If life starts in the ocean, why didn't civilization also start there?

Can't build tools underwater realisticly. Also you need at least three digits with a thumb to evolve complex thinking and toolmaking in the long run ,we have 5. Dinos would have developed tools eventually but were stopped early and the ones that had wings simply eveolved into birds a nore natural realistic skill that helped them survive in the long run to our current time.

why 3 digits and a thumb? Why not 1 digit and a thumb?

you can't do jackshit with a digit and a thumb

Are you describing a crab? Yes

I'm describing something that can turn a door handle, operate a hammer, wire cutter, press a button and can use any sort of remote control with 2 arms.

Yeah I see what youre saying but I can't answer it. I think it has sonething weird to do with adaptations or something like that. Like technically a squid can do all those things but it never came out of the water to try any of it becuase it was so well adapted to its current environment.

And that in turn with how long adaptations take to turn into an evolutionary trates it keeps them from making a civ with tools

So it really has to do with ability to influence the environment and nervous system development. We could have 2 digits and survive as a species as is...

Also teamwork and other things instilled in us is a survival trait that was crucial to survive. All apex predators have high iq relative to their prey. And by allowing teamwork within human culture we learned to hunt as a group and live as a group. We evolved from something just eating grass into omnivores then also in turn were able to later cultivate crops as gatherers and get the best of both worlds

Yes I believe you worded it correctly.

>Atlantis

I think that has to do with us having sex all year round and being able to control our environments using fire, stones and etc., having to do with being able to control our environment. Sex and pregnancy is team work.

Those idiot fish. Not even thinking to invent the wheel.

/s (pic related)

Gr8 b8 m8.

...

Evolution has some serious gaps in logic if I'm honest.

we know more about the moon than we know about the ocean.
we know about 1 percent about the ocean.

>Evolution has some serious gaps in logic if I'm honest.
Elaborate
>aeon.co/essays/on-epigenetics-we-need-both-darwin-s-and-lamarck-s-theories

Thats the thing, it doesnt follow logic.

Everyone in this thread is retarded. Civilization started because of abstract ideas. Not physiology.

People realized that sitting around and farming was easier than getting killed by wild predators.

Then some wise ass was like "gee how can I brainwash all these monkeys to farm my crops for me" so he invented religion and promised them eternal life.

Humans are fucking retards, other humans literally ran around promising abstract concepts to other humans because they were afraid of dying. And it worked. If a squid was smart enough to lie out his ass to other squid, boom civilization.

*tips ink bladder*

kek

You're right, there's totally not any form of civilisation at the bottom of the sea.
Please stop looking for us.

>all apex predators have high iq relative to their prey
literally untrue. stingrays eats cephalopods. fuckin duh

You don't need fingers. Octopus are more dextres than us.

Cuz god.

dolphins routinely lie to each other for food resource and social advantage. why are you all retarded

im imagining that, it's hilarious

> hi tom
> hey larry
> i died yesterday give me ur food
> oh no why u did die
> yesterday lol
> then whos talking to me
> the black walrus that bullied you when you were younger
> o
> ye
> can I hab food now
> no lol
>why?
> ur mean
> o okay
> gib kith pls
> k :3

Prod. By

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|3
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Nah shit. But they sure as fuck dont have a civilization do they? Or make fucking tools

lol literally

same user

the conversation goes like this irl

larry larry (i am larry)

daniel daniel (i am daniel)

larry daniel (hi daniel)

daniel larry (hi larry)

daniel daniel (hey daniel here is where food is, youre part of the pod, its cool)

simon observes this, approaches larry

.......daniel daniel ....?

larry daniel,
daniel daniel (hey its you again, here is where more food is daniel)

they manipulate bubbles to use as nets in feeding aggregations, which could be considered a tool.

also cephalopods have been known to use shells and halfs of coconuts as sheilds and mobile homes, that could be considered a tool.

and they actively decorate 'gardens' (the beatles didnt invent 'the octopuses garden') in order to attract mates, who may choose males based on how well kept their garden is. that could be considered the beginnings of a civilization.

some postulate that their slow growth and reproduction rates, along with one tough as fuck mammal surviving the permian mass extinction, are likely literally the only reason why humans were able to gain a foothold and we dont live in an octopus dominated society

Im saying relative to thier prey. And not always but anything that is a predator has higher nervous sytsten function. A squid can camouflage to catch prey. A wolf pack can form tactics to hunt prey. Killer whales use pack tactics to hunt. Fish and other prey may bundle together for saftey in numbers but thats it.

>
>Yeah I see what youre saying but I can't answer it. I think it has sonething weird to do with adaptations or something like that. Like technically a squid can do all those things but it never came out of the water to try any of it becuase it was so well adapted to its current environment.

nope, different user bruh. shock horror, there are >1 marine biologists in this thread

because physics had to develop. in water, you literally cant build or do shit, and everythings the fuckin same. climate doesnt give you much to develop upon.

construction and improvement in life are key to civilization.

