video games have great gameplay and a good story?

A major hurdle is the perception both within and without the industry that video games are entertainment, not art (a dichotomy I question in the first place).
A lot of the people in the vg industry are people with backgrounds in computer science/programming and maybe visual/graphic design as well, and the more "creative" ones are still pulling their influences from film, the way early film tried so hard to just be theater. But even people well-versed in our traditional idea of storytelling wouldn't be able to make a video game that takes advantage of the unique way in which stories and experiences can be generated through music, visuals, and interactivity.
My main problem with the answer provided by is that, while I agree that interactivity and linear storytelling seem at odds with each other, I think that's more a problem with our inability to conceptualize ways of reconciling them.
I don't think a video game that wishes to be cohesive and compelling necessary needs to go the Undertale route of multiple paths, though that can be successful. I've played an elusive few great games that guided me (the player) through some kind of over-arching narrative (though the structure of that narrative must necessarily differ from our traditional understanding of narrative) without making me feel like I was just running down a narrow hallway.

>I don't believe it's impossible for a video game to be more than fun.

Me neither. But I think people also put fun and depth at odds with each other (see: entertainment vs. art; also, why comic works aren't regarded as highly as tragic/dramatic ones). People unfairly compare the experience they get from playing a good, interesting video game to the experience they get from a book, which, past a certain extent, is unproductive.

>The Witness
>Undertale
Please stop.

Why do devs put headbob in to games? Do they ever walk around in real life and realize your vision is stable? Or are they chair bound for life in front of their computers?

That's why I think video games aren't art.

Video games are about the gameplay, that's the video game part.
The people who make video games are unable to find art in the gameplay.

Any time someone tries to make a video game more "art" it becomes less and less of a video game, it becomes more a short film, more of a heady cartoon.

Do you disagree that The Witness is a better product than a dogshit book like Atlas Shrugged?
Do you disagree with my assertion that Undertale has multiple routes built into its game design?

I didn't exactly profess a love for either game, merely that I played them both and used them as examples because most people who play video games today are familiar with them. Does seeing the word "Undertale" bandied about trigger you? Jesus, use your brain instead of mindlessly reacting to my posts, you fucking mong.

I would direct OP to the game Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons.

It's quite a short game, there is no comprehensible dialogue whatsoever, there are few cutscenes.

But it tells a poignant story.

Good God do you read for the fucking plot?

Occasionally, yeah. When I want a break from the heavy stuff.

The thing about the Brothers game is that it has a unique control system, too, so it isn't just the story that makes it different. It's the cooperation of different elements that make it artful.

Let me guess, it's two brothers and you waggle one controller stick for each or some bullshit?

This is the same crap like when they made you hold one button the whole game in ico so you would feel CONNECTED to the game

wow - so deep!

The only games that have approached the 'art' line are LucasArt graphic adventures, but only because they are a cinematic work where the user input doesn't change anything (for example, on almost every LucasArt game you can't lose unless you do it on purpose) and also, the whole games are perfect from a design point of view.

I played some of it a few weeks ago. Not only is the gameplay unique, but it's also thematically resonant. The mechanic of controlling two separate bodies is fun but pointless if not for the fact that the separate bodies perform different functions as well. There are certain tasks you can only succeed at by using one of the two brothers, because they each approach items and NPCs in their own characteristic fashion, which produces the sense that the two actually complement each other well and need each other to survive. That's how the game produces such a solid sense of their relationship without the aid of dialogue, and it's something I hope other game designers learn from.

I'm just gonna say that i hate tryhard indie devs that try to make cheap 'art'.

Video games do not need to be on par with literature. What makes video games unique, is that they are games. Now, everyone who has been a child will probably be able to say that the fantasy one constructs and interacts with, as one plays as a child, felt very profound. This is the strength of video games, the interaction with a virtual room. It doesn't just have to be about fun or adventure, it can be thought-provoking or moving. But the wrong idea is to somehow try to make Video games appear on-par with Literature.

>But films, books and music are all enhanced by a (good) story

This is bullshit, and i hope you know it.

>So why is video games the exception?

I disagree here too, video games are not the exception but just like in other mediums, the narrative serves a different purpose here. It is largely a motivator, an enhancer and reward for gameplay. They set up the action, contextualize the action and reward the action, they are the texture that surrounds the naked interaction with the game and thus provide your actions with meaning and purpose. This is unlike any other medium (atleast conventionally, maybe there are some experimental works). So more important than great prose or dialogue is the interaction between gameplay and the narrative, and the intelligent design of a narrative (which can also contextualize the gameplay thematically and thus create a united vision).

This is atleast how i see it. Also The Last of Us had a crap story.

controversial opinion over here

Have you read anything by Tevis Thompson? Not sure if you'd like him or not, but it could be worth reading anyway.

Haven't read anything on video games tbqh. I'll check it out

there is only one game that ever could be considered lit, and that is Dwarf Fortress. everything else is pleb swill. End of story.

oh great it's this autist again

Lawrence was absolutely on the money with that.

