Knives

patina is fine but get better glasses.

Stock photo, but still, that's what I have and I love it
One of the very few times advice from this board was useful
>I love you guys ;__;

Finally a handle that doesnt look uncomortable

...

Dude you post your one knife in every fucking thread, no one cares anymore

Honestly I love my shun santoku.

Stock image because I don't know how to resize pics on mobile

Rant incoming: I flew up to NJ to visit my grandmother over Christmas break - she's one of these old rich folks whose husband was a New York executive and she lives in this giant house with paintings and rugs and chandeliers. I was helping make Christmas dinner and trying to find a knife.

"Here user, your uncle got me these last year, they're amazing."

They were some brightly colored metal knives, so I assumed they were just a generic set from Costco or something, and started chopping. They were HORRIBLE.

Seriously... I think they must have never been sharpened. Either that or she had been cutting on steel for a year. They ripped the food rather than cutting it. I was soooo happy to get home and be able to slice things again.

Be glad you have sharp knives, my friends.

I sold Cutco in high school and I still have all free the knives I got. They may be overpriced but damn if they don't last.

The Shuns that I have seen other people own are all chipped, though.

Can anyone compare the Tojiro DP to the Fujiwara FKM gyuto? Prices seem pretty comparable here. What do I gain going up to the roughly 2x more expensive Masamoto VG?

My only experience with real Japanese knives is a Tojiro DP petty knife that cuts pretty well, but the handle is extremely small and the fit/finish is only OK.

Leaning toward something other than/maybe a step up from the Tojiro DP... I could afford a Masamoto VG, but am not sure if I want/need to spend that much on a chef's knife.

miyabi birchwood

tfw nobody in my family knows how to sharpen their knives

I had to bust out my pocket knife at one point to cut a beef tenderloin over Christmas.

I literally could not figure out an angle or lighting to really show. I mostly post this as a joke.

It's a fairly standard handle, right?

I wanted one of those Japanese handled for a while but I figured I should first get a good knife that I know I'd like, and experiment further down the road

They do look cool tho

Current stock.

The best pieces of my current collection, European and Japanese "workhorse" knives only. I'm not very interested in the "fancy" stuff. Two F. Dick 1778, two Tojiro DP, two Hattori FH, five Wüsthof Classic, a Herder 1922, three F. Dick premier Plus, a Karl Güde special edition, a powder steel Miyabi MC, a Fujiwara FKM, a CarboNext, a Hiromoto AS. Among them are six knives that have been thinned by Jürgen Schanz, one of the best custom knifemakers in Germany. The gain in performance is incredible.

I have that same mayabi. What is 5th from the left?

Only to name a few, I have over 60 knives, most of them large chef's knives between 200mm and 270mm.

Masakage Koishi

Why six watches though?

Grinding wheel marks/10.

Worth it? Sixth from the right honestly looks like your go-to knife...I could be wrong.

Sixth from the right is a Yoshiaki Fujiwara 240mm workhorse. I use it a lot yes.

I would not recommend the Koishi as some of them tend to have grind issues. Instead I would recommend an Itinomonn gyuto or a Toshihirosaku.

Word. thanks.

I used to collect watches, too ... now and then I get bitten by some bug and start collecting stuff. Thankfully it usually blows over before it gets too expensive. In the dresser you can see some of the ink pots I got when I was into collecting fountainpens ...

it never ceases to amaze me how so many people can be so clueless about a tool they use several times a day for their whole life. Cars, paintings sports, fashion, guns, travel - so many people take an interest in that but knives ...? That's super rare.

Whenever I visit my grandmother I sharpen all of her knives with a nice grit stone

I get your point, but I know fuck all about cars and I drive one every day. I know how to turn it on, I know the petal on the right makes me go faster and the one on the left slows me down. I can also change oil.

Ignorance is bliss until it fucks your wallet.

Not the guy you're replying to, but I think it's a matter of degree.

Nobody expects the average car owner to be a master mechanic, just as nobody expects a cook to be an experienced blacksmith.