Octopus dominated society? Yeah they sure do show alot of teamwork and the mammalian trait of hyper social interactions..... the point is they need to be on land and have to have at least 3 digits with a thumb to grasp critical thinking and toolmaking in long run. Plus mammals pass down lessons like killer whales teaching young to hunt. Octopus don't. Tentacles dont work well in the long run in land vs hard bones.

Because paper gets wet in the water and you can't hold a pen with fins.

sorry user, i have to defend fish here.

most pelagic fish have countershading which can render them invisible depending on angle and depth of the predator.

they also possess an extremely current sensitive lateral line running the length of their body.

visual acuity isnt great in alot of species, but some damsel fish (considered a peasant family) have even been shown to have facial recognition.

damselfish also actively FARM algal turf, eating a section of turf whilst they allow other sections to regrow - all the while fertilising that turf with excrement and actively defending it against predators. How is that not the very basis of agriculture and resource management ???????
(although i will admit, studies arent in complete agreement about whether they are actually eating the turf - it actually intensifies another level; most species arent eating the algae - the algae is a copepod rich habitat, they are actively farming crustaceans. they are FUCKING CRAB FARMERS.)

also, for interests sake.... they make active decisions about where to settle, where to disperse, where to resist dispersion, spawning aggregations involving extremely basic levels of risk spreading and population management.... the list goes on

Octopus may be critical thinkers but they're weak as fuck and any land animal would destroy it. Hell a bird would peck it to death haha.

Fun fact: all cradles of civilization were next to a desert.

if the long run you are talking about involves eventual (at this point near inescapable) sea level rise, human extinction and man mad structures being submerged in seawater? i would say you may be incorrect, sir

True I will admit they have very complex social interactions and even perform societal like task but i feel as if that is almost compared to an ant colony being considered as building a civ when in fact its just a complex hive mind.

same user; im proposing a future where humans are long gone, and octopussies swim around the ruins of our civilization opening all our jars and fucking with our shit.

>"Who were these mysterious people?"
>"What is a... s-t-e-v-e u-r-k-e-l ?'

I can agree with this, but would postulate that humans are essentially the same
>believing in free will

marineAnon again, feast your eyes on this, friend

youtube.com/watch?v=2p2RR3g8UOM

these fuckers are strong, and with a bite force ratio that can easily break bones

also, octopussies do hunt on land bro

youtube.com/watch?v=Ar5WJrQik2o

Yeah I may have mindfucked myself with that last realization. Im just glad to have an actual convo about this. It really does fascinate me. How the human consciousness can be among a group or singular person and how much is instinctual vs learned behaviour or just doing monkey see monkey do

totally dude

Veeky Forums is the shit

jaques castel has some stuff to say that you would really be interested in user ;)

Ok you got me they can be like the kraken. But thier size inhibits them brain size wise and even though theyre super smart and complex all the complexity has gone into their nervous sytem adaptations and not into nurturing young, teaching, or using tools to hunt or build shelter. They need to camlflauge becuase they get eaten alot.

Ill def check his stuff out:)

agreed - size/brain size tradeoff is their ultimate limitation

which family do you think would rise to uber sentience in the absence of humans then, out of interest?

food for thought: if aliens came and visited earth, they would likely see insects as the dominant life form

you've been memed my friend

living in water is piss easy
fish are fucking retarded and other water animals even more so
the only smart ones are mammals like whales, but those evolved from land mammals

...

Shoggoths.

>if aliens came and visited earth, they would likely see insects as the dominant life form
>as opposed to the apex predator ape thing that can probably hit them with a missile

gee golly sci is full of smart people.

>he believes in aliens

I often wonder. It always surpises me that an insect never came to be dominant one. especially how big they used to be when the earth had way more 02 also they have such a wide variety of mechanisms they add to themselves physically like pincer antennas book lungs wings and crazy eye sight and some look exactly like the plants they live on. Plus they multiply so quickly you would think they would have at least an accidental spurt of intelligence at somepoint. Like an enlarged brain cavity or multuple brains or some shit. I mean the literally metamorphosize from one being to another, from worm to flight.. It shouldnt be that hard to have them gain inteligence or insight after eons of constantly changing genomes.

this

>Veeky Forums brainlets don't even know about atlantis

>he thinks intelligence has anything to do with convergent evolution.
>he thinks animals get smart on accident without an external environmental factor that causes the species to select that adaptation through natural selection rendering the adaption warranted

am I doing it right sci?

I think you didnt read any of the discussion Leading up to this comment

Can't build tools underwater realisticly. Also you need at least three digits with a thumb to evolve complex thinking and toolmaking in the long run ,we have 5. Dinos would have developed tools eventually but were stopped early and the ones that had wings simply eveolved into birds a nore natural realistic skill that helped them survive in the long run to our current time.

When toolmaking and language begin its from within genetically. Because at that point in evolution you must have the correct hands to build them the right throat to speak words.

You can't get convergent evolution to select intelligence unless the environmental pressures demand it.

>insects
>eat, shit, fuck

Unless they have a problem that with one of those three that can be overcome with the use of intelligence. It won't happen.

Humans didn't become smart by accident, competition for food and mates caused it.

