Why do governments put fluoride into the water supply if we get enough fluoride from toothpaste? Is it necessary? Also...

It's not a myth that fluoride is added to the water in the USA.

Also I think there should be no medication in the public water supply whatsoever, simply as a matter of fundamental principles.

IT'S TO TURN THE FRIGGEN FROGS GAY

>I'm not saying it's toxic. I'm just asking WHY we put it into water? We get it from toothpaste.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation

Why didn't you just fucking Google it? Veeky Forums really needs its own QTDDTOT threads

>Clearly you imply it when you post a picture of a spook "fluoride alert" with a toxic symbol as your image
I see you're going with the ad hominem attack. Look at the picture I posted.

...

>based on fundamental principles
Such as?

Do you also bitch about being required to get vaccines to go to public school?

>don't attack the clearly inflammatory image I posted with my thread. I'm TOTALLY not alluding to conspiracy tier arguments which I've clearly demonstrated

Vaccines prevent against deadly illnesses. Water fluoride prevents tooth decay (and not even well, look at >8791160).

Why do we treat the SYMPTOMS of a high sugar diet? Why doesn't the government go after the sugar? Big money? Yes, big money.

make logical critical claim
>hurr durr get back to /x/
sure showed them now!

This is a "conspiracy"?

Because it's way easier to get people to drink fluoridated water than to ban kids from eating and drinking sugary shit

>Such as?
Right to bodily integrity, right to refuse treatment, etc..

>Do you also bitch about being required to get vaccines to go to public school?
No, that makes perfect sense. You can just not go to public school if you really don't want vaccines.

But it doesn't even help. If they just looked at the data they would see that fluoridation isn't any better than no fluoridation.

You don't have any reading comprehension.

The point is that such low concentrations can't have any effect on tooth decay, so it's completely pointless. Doing something without any evidence that it would work is unscientific, and mass medication with no dosage control is unethical.

There's a retarded conspiracy on par with the "the government is putting shit in our air" crowd that says fluoride in water has neurologically toxic effects and it's mind control. Op apparently doesn't remember when Veeky Forums was bombarded with this retarded shit for weeks until it evolved into flat earth bullshit

>The point is that such low concentrations can't have any effect on tooth decay, so it's completely pointless.
No it does have dental benefits. See
It apparently shows great success in kids

>with no dosage control is unethical
It is regulated to be controlled between 0.5-1.5ppm. If it goes above that filters are usually distributed to control it. There are many mountain cities and towns that have to defluoridate their water because they receive water from mountain streams naturally that carry excessive amounts of it

I am OP and nowhere did I say that fluoride has neurologically toxic effects and it's mind control.

You seem to be arguing with a point that doesn't exist in this thread.

>Right to bodily integrity

you know it's bad when they resort to rehashing Dr. Strangelove arguments 60 years on

repeat after me guys:

MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH PRECIOUS BOOOOODILLLYYYY FLOOOOIIDDDSS

>everybody drinks the exact same amount of tap water

>posts an inflammatory image with his thread
>no guys I swear I didn't Google anything or read anything please spoon feed me and debunk my initial assumptions about the reasons and use of fluoride in the water

It's an effective form of medicine but has side-effects like any other medicine.

I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure fluoride is supposed to be a topical treatment for the teeth, not something to be ingested.

I could understand putting fluoride in the water supply, it makes sense, but I wish it wasn't there personally, others may disagree.

There is an average tap water consumption yes. How do you think group studies work or populus studies work? Using lots of samples gets rid of inconsistencies in the amounts of relative consumption hence a fucking average

Do you usually attack people's appearance and ignore their arguments?

That is the equivalent of what you're doing now.

>It's an effective form of medicine but has side-effects like any other medicine
There are no known side effects from aster fluoridation after 60 years

>not meant to be ingested
It's water soluble, you just piss it out. So long as it passes the teeth it's fine.

>I'm not an expert
Clearly

>don't attack my implications that I'm making indirectly because I didn't directly say it that means I didn't say it at all even though I'm purposely being inflammatory

>I'm not saying it's X but...
That sounds pretty indicative.

The nation that does it also had the world's largest aluminum refinement industry when they started it. Making aluminum creates a whole lotta fluoride, and it's very hard to get rid of legally.

So, just have the people drink it - end of problem.

...

It's not hard to get rid of toxic waste you realize that? Dozens of chemical companies do it all the time legally. This isn't anything special

I haven't brushed my teeth in weeks, but I do drink water.

