Gender is a social construct

Gender is a spectrum, I found out because I am a woman despite being "biologically" male. Just ignore idiots who can't understand this basic concept

I am a kriptonian in the body of a human.
#socialoppression

Do you mean that you are transgendered or do you mean that you are what pretty much everyone would call a woman but possess XY chroms?

ITT: People confuse gender with sex. Without bothering to get informed about the basics of this gender theory, they dismiss it because it seems stupid at face value.

You are replying to a troll, friend

>Without bothering to get informed about the basics of this gender theory,
The split between gender and sex is pretty new and has no real basis

>libcucks think they can recover from this

Sex = Biological difference between males and females. (genitalia, chromosomes, hormones, brain structure, etc.)

Gender = societal differences created arbitrarily to distinguish the sexes based on their social function and social status.
("Blue is for males, pink is for females" or "Weakness is female, strength is male", "Makeup is for females, not wearing makeup is male." And so on. Gender roles are stupid.

There's a large difference between confusing and knowing and denying. I'm well aware of what gender ideology is, but I simply do not believe it is correct and that gender is different from sex in the way they think it is.

Lol no. It's always been there. Attempts to get people to push this to the mainstream is what's new. Your understanding of this is new. Real Feminists already knew this.

Derrida, but he probably didn't mean it.

If you think gender is the same as sex, you haven't understood feminism.

>this is your brain on emotions rather than logic, science, and rationality

How's it feel to be retards?

this desu

>It's always been there.
Yeah sick people were considered sick back then.

There's more valuable discourse in fucking Dr.Seuss books than in the entirety of feminist literature, you fucking mongoloid.

If you think gender is a spectrum, you accept a gender polarity. The point of feminism was originally to abolish gender, not create new ones. That's where this new postmodern gender theory fails miserably. Giving Hydra more heads won't slay the beast.

>arbitrarily

lolololol

We are emotional beings. It only makes sense that we incorporate that fact into our logic.

Women are emotional and thinks with their feels while men are rational and think with logic and science

No amount of liberal anti-white brainwashed can change that

>"How's it feel?"
>saying I'm the emotional one when you're obviously pretty upset

It's ok if you disagree, just please be informed. If you're going to be an anti-feminist, know the proper anti-feminist arguments, not this emotional misinformation.

Go back to the kitchen where you belong, sweetheart. Men are talking here, okay honey?

How does it feel to have never read a fucking history book?

In the 18th century, Aristocrat men wore makeup and high heels.

Now If a guy did that he'd be called a fucking queer.

These are GENDER ROLES.

It doesn't change the fact that guys were still guys.

I'm a male.

Gender=/=Gender roles

I think the most important claim to critique is the claim that gender (-identity) and (biological-) sex vary independently. I repeat; in-de-pend-ent-ly.

Which.
They.
Do.
Not.

I'd be very careful labeling anything as outright (as in 100.00%) "abstract" or "a construct" in this discussion without having massive backing on it.

I'll repeat what Jordan Peterson has stressed for months;

>"There’s not enough evidence to make the case that gender identity and biological sexuality are independently varying constructs. In fact, all the evidence suggests that they’re not independently varying constructs. I can tell you that transgender people make the same argument. They make the argument that a man can be born in a woman’s body and that’s actually an argument that specifies a biological linkage between gender identity and biological sex."

cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.3786140/i-m-not-a-bigot-meet-the-u-of-t-prof-who-refuses-to-use-genderless-pronouns-1.3786144

wow, enlighten me user, which books on feminism have you read?

Sex = dick or vag

Gender = skirts or slacks.

The former is biological. The latter is determined by culture.

I don't read fantasy, kid

>tfw you have a willy and you like having a willy

It's a good feel desu

thanks, that was helpful u pseud

Nice one, Sam Harris.

...

Gender dysphoria is a change in how the person identifies and wants to be perceived. It doesn't mean a male to female transgendered person automatically from birth likes "feminine" things. Had this same person been raised in a society where the roles of feminine and masculine were reversed, the dysphoria would still be there and likely accomodate for this.

But I appreciate an intelligent argument though I think I disagree. Thanks user.

