Why shouldn't the minimum wage be increased to $15? Why shouldn't the minimum wage be a living wage?

>Food stamps are cancer
>Implying poor people would spend the money on food and not drugs and/or other harmful or frivious things

Not sure if you are retarded but odds seem high. Food stamps exist for an incredibly good reason.

But yeah you must be right - surely the extra money would be used responsibly by people who would use it to better themselves and their communities, just like all of those welfare bucks do. Why hasn't anyone else thought of this?!

lmao

>the higher minimum wage leaves them with no entryway into the workforce.

Thsi literally makes no sense.

Lets say a Mc Donald's needs 10 people to work a restaurant. As we know, those people are tight as they are. Most of them do all the jobs. There is no real designated cook. They all just do something when they can and most of the time they do more than one thing.

Suppose the minimum wage is now elevated. Do you think they would cut costs by removing one worker? If they remove a worker now they have 9 and are even tighter. Their service would get slow. Their service would get shitty.

Have you ever gone to a place where the service was too slow?

Have you ever gone again? Fucking not.

Jobs will not be reduced because if you take out people then your business becomes shittier. You will always need a set amount of people and when the government increases their wages the only thing that changes is which yacht the CEO can buy to his daughter.

Sorry, Susie, those fucking greedy cashiers took away some of my money. I was only able to afford the second biggest luxurious yacht in the world. I'm so sorry.

I know, such a fucking crime. Isn't it?

loser mcndonalds worker who never took a business or economics class detected

Hey, mr. smart. Do you know that wages and living costs are supposed to go up?

Ever heard of inflation? If we never elevated the minimum wage then in 100 years, most workers would be earning peanuts.

Basically, you are retarded. The minimum wage always has to be increased. The economic question is how often and by how much. You moron.

very creative post

When poor people make more money they spend it which further increases the economy. You Republicans are utter failures when it comes to the economy. Trump is gonna be more inept than Bush. He is gonna find it hard when he realizes he can't file for bankruptcy on the entire nation.

Hello. My name is Simon.

The answer to your question is because nobody asked me for the answer. Would you like the answer?

Please just read an introductory book on microeconomics.

I'll have two number 9's, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45's, one with cheese, and a large soda.

this

>Implying poor people would spend the money on food and not drugs and/or other harmful or frivious things

Here is an idea: Double the minimum wage and then completely defund all welfare programs.

Outcome #1: The healthy people working low wage jobs become a bit wealthier and are able to better their lives and be more productive

Outcome #2: All the welfare queens die of starvation for being fucking cancerous.

In 10 years society would literally fix itself.

first, define "living wage".

second,
>If you give the poor more disposable income, they will spend it on goods and services

wrong, if you pour more money in the economy there won't be more goods and services, the goods and services will become more expensive, it's called inflation you moron

the correct way to increase goods, services and general wealth of a society is to increase productivity

>completely defund all welfare programs.
haha

you actually think democrats would let this happen

haha

tyrone and laquisa would literally be rioting in the streets if you took their SNAP away

nytimes.com/2014/02/03/business/the-middle-class-is-steadily-eroding-just-ask-the-business-world.html?_r=0

Oops. I win.

If knowing more economics would fix by wrong opinion then why are there economists who support the 15$ minimum wage?

That's right, because economics is just applied political ideology.

You have a political ideology and you can hide behind "xD look at these books" but so can I. There are as many researchers supporting my position as there are researchers supporting yours. Stop pretending this is an education problem.

This is an ideology problem. It is about whose ideology is better and here is a spoiler alert:

It's mine.

HAHA CLEARLY YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ECONOMICS AHA READ A TEXTBOOK AHAAAHA

> probably believes in the invisible hand, praxeology, and other heterodox horseshit and had actually never touched any book related to economics

If it so blatantly obvious, explain it faggot

The largest welfare queens in the US are farmers and the military but since you Republicans virtue signal to hell for those 2 groups you wont stop their welfare queen spending.

>you actually think democrats would let this happen

Some would. But that's is not even the problem. I'm not against voting republican if they make sense. That's why I voted for Trump.

