R. Scott Bakker: Second Apocalypse

So what does Veeky Forums think of R. Scott Bakkers Second Apocalypse series?

I'm currently reading the sicth book The Great Ordeal and I have to say I'm hooked. So many revelations happening and things unravelling. Sometimes his style of writing is too confusing, I have to read it several times and still don't understand.

But overall a very enjoyable series of books.

It's laughable dogshit for teenagers.
If anyone doesn't believe me, Google a few quotes.

Pretty bad, even for genre fiction.

Barely above Sanderson tier.

Well maybe I'm simple then, but I found it unique with so much philosophy twisted in it.

If you like fantasy at least give it a try.

Fun to finally read a "dark fantasy" series that's actually dark fantasy and not just gritty with Reddit humor sprinkled throughout.

Also Veeky Forums is incredibly asshurt about it because the female characters actually act like women and not Red Sonja.

Well, someone didn't like The First Law.

Who can like something as bad as The First Law?

No, you misunderstand.

I'm saying he perfectly described The First Law with his comments.

I'd like to point out that shitting on popular speculative fiction is what I'd expect from a freshman who just finished his first English course.

Joke is on you, English students are the usual fans of shitty fantasy.
It's also not speculative fiction.

I wish my nigga the most pious of all men would do something other than tear off his hair and lament having desire for cock.

Absolutely based. I love how fucked up it is.

I agree his writing has gone too purple in this second trilogy and sometimes it's impossible to know what the fuck is happening.

Okay, let me just post what got me banned over on /r/Fantasy. Need two/three comments for this.

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So I just finished reading (Okay, it took awhile!) the first two books of the Second Apocalypse series. It's super well written and the way things are described is just beautiful. I love the darkness, the rape, the violence, the pain.

I also skipped the last part of the second book because of how ungodly BORING it is.

The biggest issue I think is the nigga called Kellus. This dude is just silly. He's better then everybody. Like, Light Yagami? Ain't got nothing on this dude. He never does anything wrong and it just bugs me. Even when he thinks to himself that he should have killed someone, he's somehow 'right' and instead everything goes 'Just as Planned'. It's like, even when the bro says to himself he's done something incorrectly, it's actually the right thing for his plans to work?

Food for thought: What did you think when he was tied to tree one cubit above the ground. When I was reading it it seemed like he was thinking to himself that he somehow fucked up, but if I read it correctly everything happened -exactly- as he planned. Like, everything he thought was gonna happen happened perfectly.

I get that he's supposed to be better then us and everything, but I thought that shit was kinda ridiculous. Even when he's fighting flesh monsters he just kicks there ass with seemingly no effort. I don't get any sense of drama from this guy, just thoughts of "How's he gonna get out of this? Because I know he will."

He's like Light Yagami mixed with Shadow the Hedgehog and Medaka. He has no flaws, is edgy and dark, and everything goes just as keikaku.

So that's one character that made me skip a bunch of pages in boredom. Pretty much after he got out of the tree and pulled out Serwe's heart in front of all those people? That was the point where I just skipped pages.

Then there is Esmit and Serwe. You got one bitch that wants to fuck another chicks man. Who gets totally seduced by a guy even though she just lost a lover in like, what, a few months? It was hard to keep up with how much time passed when Akka was gone to dungeon hell and Esmit was alone to be seduced by Kellus.

Either way I didn't get the impression that it was THAT long. I felt it was pretty realistic the way that she fell for Kellus and his seductions, but at the same time it's like... really? A few months and you already want to have some dudes baby? Even though you just lost the love of your life? And somehow you love Kellus more then you ever did Akka? Whaaaaa? It made her seem so silly. Also, a side note, Kellus reads like a hentai character to me. Like anything he says and does, BAM, panties off. Doesn't matter who the women is, if Kellus wants to bang her he will.

But while Esmit might have been pretty real to me (Selling her kid, sucking off little boys for moldy bread. People really do go to dark places like that) Serwe was just... what? What even was that? She was okay with other chicks fucking her man, being used as a ona-hole, being beat on, seeing her man fuck and impregnate other women, and somehow she was a good person for it? I even got the impression that she was HAPPY to be an ona-hole. She was literally a character taken straight from a Syndrome Blue manga. Except unlike Blue you couldn't really fap to it.