You know exactly (((why)))

>Can't afford to go to a dentist, entire mouth feels like a giant cavity

yeaa boyyye health care is exspensive, shoulda just brushed em

I understand what OP is saying.

Not in a conspiracy herp derp sort of way, but honestly, why does the US government put fluoride in our water? Since when and why does the government care so much about our teeth? What if I don’t want my teeth to be perfect and white as everyone else’s? Why does the government make this choice for us? I suppose if they found something to make our hair grow nice and shiny they would put that into our water supply as well?

I don’t believe in conspiracy theories, in fact they annoy the hell out of me, but the question of why the government cares so much about our teeth is a valid point.

It's just a question where people don't have the full information necessary to make a proper decision. They have those in video-games, like in mega-man where you have to jump down a hole but you don't know if it will kill you or take you to the next screen

your entire mouth should be a giant cavity user

>Drilling ensues

>why does the US government put fluoride in our water? Since when and why does the government care so much about our teeth?
It was an attempt to reduce dental cavities sponsored by various dental health experts and agencies like the ADA
>What if I don’t want my teeth to be perfect and white as everyone else’s?
Then who cares the addition doesn't negatively affect you at all. Don't drink from the tap or just drink it because it can't harm you
>Why does the government make this choice for us?
They don't directly. It was about a democratically elected thing. Also it's your local governments not really the state or fed
>I suppose if they found something to make our hair grow nice and shiny they would put that into our water supply as well?
Beyond the scope of the argument. This is purely hypothetical and made up
>I don’t believe in conspiracy theories, in fact they annoy the hell out of me, but the question of why the government cares so much about our teeth is a valid point.
It's not really a point. Because it's not the whole entire Fed doing it. It was acts passed by your local representatives.

nice argument

They don't use sodium fluoride, they use Fluorosilicic acid which comes from fertilizer production. Not aluminum refineries

r u a retard

>Fertilizer

You mean that stuff that runs off into the water supply and causes havoc? Organic gardening is the only answer I can think of..., but I'm not an environmental scientist I always wondered if someone could find a lake covered in algee and figure out a way to make it fine, without getting rid of the fertilizer, I've yet to see an answer

>It was an attempt to reduce dental cavities sponsored by various dental health experts and agencies like the ADA
And they don't do this for any other health problem epidemic because?

This one is super easy to do.

What other simple health fixes can be easily, cheaply implemented with hot any real new infrastructure costs or maintenance? Vaccines are another one of them and benefits society greatly if all it's population is properly protected.

You know water comes from hydrogen peroxide synthesis that's used in drugs, rocket fuel and all this nasty shit. We should ban water while we're at it because apparently you have qualms on the source of some chemical and what it produces

Genuine question here.
Isn't aqueous hydrofluoric acid a weaker acid than hydrochloric acid? Wouldn't then in your stomach the fluoride react with your stomach acid (hydrochloric acid) and form hydrofluoric acid which is very dangerous?

Is the flouride too inert to react? Is the concentration too low to cause noticeable damage?

Removing corn subsides. It has a NEGATIVE cost for positive impact.

It's not hard, but it can become very expensive.

>Isn't aqueous hydrofluoric acid a weaker acid than hydrochloric acid?
Hydrofluoric acid forms an extremely acidic conjugate with water which makes it way stronger than hydrochloric acid.

Hydrofluoric acid will eat through virtually everything that's not a polymer like polypropylene plastic. You said it yourself aqueous HF is extremely toxic and dangerous

Not really, businesses usually have secondary disposal companies to get rid of it. There are provisions in place set by the federal. Government on how to handle and dispose of dangerous chemicals. Sodium fluoride being a solid and only really toxic if ingested as well as a skin irritant. It's not exactly super fucking dangerous and has its own special waste disposal codes. It can probably be thrown in W033 waste for aqueous solutions

pKa of HF: 3.17
pKa of HCl: -6.3
It's more dangerous, but not more acidic. (At least in water.) So again, wouldn't the following reaction happen in your stomach:
[math]\rm{NaF + HCl \rightarrow NaCl + HF}[/math]

I believe that the fluoride would rather prefer to stay with the sodium because it's less electronegative than hydrogen and would want the electrons of sodium more than hydrogen. Fluorine won't switch with chlorine for that deal

Actually you're right it will form HF and sodium chloride. The HCl should be completely dissociated in water because it strongly ionizes the water into hydronium. The NaF shouldn't rapidly dissociate be a use Fluorine is so strong adhering to it but the reaction should go forward because it's energetically favorable regardless of electronegativity

I wonder why HF will notoriously eat through so much more shit than HCl will

The joke

Your head

let me clear up some things about fluoride first

There is no evidence that fluoride is an essential mineral. It has been argued that it might be essential for the bones because it accumulates in the bones. So does mercury, cadmium, lead, thallium, beryllium, arsenic etc.