Anyone can make the change I want. However, Bernie Sanders would have been better than the Donald but I take Donald as a discount Bernie.

it's kind of different since farmers actually you know

make food for us to eat and without them we would fucking die

>it's called inflation you moron
Inflation doesn't mean a decrease in goods and services
It happens because people are able to buy them
And as long as the demand is sustainable, it will actually create more supply therefore increase the production
And making people work is almost certainly provides a better sustainability than giving them free food stamps

ever heard of getting a job not designed for a monkey or a high school student?

we would be better off if the people on food stamps starved to death. that's a fact.

Well, I too would love to live in a utopia where only high school students live off minimum wage but the sad truth is that there are a lot of adults in that business.

People with shitty pasts who now just want to leave that behind and work for something.

Why do you deny them that? Maybe if we help them become wealthier then their kids would be able to get the education that will allow them to not end up working shitty jobs at an old age.

I mean, be realistic just for a second. Think about the real world.

No fuck the farmer. It would be cheaper if the feds just had a public option in farming instead of relying on Bubba to throw a temper tantrum because he isnt getting more dollas to subsidize milking cows. Fuck wheat would be cheaper if the farmers didnt cey like bitches for a price floor on it.

Point me to a credible economist who supports a $15 min wage.
Start with marginal product of labour. Once you understand that, move on to price floors and the negative effects of those (you may need to first understand supply and demand; I don't know how little you know).

What is denying them from using this job to gain skills and move toward a higher paying job? How do we help them become wealthier without giving them more skills?

If you want to talk education, that's an ENTIRELY different point that I don't think anyone would deny is important.

inflation is the increase of general prices of goods and services

an increase of minimum wage has two possible outcomes:

1) it is accompanied by inflation/increase in the money supply, their bigger wage doesn't increase their living standards in any way since the cost of living would raise accordingly. Further, low middle class people are pushed into higher income brackets and are forced to pay higher taxes.

2) it is not accompanied by inflation/increase in the money supply. Formal unemployment rises. Low-skilled people resort to informal work not covered by labor laws and unions. This happens a lot in Spain, for instance, where 50% of their youth is "unemployed".

If you think raising the minimum wage to $15/hr would make the world better, why no $20, why not $40? Deep down you know it would either cause unemployment or be sustainable only through an inflation of the same degree.

>Why shouldn't the minimum wage be increased to $15?

Inflation

>Point me to a credible economist who supports a $15 min wage.

pbs.org/newshour/author/john-komlos/

pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/why-raising-the-minimum-wage-is-good-economics/

percent wise, hispanics and blacks are double as likely to be on welfare as whites.

but you're a fucking idiot that distorts facts so that they say what you want them to say. also, not sure why you're attacking farmers since they are the number one employer of your pet illegal immigrants.

Hello. I cannot point you to a credible one that supports it, because an economist is only trying to find the ratio of the flow between goods and services.

Supply and demand.

Source and consumption.

Recycled.

Hello. My name is Simon. Have I helped you?

US farmers receive massive government subsidies, because their method of production for vegetable goods is completely unsustainable by itself.

Because they receive money to make things like corn, they overproduce it and it all ends up going to livestock, which is why the meat industry has feedlots instead of free range meat.

Free range beef provides more calories per dollar investment than ANY crop, including cheap shit like potatoes.

If you remove the subsidies, we wouldn't run out of food, the market would change and maybe we could finally move away from mass production of corn that only the fucking cows eat.

>What is denying them from using this job to gain skills and move toward a higher paying job? How do we help them become wealthier without giving them more skills?

The fact that job growth is way too slow? Where, realistically, can these people move to to increase their wealth?

The best we can realistically do is better their current working conditions, not demand them to find better jobs when many times there are none.

hmm

Not him, but you're an idiot nevkbeard. He doesn't mean that thhe farmers and military are LITERALLY on welfare. He means that farmers receive government subsidies for their crops and any brain dead retard can join th military for a salary, living spac, 3 hots and healthcare.

You're missing the forest for the trees. Those things combined out-total any minority group on actual welfare

This is an absurd strawman

>Why do you deny them that? Maybe if we help them become wealthier then their kids would be able to get the education that will allow them to not end up working shitty jobs at an old age.
why should we waste finite resources on people that might be productive in the future rather then spending them on people that are and will continue to be productive?

this bullshit empathy towards those that don't deserve it will be the fall of western nations and the rise of east. chinks have no qualms about letting useless fucks starve to death or bleed out in the street.