Is there something I'm missing from Serwe? Because I was thinking maybe this was supposed to show me that Kellus was willing to use anyone and brainwash them in any way to make them serve his will. Like brain washing on steroids. But when I read it it didn't FEEL that way. Nor did I really get that impression. It seemed more like we were supposed to understand and think her a better person for being a walking ona-hole. The part where she talked to Esmit about being okay with sharing Kellus kinda sealed that for me. I certainly don't think it was written in a way to make me feel pity for it. More like... I should feel bad FOR pitying her.

I do like the Consult though. 'A race of lovers' is a line that really sticks to me. Scary, intimidating (What's more terrifying then your own body/will being taken from you?). But they are so incompetent! Like, three of there monster dudes get killed by one Dunyain. Easily, at that. I can't think of a single thing that they have actually accomplished. They couldn't even use the Holy War properly. It was gonna get killed in Carakstand until Kellus saved it or whatever.

The monster designs are pretty wicked. Faces that unfold, black seed when they rape someone, little birds with bald men's head, a God that makes every baby's birth still-born. Pretty damn metal.

Also, the writing, my god. So good. Damn near poetic. Any time Cnaiur is on page it's just awesome. And it's the first time I've ever seen the word "Bleeeaaase." I can think of no sadder or desperate way to say please and it just -works-.

Or when Cnaiur goes "WHO WILL MURDER ME?" or when Akka makes that dudes heart blow up in his chest after dumping coal on him. Or when he fights the Scarlet Spires in the library. Or when he fights them in the dungeons and crashes a whole building down on people. Hrrrng so good.

Akka's a cool dude.

Cnaiur is awesome. Him and Proyas should totally fuck. Do them a lot of good.

What do you dudes think?

I love how Bakker doesn't give a fuck about any of the complaints and criticisms thrown against him, and writes about how kellhus rapes proyas in the 6th book.

But yeah the thing that made me like this series is the Inchoroi trying to stay out of hell by any means necessary, even when they're whittled down to a population of two.

You really do write like a poster from r/fantasy.
It's a train of barely connected sentences which can be summed up as "I didn't like it because it didn't cater to me" or "lol this was awesome amirite sheldon cooper".

But a lot of the stuff DID cater to me. The edgy-edge of he Consult was pretty metal. Cnaiur was cool. Akka was adorable. Everything was nice and well written.

But Kellus was lame as fuck, Esmit was boring and hard to relate to, and Serwe was a walking ona-hole.

Do you have an opinion on anything about this book or like... you just want to talk to me about stuff?

>her
Who are you talking about? Proyas? I didn't get the feeling he wants the D
What was the reason for the ban? Did they say? And true, you do write like a retard. You are probably autistic, and I say that in a "non ironic" way...anyway some clarifications:

The "nigga" Kellhus is supposed to be overpowered. This is not a book about him ,it's about how the world reacts. Imagine humanity doing in WW2 it's thing and some alien ship comes along and fucks with the balance. That is the point of the character.

As for things happening as he wants them to, don't you know the secret of battle? Indominable conviction! Unconquerable belief !

This is literally a world where if you want something bad enough, it happens. That's the "secret"( this is getting too meta...). And, from the first quote Akamian has about the Holy War, you know Nigga Kellhus will survive, it's literally in the text. The question is how.

The rest is just...

I think that is true for "first trilogy" bakker and "great ordeal" bakker. I felt the taint of the publishers in the first 2 books honestly. Or maybe he wants to be more "palatable to the masses"...anyway, with The Great Ordeal he redeameed himself in my eyes. I had many disappointments with writers, it's hard to write a proper last books ( malazan is a prime example, there are so many more...) I really hope Bakker can do it and his newest book has my hopes up.

The barely connected sentences are true, but r/fantasy posters are way more circumspect with their language...It's a "safe space"

Try to use a different tone when getting your message across. It's hard to take it seriously and it's even harder to understand. Still...reread the series and try to see it from a different point of view. That might make it better....wait a few years to do it.

>The "nigga" Kellhus is supposed to be overpowered. This is not a book about him ,it's about how the world reacts. Imagine humanity doing in WW2 it's thing and some alien ship comes along and fucks with the balance. That is the point of the character.

I'm not really sure I agree with that. I mean, Kellus is a main driving force behind a lot of stuff. You get quite a few pages written in his PoV. He actively does a lot of stuff. How exactly isn't he a main character?

>As for things happening as he wants them to, don't you know the secret of battle? Indominable conviction! Unconquerable belief !

WAR IS INTELLECT!