But I would expect a car owner to be able to change their oil, change a tire, replace a burned-out headlight, and check/refill fluids.

and likewise I would expect a cook to know how to maintain their knife. They don't need to be a sharpening gearfag, just be able to maintain it with a sharp edge.

hey can you guys recommend some knives?

i'm just an average dude who cooks for himself and his family and i want to upgrade my shit knives.

i don't need chef-quality knives, but i'm willing to spend some money

i know this is vague, but any advice would be appreciated

inb4 kys

The guy he was replying to: Precisely. It's like sharpening a knife is some dark, lost magic or something.

Can't really go wrong with a Wüsthof Classic. 9'' would be my recommendation for a guy.The IKEA 365+ all-steel and the Wüsthof SilverPoint series are surprisingly nice, too. Much better value than the Victorinox Fibrox, which are good knives too, but way overpriced since they have become "popular".

a good chef knife is the only knife you should really spend money on. If a lot of crusty bread is eaten in your household a good bread saw makes sense, too. For the rest (parer, petty, slicer) cheap stuff will do.

Stay away from knife sets. A lot of money is wasted there on expensive, matching handles that are still uncomfortable, because your hands don't shrink just because you are using a 3'' parer blade instead of an 8'' chef's knife.

Korin house brands knives are good and look good. Get the $80 dollar ones unless your willing to spend more

thanks for all the replies!

> unless your willing to spend more
i might bb. i was actually thinking around $100 - $150 for a nice chef's knife. i'll probably be the only one who uses it

if you want something more exotic you could look here:
japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKI.html#KAGAYAKIBASIC

All the knives in the JCK Original selection (their house brands) are very good value for your money though. JCK is a well known shop with an excellent reputation among kitchen knife aficionados.

how do you guys feel about Shun knives?
are they nice?
and is there any advantage/disadvantage to a jap-style knife over a 'regular' chef's knife

I have never bought their house brand so I can't speak to their quality but I do own three Sugimoto cleavers that I bought from JCK. I can confirm they are top-notch with customer service. One of them was a special order that they didn't even list in their catalog but they still were able to get me one very quickly and for a great price.

The answer the second part of this question might be self-evident, given the simple fact that I'm asking it, but: What is the purpose of a "laser" knife and do I need one?

I've been researching Japanese chef's knives the past few weeks and this term keeps coming up for a thin knife. Do these knives have a legitimate place in a home cook's kitchen, or is it purely a novelty only used occasionally by professional chef's and knife aficionados wanting to change things up once in a while? They seem like they'd be more delicate and prone to chipping.

They are not bad, but they are basically European knives (profile with lots of belly for rock chopping) but with Japanese steel (hard, thin, fragile) which is a combination that doesn't go together so well. Shuns had a reputation for being prone to edge chipping for many years, mostly due to that.

>how do you guys feel about Shun knives?
Yeah, they're great knives.

>and is there any advantage/disadvantage to a jap-style knife over a 'regular' chef's knife

I'm assuming you mean a Japanese-style Chef's knife? What they would call a Gyuto? Generally speaking, they are thinner, harder, and lighter than a Western style. They will hold their edge longer. They cut with less effort. They're faster to chop with. But they are also less forgiving of fuckups and they are also not good for chopping hard foods, bones, etc.

The Japanese make all kinds of speciality kitchen knives. One you might consider is the deba. It's a thick, heavy knife. Sort of halfway between a chef's knife and a cleaver. It can handle a lot more abuse than a Gyuto or a Western-style chef's knife.

A laser is great if you often have to cut hard, thick stuff that causes a noticeable wedging effect with a normally thick knife. If you're cutting carrots, potatoes, bulb celery etc a laser knife can make a huge difference. They won't chip if you don't abuse them (chopping through chicken bones etc) For cutting slices of ham or raw meat, or tomatos or similar stuff a normal knife works just as well.

I prefer Miyabis if I'm going japanese. Both pass a regular tomato test, but Shuns are more expensive in general.