>their bigger wage doesn't increase their living standards in any way since the cost of living would raise accordingly
This is obviously wrong
There will be an increase but it will be mostly trivial since there already isa huge market and a minimum amount of money injection won't change much, not to mention it will replace some other things like stamps

I can't really say much about the 2nd one, whether or not it will become the reality depends on many things that are out of my knowledge

>why no $20, why not $40
Because changing it too much will create too much imbalances in the economy
After all it isn't binary, either beneficial or not

t. berncuck

This is bullshit because of If that person is hiring then they literally need the worker. Most businesses cannot afford to cut on workers. That is why companies lobby against the increase.

If it was as simple as "lel then I will just hire less people" then they wouldn't fear this at all. They would be: INCREASE AS MUCH AS YOU WANT LOL!

But they need the people! They need the full timers and the part timers. So they know that they are going to lose money.

epionline.org/studies/survey-of-us-economists-on-a-15-federal-minimum-wage/
Disregarding the fact that he's an economic historian, 75% of economists surveyed do not support a $15 minimum wage.

>why should we waste finite resources on people that might be productive in the future rather then spending them on people that are and will continue to be productive?

Well, I think that we should spend on both!

We need to spend money on the homeless/unemployed

We need to spend money on the poor

We need to spend money on the middle class

It is called raising taxes.

>they need the worker

Not necessarily. Most businesses can run on reduced employees, they just don't want to because its a pain in the butt.

Much like an engine can run low on oil.

And worst comes to worst they just hire some kid and pay them under the table. I live in Australia where minimum wage is 17 buckaroos and when I got my first job I asked everywhere and nobody was hiring. I only got hired at the 7/11 pajeet was running and it was under the table at 8 dollars an hour

>One hundred sixty-six (166) completed the survey

Wow! Nice sample size! This is top tier conservative science!

>giving more money to people improves the economy
ignoring how retarded that is, that's not what you're doing when you're increasing the minimum wage. you're literally erasing the lower brackets, and making sure companies will replace useless workers with machines like happened recently in fast food chains in states with minimum wage increases

Google "marginal product of labour".

nitpicking sample size isn't a refutation

at best it's reddit.com/r/science tier handwaving

yes, and i'm saying that blacks and hispanics are more than double as likely to be on actual welfare, you know, because in case if you were too daft to grasp his jab at republicans it was to infer that they are racist.

what's also funny is that he attacks farmers because they the number one reason to """justify""" illegal immigrants being here, and i'm sure he supports them, too.

Higher minimum wage=higher labour costs for workers=workers being laid off due to cost or even replacements via outsourcing to lower labour cost markets such as China=more unemployment especially in lower income workers or less skilled workers in general=less disposable income

>Not necessarily. Most businesses can run on reduced employees, they just don't want to because its a pain in the butt.

No they can't. If they do so then they lose on profit as their service gets shittier and people start wanting to go to other places.

Nice metaphor with the engine running on low oil. You know what happens you run on low oil? Sometimes the engine stops and you are left in a bad position.

That is what would eventually happen to a business who decided to save on costs like this.

If you want whatever that is to be part of the discussion then I at least expect you to explain it yourself and why I should care. Not going to google something for you just because you don't have a point.

At least accept it is inconclusive then. You cannot take that as hard fact.

Rip I meant to a say bigger costs to businesses

>We need to spend money on the homeless
>We need to spend money on the poor
no, we don't.

>It is called raising taxes.
which i'm sure you don't pay.

There are only so many economists worth surveying.
I'm sure they'd love to survey 10,000 economists, but you'd be well below the bottom of the barrel by that point.

your whole analogy is fucking retarded communist command economy bullshit

forcing businessess to suddenly start paying all of their employees is dumb

a free market economy would be a car with oil in its engine running smoothly

ridiculous minimum wage increases would be like trying to fill a 10 gallon gas tank with 20 gallons of gas and then being surprised when the car fucking explodes and suddenly nobody owns cars anymore

this is why socialist policies always end in breadlines because eventually you run out of people willing to run a business

>forcing businessess to suddenly start paying all of their employees

Meant to type

Forcing businesses to suddenly start paying all of their employees double

>this is why socialist policies always end in breadlines because eventually you run out of people willing to run a business
that's why the vast majority of people that lived in communist shitholes don't support communism.