>This is literally a world where if you want something bad enough, it happens. That's the "secret"( this is getting too meta...). And, from the first quote Akamian has about the Holy War, you know Nigga Kellhus will survive, it's literally in the text. The question is how.

I didn't actually know this series followed the whole "Faith makes it real" thing. I never got the feeling that this shit was Sigil in disguise.

Also I get that Kellhus is supposed to be overpower or whatever. That's fine I guess. But to me he came across more as annoyingly perfectly. I remember he like... pissed himself in pain once and was tripping balls on that tree. But none of those things are really flaws, ya know? It's not like they did him any harm in the end.

>Try to use a different tone when getting your message across. It's hard to take it seriously and it's even harder to understand. Still...reread the series and try to see it from a different point of view. That might make it better....wait a few years to do it.

I don't really mind giving it a reread in awhile. It's certainly beautifully written. I just can't help but see the Syndrome Blue parallels. Shit reads like a hentai manga a lot of the time.

I love it.

Is Bakker as preachy in this one as he has been in the other books?

YES.

aren't all philosophers a little preachy?

No.
And calling him a philosopher is a joke.

>being a Proyasfag
bugger yourself

He is a main character just like a hurricane is or "the zombies" . It is more personal though. You get into his head to understand what's up, from the beginning you realize he is essentially a robot. He will get to Shimeh no matter what. He would rape a thousand women, burn down half the world while killing every baby he could find...If this is "the shortest path" he would do it. In the second trilogy he doesn't get much screen time, he is just "there".

Kellhus says that about belief, but doesn't believe it. This series is essentially about a guy saying bullshit and realizing it is true. In one of the first battles, he makes some shady prediction about those knights being "redeemed". He gives them that bullshit about "belief" because he KNOWS those are his best chances. he is essentially rising the odds but even at the last battle in the second book he knows the odds are a long shot.

His "revelation" happens as he slowly "goes mad"(or he goes mad because of this revelation). He starts seeing the halos around his hand ,he starts to realize that his belief can actually ( objectively) change reality. He looks back at these long odds and is surprised for the first time, his success i a surprise to him.

Imagine this from Kellhus' POV. All his life, 2000 years of Dunayn training tell him about before and after. What comes before determines what comes after, this is so damn fundamental about him that he is literally "built" around this concept.

So he goes out, plays his games, and discovers sorcery. Than he gets into the holy war and realizes this shit is a long shot. So he starts to "master circumstance". To his surprise, things go well. Things go to well. His 1 in a 1000 ideas that where "created" from the probability trance succeed. One after the other...There's the prophecy about him coming at the "end of times". He discovers the Consult. He learns about the No-God, he dwells into the Thousandfull though "in it's many corridors" and he sees the halos! that is such an important moment. Reread that part, it is the essence of the Series and Kelhus' "insanity". Serwe keeps talking about Halos, he looks down and he sees them...

Also, one point to keep in mind, in this world sorcery works by "telling" reality what to do. Literally your words ( and they must be pure, of a different language) determine reality. Why not thoughts?

Kellhus has many powers but the most dangerous one is his belief. Firstly it isn't as emotional, so it can be a lot clearer. He believes he needs to find his father or die trying. His whole being is built upon that. That is why he succeeds and "gets lucky". Add the belief of the thousands of crazy worshipers, and suddenly an army of 30k famished half dead soldiers can defeat a well train army twice their size.

War is not Intellect!...War, the world...reality itself is built upon "Indomitable conviction! Unconquerable belief ! "

I see how you're right about that in a lot of ways, but in other ways I just don't see it adding up to that. Remember, I've only read the first two books, skipped most of the parts after finding out him being tied to the tree was "Just As Planned" and then couldn't manage to get through the first chapter of the 3rd book.

Here's my thoughts from what I read though.

Kellhus as a robot: Ya, I see it. He DOES have emotions though. He's not a purely logical being. While it could be argued that pissing himself while being tortured was a robotic act, I remember fairly clearly that he felt pity when he was about to kill Cnaiur. He decided not to kill him because "Everything has it's use." but I definitely remember him feeling pity. In fact, it's about the only emotion THAT I remember him feeling. That and curiosity. He is definitely a very curious individual.

But still, I just can't agree with him not being a main character, at least in the first two books. I can understand if that changes, but there are waaaay too many moments written in his PoV and he talks to way too many dudes. He's not like a hurrican or zombies in that he only exists to show HOW characters react, he IS a character that reacts, and it shows him ding so pretty often. I guess this changes in the other books, but I think it holds true for at least the first two.