But I'd rather spend less money for equal quality..and it's about the same imo. Shuns are generally prettier though, so if you're looking for a knife to put on display; well there you go.

again, thanks!

being just an average guy, i think a western-style chef's knife is probably a better choice for me for now.

>r is it purely a novelty only used occasionally by professional chef's and knife aficionados wanting to change things up once in a while?

Pretty much. As far as I can tell the idea started when Westerners started using Japanese knives and were surprised at how much less cutting effort they took due to the fact that they are generally thinner and sharpened to a more acute angle. People started saying "wow, this Jap knife cuts like a laser". So of course the makers noticed this and started making knives that really focused on that aspect.

>>They seem like they'd be more delicate and prone to chipping.

They are. But like said, if you use them for what they're intended for then no, you won't chip or break one. They're not a general purpose knife, they're a specialty thing.

Personally I don't see the point in buying one unless you're into knives and you just like the idea. It's certainly not something that would be a practical suggestion for the typical cook.

>It's certainly not something that would be a practical suggestion for the typical cook.
I disagree there. They can handle 99% of the job you would use a typical kitchen knife for, and for that remaining 1% you probably shouldn't really be using a knife for anyway, use a cleaver instead. Once you have felt the difference between a laser and a "normal" knife it is pretty hard to go back and be satisfied with less.

What about the difference between a laser and a normal Japanese knife?

I guess it depends on what you're doing. In my cooking I am very often chopping the heads off fish, breaking down whole chickens, and cutting apart pork ribs. That's something that's no problem for a western-style chef's knife, standard gyuto, or a deba but I certainly wouldn't want to be doing with a laser.

I do own larger cleavers but I don't bother to bring them out for poultry or smallish fish.

For vegetables I prefer to use a very thin-bladed chinese knife. Similar idea to a laser, but with the rectangular shape rather than the gyuto sort of shape. Pic kinda related (not the exact brand I have, but gets the idea across). I agree, once you've used a really thin knife like this then you do indeed appreciate it. But I wouldn't use it for what I consider "general purpose" kitchen stuff.

>and a normal Japanese knife?

You need to clarify what you mean by this. What do you mean by "normal japanese knife" A gyuto? (The japanese version of a chef's knife?) A santoku? A deba? Yangi? (technically that's a sushi knife, but a lot of Japanese chefs use them for general purpose work)

But in general, what the others have said is pretty much the same. Laser means extra thin. Delicate. Easy to chip. Cuts with very little effort.

Unless you're deboning something, is which case you'd want a flexible knife to be able to pop a ball-joint for example, or push a knife down so you can slide under silver skin.

Any regular knife user will tell you that both Western and Eastern knives have their purpose, but neither are good at everything.

>Any regular knife user will tell you that both Western and Eastern knives have their purpose, but neither are good at everything.

This.

One thing that I found really interesting is that both cultures have developed a system with a lighter knife for general purpose work and then a heavier knife for the hard stuff.

If you watch Japanese pro chefs at work they'll usually have a Yanagi and a Deba. The French have the classic chef's knife, and then the "Chef du chef", which is a similar profile but much thicker/heavier. They're often called a "lobster splitter" as well.

Kind of interesting how two totally different cultures with radically different cuisine adapted a rather similar pairing of tools for their work.

There is no real clear-cut distinction between those knives. It's like asking about the difference between a normal car and a sports car. Is a Bentley GT more of a sports car than a Mazda Miata? Is Tesla Model S more a sports car than a VW Golf VR6?

I was going on an analogy with this: >Once you have felt the difference between a laser and a "normal" knife it is pretty hard to go back and be satisfied with less.

Assuming "normal" here means Western/German knife, let's say that most people become acquainted with Japanese knives through Shun, Miyabi or other knives you can buy from Sur La Table or Williams Sonoma, assuming most people will buy a gyuto as their first Japanese knife.

The difference between a German chef's knife and a Shun/Miyabi gyuto is usually noticeable, with people noticing greater ease of cutting. Now if a Shun/Miyabi knife owner stepped up to a "laser," would the difference still be that dramatic?