My personal opinion is that the lack of a set narrative makes video games the most difficult form of storytelling, as you're right--multiple credible storylines are difficult. Even games with a good, linear storyline (like Bioshock Infinite) are essentially undermined by the fact that the gameplay and story are separate from each other--the player's actions in the former do nothing to change the outcome of the latter.

However, if there is a game that succeeds in multiple storylines, then it has succeeded in a much greater task. Mass Effect 2 achieved that to some degree by giving you a hand in the character arcs of your crewmates, but it was still limited in that your only two choices were a story themed toward optimistic idealism or a story themed toward cynical pragmatism.

The other way you can look at a video game is to consider it a medium rather than an individual work. Just as an example, Minecraft itself doesn't have a story, but the Mad King Ryan Let's Plays by Achievement Hunter absolutely did--granted, it was one that was ad libbed, but still, it was a story nonetheless.

Of course, in comparison to books or tv series, video games are still incredibly shallow. But that's not due to an inherent limitation in video games--interactivity and the participation of the audience might drastically increase the difficulty of crafting a coherent storyline, but they do not preclude it, and they definitely increase the reward proportionately.

Shadow of the Colossus and Journey are the best attempts I can think of.

The narrative of a game can not be entirely formed by the game's creator. It has to come from the player's actions and their own thoughts and feelings about what is happening as they interact with the creation.

Sandboxes like Eve Online are also interesting in terms of the narratives that naturally emerge from human interactions within the virtual world. Is creating a new reality not art? I think it could be the highest art.

>
Movies, music ,books and games can all be enjoyed without stories; movies for their visuals, music for their melodies, books for their prose and games for their game mechanics(gameplay).

stopped reading there. good luck with your pleb discussion

>what are text-based games
You're fucking retarded, you know that ?

You put it better than I could have myself. Thank you for summing up my thoughts on the game when I fell short.

This is the most accurate post ITT. Video games are an entertainment medium, not an artistic medium. That doesn't make them bad or inferior to art, it makes them great and more people should embrace video games as entertainment instead of trying to shoehorn art into it. And this is why Zachary Barth and Team Hitbox are the medium's messiahs.

Why is it impossible for someone to orchestrate the progression of a level and all its elements with the same attention to detail as that of a great symphonic movement? I fail to see why the medium itself restricts the possibility aesthetic greatness.

What do you mean ? What kind of stuff are you looking for ? The last levels of Dustforce have some really godly design.

That's why I think games like fallout nv and somewhat skyrim, ignoring all it's weaknesses, are great because you can do what you want. Except skyrim doesn't let you kill everyone without mods.

>TLoU

It did seem like it came out of a YA novel but it didn't have cringy writing and you grew attached to the characters

looks less like you're mechanically gliding around

No. They're games. Would you expect "literary value" from chess? No. You expect gameplay. That's what games are good for, and its perfection is what they should aspire to.

i think bloodborne is better than lovecraft (even though of course lovecraft is its inspiration)

What are they? An outdated model that actually arent very fun to play and are basically just a fancy pick your own adventure. OP is looking for games that are actually real games

Dark souls one is the only literary game.

Narrative games are garbage.

>text based games
>not fun
I'm sorry you don't have an imagination, user.

Dark Souls is about as far from a "literary game" as you can get.

I've looked into this issue a bit, both as a player and a writer. It may seem cliche, but the best example imo of the seamless interaction between gameplay and narrative is BioShock. Unfortunately, the meta-twist that makes it all makes sense can't really be done again because of how well the game pulled it off. The narrative effectively needs to address not just the character in game but the player and his choices outside of the game. At the same time, no one considers choose your own adventure books to be lit fiction, and actual gameplay, also including anime style VNs and TellTale style games, pretty much prevents video games from being more than choose your own adventure narratives, or burdened by a linear story.

Bastion had good story elements, characters, and narrator, while being mostly gameplay.

I would sadl say that the locations of that game don't really lend themselves to telling a story other than the giant battlefield. If the world were a bit more explored rather than just there to look pretty I think you have something, but as it stands the game just feels connected by loose threads that ultimately do not convey the emotion of the characters at that time. The levels and puzzle solving was great and I did enjoy the game, but it felt all too dream like to really feel cohesive and ended up having a bit of story at the start and a bit of story at the end with a lot of fluff, narratively, inbetween. I never really understood why the brothers were so determined to go out of their way for their father except for the fact he was their father. What did he do that would make them risk their lives for him?

I will do it within the next decade or so. God has appointed me.

The Witcher 3 maybe?
I am playing it and apart from those sucky-sucky fancy-fancy sword moves of Geralt, the story is kinda good. It is still a traditional RPG game with the missions "goes from A to B", "find this item", "kill these monsters", but it is just the surface. The things that you will really enjoy are the cut-scenes and the dialogues that create a good story.