The marginal product of labour is how much extra value is produced by adding an extra employee. This is basically the most fundamental concept you need to understand in order to understand the effects of raising or lowering minimum wage. If you don't want to google it, that's fine. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

I'm already pretty sceptical about someone claiming to understand the effects of minimum wage who hasn't heard of such a basic concept. It's almost as if you've never studied any economics.

>no, we don't.

Yes we do! So many problems like crimes and drug addiction come from poverty. We could fix society as a whole by helping the poor and helping the middle class!

>which i'm sure you don't pay.

I don't pay taxes because I still live with my parents and don't make enough to even be in a bracket. I do pay a small health insurance tax from my paychecks as health insurance is socialized here though.

And I would pay double what I pay. I would even pay a 50% tax rate as long as everyone else also had to pay it. Why? Because I know that 50% would come back in some way or another. That is how public funding works!

>lowering
*raising

>Because I know that 50% would come back in some way or another
That's actually the core mentality difference between righ left wing economics

>I would pay double what I pay
Says the guy who still lives with his parents and doesn't have to pay for his own shit. I don't know how you possibly could have typed that with a straight face.

>Yes we do! So many problems like crimes and drug addiction come from poverty. We could fix society as a whole by helping the poor and helping the middle class!
we can also solve those problems permanently by letting them starve.

>I don't pay taxes because I still live with my parents and don't make enough to even be in a bracket.
LMAO
M
A
O

opinions discarded. it's funny how those pushing for more welfare are more than often worthless leeches looking for more gibsmedats.

communism is essentially plebs(workers) not realizing they need patricians(business owners) to run things

it's a clever ideology because it inherently turns the mob against the business owners and leeches from them

but when you run out of business owners the whole thing collapses because you run out of other peoples money

>There are only so many economists worth surveying.

I'm sure that more than 166 though.

You are right,a free market economy would be good.

Too bad there are people SO RICH they can bribe every politician to help them. That is why we need to push back in some way or another. If we don't then the power of big corporations would be crazy.

>Says the guy who still lives with his parents and doesn't have to pay for his own shit. I don't know how you possibly could have typed that with a straight face.

You also lived with your parents at a point, faggot. I'm still in college, what do you expect me to do? Stop pretending like this makes me inferior in some way or another. I am caring about the people who have it worse than me.

Also, I obviously mean in the future when I do pay taxes. As long as there is good reason and the public spending is efficient then why not?

>we can also solve those problems permanently by letting them starve.

Well, I hope you know what the effect of losing 50% of your country's population would be. Just ask any country who ever suffered from famine.

Glad to know this is the level of economic insight I can expect from conservatives.

Also, as I said before. I am still in college. You didn't pay taxes when you were in college you mouth breather. Are you retarded?

why don't you just donate to charity you faggot? Why do you want to force other people to give half of their shit to politicians?

This qualifies as a science topic? Weird...

>I am caring about the people who have it worse than me.
when you step out into the real world and meet some of those people then you will quickly realize that they don't feel the same way about you.

i can understand trying to help out those that lost their jobs, or are in education and actively trying to improve themselves, but that doesn't make up the majority of welfare recipients.

God damn it feels good to see discourse and debate from opposing side, linking sources, debating facts and interpretations

>why don't you just donate to charity you faggot?

I would, but it is not about me. It is about other people. Charities are not enough. Not enough people care about the problems that surround them because most of the times those problems don't affect them.

Taxes are the only way to make them care. Plus, taxes are already a necessity for a country to survive. Just raise them for the public good. You cannot have a country without taxes.

i also didn't have a retarded world view like you, because i wasn't a sheltered suburbanite.

a famine is also not the same as killing off those that literally can't survive without the government teat, i.e. those that have a net negative contribution.

>when you step out into the real world and meet some of those people then you will quickly realize that they don't feel the same way about you.

Maybe they don't but who am I to say how people who have been marginalized all their lives should feel.

I feel like if I was poor I would have deep hatred for every rich person in the world. Everyone would. They probably feel like this.

But that can be fixed. Just fucking help them a little bit.

>i also didn't have a retarded world view like you, because i wasn't a sheltered suburbanite.

Oh, Mr. conservative. Please tell me about your tragic life story living in the Beverly Hills hood.