Fluoride can, if applied to the teeth, make your teeth more resistant to acid due to formation of fluoroapatite (which is unecessary if you don't consume exessive amounts of softdrinks or sweets regularly, and occasionally brush your teeth). For the fluoroapatite to form, the fluoride needs to be delivered to the surface of your teeth. If you ingest the fluoride however, only a tiny fraction of that fluoride will reach your teeth through the bloodstream. So DRINKING it is one of the most nonsensical ways to use flouride one could imagine.

>why do governments put it in the drinking water
politicians arent scientists
>is it necessary
hopefully a rhetoric question as america is pretty much the only country that does that
>is it safe
As far as i know relatively small amounts like that have not been known to cause diagnosed fluoride toxicity but that doesn't mean its good for you.
>scientists have been wrong before
Most scientists don't advocate drinking water fluridation. Politicians aren't scientists.

hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/fluoridated-drinking-water/

Jiménez, L. Valdez, et al. "In utero exposure to fluoride and cognitive development delay in infants." NeuroToxicology (2017).

Hirzy, J. William, et al. "Developmental neurotoxicity of fluoride: a quantitative risk analysis towards establishing a safe daily dose of fluoride for children." Fluoride 49.4 (2016): 379-400.

fluoridealert.org/studies/brain01/

Lu, Y., et al. "Effect of high-fluoride water on intelligence in children." Fluoride 33.2 (2000): 74-78.

But by all means, throw some more buzzwords and ad hominem attacks in there you useful idiot.

Concentrated HF is a strong acid, because it dissociates into H2F+ and HF2- ions. HF is also notorious for eating through bone because of how it reacts with calcium, and damages soft tissue badly because it interferes with nerve function so you don't feel the pain until later.

>hydrofluoric acid orms an extremely acidic conjugate with water which makes it way stronger than hydrochloric acid
wrong
>hydrofluoric acid will eat throuch virtually anything thats not a polymer like propylene plastic
many metals resist hydrofluoric acid
Na+ is not a strong lewis acid so no. And the Na+ and F- arent even touching in solution.
It's mostly notorous for eating through silicate ceramics and glasses. It does that because silicon and fluorine form very stable bonds and because the formed Hexafluorosilicic acid is highly water soluble.

>We get it from toothpaste
Not everyone brushes their teeth

Fluoride is added to water because it's a byproduct of industrial phosphate fertilizer production, and expensive to get rid of. It's generally added in water in 3 main formulations (from different suppliers), none of which are simply fluoride salts, and one of which being volatile enough that precise breakdown products and proportions thereof is nearly impossible to predict. It's also never shown a consistent relationship with rate of dental caries in a given population in a way that, across all literature, wouldn't look like statistical noise. Low level mechanical research suggests it might actually weaken teeth.

Most high quality research on fluoridated water comes out of China, where it's a more natural problem and is shown to correlate with reduction in intelligence and increase in docility. It can also potentiate arterial calcification.

Repeated studies have all shown fluoride has no internal use, and that contact with the tooth surface is trivial to the point of diminished if not outright absent benefit. Early research suggests theobromine is superior for remineralization.

Portland Oregon recently decided to stop wasting money on water fluoridation. Expect future studies showing, again, no meaningful effect on caries rates.

>because it dissociates into H2F+ and HF2- ions
there is no significant autoprotolysis of HF in aqueous solution because water is a much stronger base than HF

>Repeated studies have all shown fluoride has no internal use
I had a patient 85 years of age.
He was living in a village known to have fluoride in their water sources.
This guy had all his teeth in spotless condition.

I was using fluoride tabs as a kid to the age of 12,I haven't had toothache in my life or had any problem whatsoever with them.

My bother and sister underwent the same routine,they also haven't fixed a tooth in their life.

Take it as you will.

So why do dentists still exist?

I'm not one to discard anecdotes, but I really don't think your experience is at all representative. Large scale studies have shown caries rates increase after fluoridation. It might as well all be meaningless noise devoid of any discernible causative agent. What is discernible, is the fluoride is not directly and consistently beneficial.