>chimp-man eats everything, can't cross an ocean or swim to a place with more food
>all the chimp men who can live by figuring out how to fish

rinse and repeat. Also mantis shrimp are pretty fucking smart, and have the best eyes in the animal kingdumb. But I guess they aren't technically insects.

Octopus and crows are as smart as a 7 year old, and use tools.

Octopus will use coconut halves as shelters if they are available and feel threatened, crows will use hooks and sticks to get at grubs and garbage.

youtube.com/watch?v=RUN6c5yWJhQ

When squid adapt color changing skin its not only for camolfuage but also language they speak. See their skin is their throat for language they have critical thinking but non of the mamalian qualities of hyper socializing or ability to pass down information in king run without it being imprented in genes

Just replace the animal used in the early comment with insect.....Yeah I see what youre saying but I can't answer it. I think it has sonething weird to do with adaptations or something like that. Like technically a squid can do all those things but it never came out of the water to try any of it becuase it was so well adapted to its current environment.

exactly, unless something has a problem with it's "prime directive" which is eating, shitting and fucking, nature won't pressure it to become smart.

Humans will regress eventually because life is so fucking easy. The average person can't count change or bake cookies without checking google.

Yeah i never said we got smart on accident. Im saying just from shear mumber of mutations in the inscect famila that maybe some fucking brain bug would come out. I was simply responding with an opinion of what i thought might have been the dom species on earth

Honestly dinos would have been the dom species

Yes completely agree if it aint broke dont fix it.

The reason cephlopods don't "get" smarter or pass down knowledge is because the mother who nurtures the young dies almost immediately after they hatch.

Damn I guess thats some mechanism to ensure there is no competition for resources.

who knows, but I imagine if the mother could survive long enough it would have the capability to teach the young. Since they can learn by watching each other.

Also assassin bugs could arguably be tool users since they use dead bodies as camo.

youtube.com/watch?v=a3YiF-SXyck

Holy shit. That bug is like a fucking serial killer psycho . Watch me blend in with your kind by using the corpses of your dead that I have sucked dry. Jesus if that thing was human size life would be a nightmare.

I know, they are the coolest.

Ummm I don't think early religion can be easily dismissed as it is today lol. You act like early humans knew what the fuck they were talking about jesus fuck they needed it as a way to conceptualize fucking ideas of the world from a human viewpoint. Its not like religion has been around forver but early version were simply tribal at best but was used to teach lesson through song and word. Maybe humans cuaght on later on within the past centuries of the ways to use it for personal gain but honestly your time view is off so much lol. You would have believed all of it had you lived in a different time.

octopuses aren't social enough but they'd be the best candidates

professor peterson fuck off. Religion was a tool the smart monkeys used against the dumb ones. Ya conceptualizing concept abstracts like giving me blow jobs, plowing my fields and cooking me dinner.

>pssst hey, want some cosmic wisdom, just plow my field mang, ill tell you the secret

pfffft

I think a slave is gonna plow the field whether they care about religion or not haha

Its not like humans were forced to farm as early hunter gathers anyway they did becuase it was more energy efficient. They wanted to

How about you plow my field or I hang you and kill your family haha

That's just it, the best slave is one who doesn't realize he is a slave. Just like how you don't realize you reside in an invisible cage your entire life that you can't escape from. The only thing you can do is make your cage bigger. And then after that, you are stuck inside a flesh prison. But hey, I got this magic key called religion, all you have to do is work yourself to death or kill yourself for your king and you can live in paradise.

Sort yourself out, FAG.

>somebody didn't read up on Sumerians and ancient iraq

youtube.com/watch?v=jDsTGVPw1tM

Fuck, sci is full of dumbies. Embrace oblivion.

Yeah poor me in my cage so burdend. I dont care about relgion im just saying your demonizing it becuase of current uses you nust have been tricked early in life to think thats what religion is so now that you grew up you hate it with a passion. I mean most peolple with common sense dont believe in that shit they just conform and pretend and you fell for it hard haha and are still mad to this day.

No one really gives a shit about religion like that. Its not like ita a fucking jedi mind trick haba

8000 year old civilizations aren't current usages. It's always been used for either good or evil.

If it really is so easy to trixk humans why dont you just trick them into working for you? Tell them u got a secret. Theyre trapped in their meat cage lol

You are laughing but that is basically what religion does. Sure it's gotten softer and less intense. But yea especially early on, that's all it was used for. Population suppression.

How do you get all the tribes to live in your city and plow your fields. Just tell them about your magic temple and how you talk to god. It's literally that easy. I guess you never heard of the jonestown massacre.

Stop trying to be hip and trendy faggots by worshiping some professors cock.

Well guns can be used for good and evil so is religiin killing people or people killing people. Guns are a tool so is relgion

I agree humans use it for fucked up shit though. But i just really like to hate on the human himslef moreso than the tools we may be arguing but i do agree with you relig has bee. Used for fucked things for a lonf time but unfortunately was necessary pre 8000 years ago . Like fire was

That's what I fucking said, and the majority of the time it's used for "benefit" at dumb people's expense.

If you want to talk to god, do it on your own. You don't need a fucking middle man.

Seriously, Veeky Forums I thought you were better than this.