>Now if a Shun/Miyabi knife owner stepped up to a "laser," would the difference still be that dramatic?

From my experience, no, it would not be that dramatic but it would be noticeable.

Practically speaking, the "standard " Shun/Miyabi/etc can do most standard kitchen tasks, including small bones in fish or poultry.

The laser, however, would probably chip if you tried to do that.

hey will you post a pic of the watches?
either here or on please??

Do I need an end grain cutting board if I want to cut with Japanese knives, and what's a good inexpensive one? I see some on ebay in the $60 range, but not sure of the quality.

End grain is regarded as being more durable, but it's certainly not required for any kind of knife.

I use Japanese (and western) knives. I've been using some bamboo cutting boards I bought at my local supermarket. I have no idea about the brand. I've had them for several years now and I've had no trouble with them at all. The only name-brand that I have used and know well is Boo's Block, but I think those are fairly expensive. I'm not sure, I've never bought one, I've only used them.

Uh.... that's a little different from what I've read, which is as follows:

-Japanese knives use a harder steel with a steeper bevel, which makes them more prone to chipping

-Plastic cutting boards are not a good idea to use with Japanese knives due to being a generally hard material

-End grain cutting boards are the softest practical cutting boards, since the knife will always wedge between the grains, stopping gradually, and doesn't stop abruptly, as on the side grain or on a harder material

-Bamboo is different from real wood in that it absorbs a large quantity of glue, making it harder than other wood cutting boards, and therefore harder on your knives

Lotta confusion there, user.

>>-Japanese knives use a harder steel with a steeper bevel, which makes them more prone to chipping
Yes.

>>Plastic cutting boards are not a good idea to use with Japanese knives due to being a generally hard material

That's silly. Is someone trying to say that plastic is hard enough to dull steel? No way

>>End grain cutting boards are the softest practical cutting boards

True, but a very minor detail. That's like shaving yourself in order to "lose weight". Even side grain is much much much softer than a steel knife.

>>Bamboo is different from real wood in that it absorbs a large quantity of glue

I haven't noticed any glue on my bamboo boards. Nor should there be, the glue is on the inside, not on the outside surface. Furthermore, glue is softer than steel anyway.

You're worrying waaaaaay too much about this. Just pick one and go.

You're also forgetting that bamboo is, in fact, a real wood. No reason to call it "not real" like this moran

Bamboo is a grass.

Debatable.

These are all widely espoused claims and facts from cooking forums. I didn't just make them up.

>That's silly. Is someone trying to say that plastic is hard enough to dull steel? No way
>True, but a very minor detail. That's like shaving yourself in order to "lose weight". Even side grain is much much much softer than a steel knife.
What is often described is that the harder cutting boards will be more prone to catch an edge and cause a chip, not that they would dull the knife by virtue of being a harder material.

>I haven't noticed any glue on my bamboo boards. Nor should there be, the glue is on the inside, not on the outside surface. Furthermore, glue is softer than steel anyway.
You wouldn't see the glue - the point is that bamboo is so porous that the glue soaks into it, hardening the material more than it was originally.

This is a botanical definition. Wood is made of secondary xylem. Bamboo is a grass, and as such does not produce secondary xylem, only primary. Bamboo is therefore not real wood. This explains why it behaves differently than wood when exposed to glue and formed into a cutting board.

No, that's not debatable at all. There are very clear morphological criteria for what is and isn't a grass, and even if it looked nothing like a grass, genetic tests prove the relation.

>What is often described is that the harder cutting boards will be more prone to catch an edge and cause a chip, not that they would dull the knife by virtue of being a harder material.

That sounds ridiculous in the extreme. Are people seriously implying that a piece of wood or plastic is somehow going to "catch" and chip a metal knife? Knives are nowhere near as delicate as that implies.

>>You wouldn't see the glue -
Yes, I would. I'm a woodworker. I know what glue-laden wood looks like vs. wood that doesn't have glue soaked into the pores. Nevermind the fact that wood glue is soft and wouldn't harm a knife anyway.

You're worried about things that are so minor they only exist in your head.