>iterally can't survive without the government treat

I do believe those people are shit but that is why I say that the government should defund most welfare programs (specially discriminatory ones) and instead send all that money to public investment and increasing minimum wages.

The government has so much money. Literally make more jobs. We would need better politicians though.

i seriously hope you're female, because you'd be beyond a faggot if you are a guy. don't get me wrong, your opinions are retarded even for a woman, but far less so than for a guy.

This blind naivety led to the surge of terrorist attacks in Germany. It sucks, but reality isn't as friendly as we'd like it to be.

That said, there are other ways to help the poor other than alphabet soup programs.

none's denying the necessity of taxes but this hard-on to give 50% of your hypothetical inexistent income to a bunch of corrupt fucks, who'll then be "generous" with a money that isn't theirs, who will then try to buy votes with it, and who will then claim all credit for whichever goodness that money provides, is disturbing.

>This blind naivety led to the surge of terrorist attacks in Germany

No, no no. Those cucks decided to play with fucking islamists. That has nothing to do with me. I want to help the poor. The LOCAL poor. Islamist ideologues are already rotten to the core. The only benevolent action would be to nuke the middle east and start all over again.

All the problems you list could be fixed by adding more checks and balances and harsher punishments for corruption.

Plus, if a politician wins by pandering to the poor then that is good as long as they actually intend on helping them.

actually, i was a preteen when i came to the US. i did not speak the language, the culture i came from was significantly different, and i was white.

why does the last part matter? because since my first days in the US i've seen hispanics and blacks milking the government. i have grown up around them, and my family for the longest time was worse off than many of these welfare leeches were. i have been excluded from the good old boy's club because i have an accent and retards can't pronounce my name, and i don't have access to all the "minority" benefits because i'm white. throughout college i got to see just how much you can milk various programs, many even through the US government, just because of where you were born and the color of your skin.

i feel nothing but contempt for welfare leeches. i wallowed among them, beneath them even, and i rose higher than most of them can dream of. i'm now in my fourth year of a phd, and managed to buy three properties even on my shit stipend.

>All the problems you list could be fixed by adding more checks and balances

and WHO is responsible for adding those?

That's, poli-fucking-ticians.

>if the intentions are good then it's all good

wrong, their policies' consequences are more important than the intentions.

>Raising minimum wage they will fire people
I LOL every time.
If a business that relies on minimum wage workers could cut costs by downsizing, they would have done so already.

I bet you retards also think that if minimum wage was removed, business would hire more people. Why would they hire more people if their current model is already working? They would just lower wages and keep the amount of employees the same ( until the employees quit due to not earning enough, unlikely though as wagecucks would just get more jobs to compensate instead of rioting. )

You obviously experienced racism. Programs that help certain genders or races are retarded. If I was a politician and my programs were in place then you would have also received welfare, because I just want to help the poor.

If a black middle class guy comes to me I would spit on his face for daring to ask for welfare.

explain why do some people earn more than minimum wage? is it out of the employers' generosity?

thank god your "this sounds reasonable so the opinion I pulled out of my ass is right" line of thought it worth nothing

forbes.com/sites/realspin/2016/11/29/thanks-to-fight-for-15-minimum-wage-mcdonalds-unveils-job-replacing-self-service-kiosks-nationwide/#788472ef762e

>thanks-to-fight-for-15-minimum-wage

Holy fuck what a bullshit title? Do you think that Mc Donald's wouldn't have invested in that technology if their workers would have been fine?

If so then you are retarded lol. Technology replaces humans naturally. Even if their workers were earning peanuts they would still replace them with machines.

Is that not authoritarian though? I mean I would expect china to treat businesses like that but not the US.

How would you feel if uncle sam doubled, or even tripled your taxes and then said LOL it's not like you can leave.

Capitalism needs to be stopped.

Because those aren't the jobs we are talking about right now
>Technological unemployment is because of minimum wage
lmao I guess the reason we aren't all working on farms right now is because those damned minimum wage laws too.
There is a massive difference between "I increased taxes so your money can go to welfare queens" and "I increased minimum wage so welfare queens stop existing entirely"
Funnily enough businesses only fight against the latter. Business loves the former as it externalizes cost of employment and they still earn money from the plebs who utilize their business.

>human worker costs $12
>machine costs $13
>suddenly human worker costs $15
>wat do?