>anecdotal evidence vs repeated studies

>here about flouride hurr durr
>hmm maybe they're right maybe its not so gud
>google it
>hmm ok seems like theres some pros and some cons
>ask mom
>yea that shits amazing son people's teeth used to be shit now only like real low bums actually are losing teeth

>realize flouride is good
>realize people like OP are just kinda stupid

sorry OP its ok to be a brainlet just make sure to keep ur teeth clean!

Would fluoride found naturally in springs and other mineral water sources still be considered bad by these conspiracy theorists? I mean fluoride is naturally found in the Alps and people consider that to be some of the purest water in the world.

>Would fluoride found naturally in springs and other mineral water sources still be considered bad by these conspiracy theorists?
Would uranium, cadmium, arsenic, certain bacteria, excessive amounts of nickel, lead, etc, still be considered bad by those non-conspiracy theorists? It is naturally occurring, after all. Therefore they must be A-Okay, I'm sure the body has all the machinery it needs to deal with it just fine...

Listen to yourself.

it certainly didn't significantly improve your ability to make a sound argument

Fear mongers got my community to stop water fluoridation, we even had some natural fluoride in the water, had to raise taxes to remove that and as a by product ramp up the chlorine.

Cavities in school kids have increased tremendously, according to my dentist, she had already seen an increase as most kids drink bottled water and a lot of parents purchase "natural" toothpaste with no fluoride.

My grandfather told me people today have no idea how bad people's teeth were before municipalities began fluoridation, every time my dad went to the dentist it was another cavity.

Bad dental health can shorten lifespan and make life pretty miserable, dental infections if not treated can lead to death, it all starts with a cavity.

People are so concerned about fluoride but don't blink an eye about using chemicals to remove layers of tooth enamel in order to have "Movie Star" unnatural white teeth, their not supposed to be Chiclet white.

1950's and 60's were a great time "Making your life better through Science"

So, is it the toothpaste, or the water? Neither? Both?

>fear mongerers
the irony

>1950's and 60's were a great time
>"Making your life better through Science"
lol how clueless can one get

All forms of agriculture use fertilizers... do you suggest we die of starvation?

Can some biofag refute these, or give credence to why my wife doesn't need a filter when pregnant?

>present significant evidence to support the claim that fluoride can negatively affect childhood brain development
>1 reply
If you are ignorant enough to claim that this is a "conspiracy theory" you should probably stop posting on Veeky Forums.

>You'll pass out any extra fluoride

Fluoride doesn't pass out the body. It accumulates in bones and soft tissue, and displaces iodine while doing so. Humans need iodine or they become mentally retarded. Even a small deficiency can decrease IQ a couple of points.

So far the government has:
>banned the sale of iodine
>remove iodine from bread
>put bromide in bread
>put chlorine in public water
>put fluoride in public water

All these things remove iodine from the body which decreases your IQ. Fluoridation isn't about fluoride at all. It's about iodine and making the population stupid.

Wow a "study" based on 4 people, let's give you a nobel prize.

>My grandfather told me people today have no idea how bad people's teeth were before municipalities began fluoridation
Nigga in my country water fluoridation was never a thing (or well very briefly in Amsterdam IIRC but it was abolished soon after it started) and we all have perfectly fine teeth. Maybe your dad should've just brushed his teeth.

>People are so concerned about fluoride but don't blink an eye about using chemicals to remove layers of tooth enamel
Because tooth bleaching products are not added to the public water supply. Who cares that retards fuck up their own teeth?

Why the iodine hate? In europ they sell salt fortified with iodine.

And not a single source was given that day

Mandatory iodization of salt

infowars.com/

>government puts flouride in water
>its a conspiracy!
>we must resist!

>same people
>muh libertarianism!
>fuck of with that regulation
>sugar is horrible for you
>doesn't matter, government has no right!

mfw "don't regulate, we are free" libertarians literally okay with the sugar being marketed towards kids and sold in school; the real conspiracy

>false equivalence
what if both sugar and flouride could be bad for the body?

Those hypothetical people have literally nothing to do with what fluoride does or doesn't do.

Yeah.

They do that here too. That guy is just retarded.

>the LD50 of trans fat is like 500g you're gonna be fine lol there's no long-term effects

lol yeah
dis rite heer !

The cheapest, and most productive health policy ever devised was to put flouride in water to help against tooth decay pubs.acs.org/stoken/presspac/presspac/abs/10.1021/la4008558

However the odds are you do not have flouride in your water supply since the vast majority of cities/municipalities stopped doing this after tinfoilers went bonkers in the 1960s about it. My city of 3 million people stopped doing it in 1971.