I recommend that you wax your arm so you can chop faster by reducing air resistance. Don't forget to trim your fingernails. That makes your hand lighter so you can move it quicker.

>That sounds ridiculous in the extreme. Are people seriously implying that a piece of wood or plastic is somehow going to "catch" and chip a metal knife? Knives are nowhere near as delicate as that implies.
Uh-huh....

I wipe my own ass

You know KAI is well known to not give a single fuck about their heat treatments or QC of those heat treatments, right?

Money says a Torino DP would have been fine used the same way.

What does a pic of a chipped Shun have to do with someone suggesting that a wood cutting board's grain could somehow chip a knife?

You said that a "metal knife" could never chip if used on a wood cutting board or plastic. I provided proof of that happening. Now you're changing the goalposts. I don't care if some knives are a little more resistant to chipping than others. All I care about is that something is happening, and that there may be a way to ameliorate the situation by means of a cutting board specifically designed to be nicer to keen edges.

I'm not the guy you were responding to.

I was just noting that Shun knives are known to be exceedingly prone to chipping, and that in general KAI is does not have a great reputation for heat treatments (see: Kershaw as well).

Do you deny that other Japanese knives can chip as well?

>You said that a "metal knife" could never chip if used on a wood cutting board or plastic.

was not me.

And I didn't say a metal knife could never chip if used on a wood or plastic cutting board. I said you're worrying about something that's vanishingly insignificant.

I have chipped knives on wood cutting boards. Not because the board was wood, but because I was being a retard and was using too thin of a knife to chop through the bones in some turkey wings. The wood wasn't the problem. The fault lied with me using the wrong tool for the job. I was using a thin knife when I should have reached for a cleaver. The wood had nothing to do with it.

Since then I've used a variety of Japanese knives on those same bamboo cutting boards and I've had zero issues whatsoever.

Use your head a little, user. Why would a steel knife have anything to fear from a wood board? You know that steel tools are used to cut wood in woodworking, right? In fact, many of the smiths in Japan who make kitchen knives also make woodworking tools like chisels, planes, and carving knives. They're made with the same steel and the same laminated construction as a kitchen knife is. And their job is literally to CUT WOOD. Do you really think that a wood cutting board is somehow dangerous to a knife? I'm struggling to even comprehend that.

Not at all. Any high hardness thin geometry knife can chip, I was just mentioning that Shuns are pretty notoriously bad in this regard.

Brittleness is not the same concept as hardness.

>Why would a steel knife have anything to fear from a wood board?
I already explained that. The edge gets caught in the material while the knife is being used, possible being subject to twisting motion, and snapping the edge.

>You know that steel tools are used to cut wood in woodworking, right?
That's not a valid analogy. Tools that are used to cut wood have a blade that is much blunter than a kitchen knife blade. We are not talking about abrasion, which is a function of hardness; we are talking about chipping, which is a function of brittleness. It's possible to grind steel thin and hard enough that you could feasibly snap it with your fingers. Have you never used a razor blade or a box cutter? They chip all the time while cutting into soft materials. You could lean the tip of a box cutter on a wooden desk and snap the tip off the blade.

>Tools that are used to cut wood have a blade that is much blunter than a kitchen knife blade.
Not him, but I am a woodworker and this is straight-up false. A properly-sharpened chisel or plane blade is shaving sharp.

>The edge gets caught in the material while the knife is being used, possible being subject to twisting motion, and snapping the edge.

1) That's more likely to happen with the the softer "end grain" cutting board than a side-grain one.

2) It's not going to happen at all unless you're swinging your knife like some kind axe.

>>Tools that are used to cut wood have a blade that is much blunter than a kitchen knife blade.
Nope. As I posted before, I am a woodworker. I sharpen my chisels on the exact same stones that I use for my kitchen knives. The bevel angle is very similar and the sharpness is no different.

>>Have you never used a razor blade or a box cutter?
Often. I've never chipped one unless it was against something hard.

I suppose you could if you stuck it into something soft and then twisted it like a retard, but I doubt that's going to happen to your cutting board.