I actually thought it was pretty lame when I found out he could use magic. Pretty much the moment you found out he was among the Few you knew, instantly, that he was gonna be an incredibly powerful Wizard. Erm, Shaman, rather, lol.

When he was tied to the tree I remember him tripping balls. But the dudes always had a god complex. Even when he was with that dude in the cabin with his dogs he pretty quickly came to the conclusion that World-Born Men were like children compared him. Thinking(Or knowing) your better then every one else pretty much is what a god complex is. I can't think of a single moment where he understood himself to have ANY flaws. In fact, I'm pretty sure he considered himself better and more knowledgeable then the other Dunyain as well, because he understands that Sorcery is a real thing and they don't. So even among his own people he understands himself to be better.

Even when he was tied to the tree he called his plan a "leap of faith". But I don't understand that at all. Everything went exactly as he planned out. From his capture, to his torture, to Cnaiur basically freeing him out of revenge. How is this a leap of faith? It was all according to his master plan. It was built up that there were "Too many paths" for him to figure out what to do, but he still managed to find the shortest path as far as I could tell.

Honestly, just by Kellhus existing it kinda ruins the whole series for me. Nothing he does ever turns out wrong for him.

Plus Serwe is straight up from a Syndrome Blue manga and that shit is weird.

I guess another, less polite way of putting it would be this.

Kellhus is a 'Too deep for you.' character. Like. You think he's too perfect? Nah man, he's just "too deep for you." He's not actually complex or interesting. he's just... "Too deep for you."

Also one more thing that confuses the fuck out of me.

The heck is the difference between belief and intellect in this series? Intellect is understand the world as it is, and belief is understanding the world as it could be? I am so confused. It just sounds like the dude is using two words for the same thing, calling them different, and then pretending to be deep because of it.

Like, what's supposed to even be the difference between intellect and belief?

It's just your basic fedora tipping. See it like that.

Intellect is intelligence...Comphas says "war is intellect" to show of. He defeated a stronger force of warriors because he was smarter. Faith is just believing in something...this shit ain't complicated.

The thing that makes this trilogy awesome to me is just that. You can read the first 3 books and you have a great story and all that, but you basically don't know how things work. You have some theories( at this point the thousandful thought isn't explained) but you are not sure. If you are really smart you can make a lot of guesses about stuff...however few people will be right ( even if many "revelations" are hidden in the text)

It isn't adding up because you have a story, these people go here and that, but you lack the context of the metaphysics. Essentially everything you hate is explained ( from the circumfix to Kellhus surviving the wilderness in the beginning). Also, it's not "just as planned". It's survivor bias. Kellhus literally makes plans that are most likely to succeed. The circumfix was one of those. He knew the chances are small.

Yes. For kellhus it's more than meets the eye. Imagine this : the person who can manipulate any person on the planet is deceiving himself.

He is the main character in a way...however I made this argument against him being overpowered. He loses individuality the moment he becomes more and more powerful because essentially he has no choice. There is but one path, the shortest one, he can't afford "to be" so to speak...this shit is explained in the following books. He even calls himself "a place".

For the magic, I think that was obvious in a way. Maybe all that bullshit about logic was merely about magic. 2000 years of training to create extremely logical beings that could master the Gnosis on an insane level.


It was hinted a few times that the Dunyian considered him way above average, so he is smart even for them. However...you need to look from his point of view. What comes after determines what comes before. His logic is a ->b ->c ...etc. In that way he cannot have flaws because he doesn't have personality ( only vestigial emotions) ...at least that's what he tells himself.

A leap of faith because he know the situation was shit and the only had a 1% chance of winnng.

Ye dude, if you don't like him , I get it. However this is a deep series, this guy tries to play with many themes . Kellhus being stupidly overpowered is obvious from the first scene. I mean really, put the book down and think for the moment: here's a guy who can manipulate everyone and essentially enslave them. That's why I say this book is about the other character, not Kellhus.

anyway...If you are not in the right frame of mind, you will not like this. I realized Kellhus was Op as fuck and that he would succeed, what kept me curious was the "how" of it. This made me interested in him and curious how other people would react to him.
It's not obvious, but Serwe plays an important part. look deeper

Kellhus may be 'too deep for you', but it's handled pretty well. We're six books in, and the reader still isn't sure if he's supposed to be the savior or the greater threat of the story.