I have a very good Japanese made knife (not mentioning maker because I don't want idiots conflating this with it being a bad knife) that I have never had an issue with, that I have never thought I babied, ever. One of my coworkers used it for maybe 5 minutes and it was chipped along the entire fucking blade, maybe an inch toward the heel and tip were spared.
I'm wondering if they were chopping fossilized black pepper or some shit, or just went at retarded angles with their chops.
It's not a big deal since I am competent at regrinding and sharpening, but goddamn, I've never seen anything like it, and it changed my perspective on advising people, because there are very obviously people who can't use very hard blades without fucking them up.
It should also be mentioned that hardness is not the most important characteristic to consider for a utilitarian knife, at least not for most people.

I agree with all of that, it just annoys me that KAI makes money hand over fist selling Shuns, Kershaws and Zero Tolerances when they are well known to give zero fucks about their heat treatments, under or over harden everything, and half as their QC.

As a result I regularly remind people that KAIs heat treats are dogshit.

Yeah, I've never been a fan of Shun. I haven't ever thought of them as bad, either, just overpriced.
You very well could be right about the heat treatments on them, I haven't looked into it.

My personal experience (and logic) contradicts your espoused opinions.

No, it isn't. The blade geometry of woodworking tools is nothing like a kitchen knife and you know it. Stop trying to act like a big shot online when you're just a moron.

He didn't say blade geometry, he said sharpness.

A properly-sharpened chisel or plane will shave as well as any knife. There is precious little difference between the edge of a chisel and a knife with a scandi grind. Go huff paint, mouthbreather.

>He didn't say blade geometry, he said sharpness.
>Tools that are used to cut wood have a blade that is much blunter than a kitchen knife blade.

Yes. Bluntness is a measure of sharpness, not a description of angles.

I can see the word being a little ambiguous and therefore an ideal target for an idiot like yourself to seize upon in the last death throes of losing the argument, but you're wrong that it doesn't mean a wider angle in the context of cutting tools.

I mean, you're not entirely wrong, but you're still pretty wrong. In all meaningful contexts when it comes to knives, bluntness means how sharp it is, not the angle of the blade. A knife with a 17deg bevel can be sharper, just as sharp, or blunter than a knife with a 22deg bevel.

>>The edge gets caught in the material while the knife is being used, possible being subject to twisting motion, and snapping the edge.
>
>1) That's more likely to happen with the the softer "end grain" cutting board than a side-grain one.
I don't know who told you this, but they didn't know what they were talking about. End grain cutting boards are the best you can use for your blade. I would NEVER use a plastic cutting board with a Japanese knife and try not to use side grain. This is Japanese knife ownership 101.

>Nope. As I posted before, I am a woodworker. I sharpen my chisels on the exact same stones that I use for my kitchen knives.
Wow. Congratulations. Tell me something, woodworker. Do you often mince vegetables with chisels?

The result of bad QC would be more likely to just be an occasional batch being shit.

It's not like good heat treat is a skill. Even if they don't have a fully automated production line it's almost certainly still just a question of push a button, wait for a ding and move blanks to the next machine.

With bad QC that becomes, go to lunch, ignore ding for half an hour, ship shitty knives.

I mean bad QC in the sense of not catching the problems with their HT protocols or how those protocols are actually being carried out, and bad heat treats in the sence of choosing the lowest cost approach regardless of negative side effects.

They had huge problems with Shuns being abnormally brittle, with 13c26 Kershaws being laughably underhardened, with ELMAX ZTs failing catastrophically in customers hands, etc.

>Do you often mince vegetables with chisels?

Not him, but sine you asked I've diced onions with before with my larger chisels, way better than using a dull knife.

Protip, any decent woodworker's bladed tools are going to be a million times sharper than your kitchen knife, because it is ALL pushcutting. You don't ever slice wood, so there is no need to stop at 4k-6k grit, you go all the way up to 15k.

>bud id gon chip

Get tools that aren't shit.

youtu.be/v3Ad6tBdLbM?t=1m10s