>automatically knows which books are worth reading based on preconceived notions gotten from online videos of ranting young gamers

Give it a shot. When you try something new, you might learn something. Even if you're determined to disagree, it's important to know your enemy and know their argument (to make your own better).

gender theory is sexist bullshit that says actions are gendered. it was made up by an idiot doctor who lead a hermaphrodite kid to kill himself

what's your point?

the role of men didn't change regardless of what they wore, they were still the soldiers and primary breadwinners, women were still mothers and homemakers

gender roles are biologically conditioned because women give birth and men have greater upper body strength, among other differences

Money something I think was his name, a hack psychologist.

>People confuse gender with sex
But they're the exact same thing.

>These are GENDER ROLES.
No, this is fashion.

theory aside, in our current society men and women are treated vastly differently. their roles do have a biological basis but they have been wildly exaggerated. so the definitions of masculine and feminine now are not organic, so a biological woman will someitmes have her natural traits fall into the current definition of masculine, and a biological man will have his natural traits fall under the current definition of feminine. and when you are discriminated against for falling into the wrong box, which is not the same box that naturally corresponds to your chromosomes but was morphed from that into something else, it feels awful, and you feel you are the wrong sex, so you would rather be the other gender.

regardless of the theory i ended up diving into and potentially being wrong about, some people are more comfortable imitating the opposite sex and being severely discriminated against for it than they are being their given sex. which shows, i think, that their feelings must be pretty fucking intense.

I know which spectrum you're on, m8

So? Some people are mentally ill or physically messed up, what does that prove? Fashion as mentioned earlier is very fluid and the fashion of yesterday is faggy today and vice versa, it's not about personal taste but a fucked up sense of identity. You don't need to arbitrarily disconnect gender from sex to explain this, some men just got into their heads that they are women for example. Some women have high T levels and look kinda weird.

You said nothing which supports the notion that gender isn't the same as sex.

>Cardigan wearing

But user, I love my Cardigans.

I knew you were Peterson (Peterson fan) from the in-de-pen-dent-ly
And.
The.
Spacing.

He is so theathrical, I love him.

I just fuck anything that moves and has a smooth skin.

That's a path that leads to you bleeding out on the prison shower floor.

society should not be radically altered to the benefit of very few and the detriment of many

if you're a freak, that's too bad, but you'll just have to deal with it

Butler, via a series of Hegelian readings of Foucault.

fuck, that was ill-worded.

youtu.be/_w0TOJspijA

The two spirits (new term for an old gender) hijra galli and kathoey are all examples of non binary genders that have existed since antiquity.

What about gender do you believe is biologically defined?

(((they))) did

The bulk of research rejects this hypothesis but you embrace it because you irrationally feel that it is true despite the data. Are you a woman?

John Money

I agree with the first statement but I don't see where the detriment to the many is.

shakespeare

get those fucking brackets out of here

>Hasnt read cixous kristeva or butler
is that way kid. You shouldn't be on the lit board if you don't read

The feminist opinion is that sex and gender are different and BOTH are socially constructed.

All these people in this thread defending feminist theory who clearly do not understand it and haven't read Butler. Which means you probably didn't do a shit degree, lucky fucks.

>Every debate about gender on Veeky Forums and /hist/ is shit up because of le SJWs
>Nobody even tries to understand the difference between biological sex and cultural definition, even though they can easily work that into their favor
>A couple people mention Butler, but the rest just repeat the same "PENIS IS GUY VAGINA IS GIRL LALALALALA" or try to act like a radical feminist to piss of those people

>what's my point

My point is that the men of that took part in gender roles that women now take part in. Aristocrats did not fight in wars, or do manual labor. They inherited their fortunes and invested the money, your argument does not apply to all men.

The way they acted was shaped by society, not biology.

The only thing shaped by biology is their genital organs and brain chemistry.

Fashion and gender roles go hand in hand dum dum

John Money, the doctor who performed the first sex reassignment surgery. Go look up the case, it's absolutely horrifying.

>Reimer case
Holy fuck this man was a psyco.Did he write some kind of diary or something?

>The only thing shaped by biology is their genital organs and brain chemistry.
And hormone levels that pretty much determines men and women attitudes and attributes. Men did most manual job not because they decided it 3000 years ago. Men were just fitter to do these jobs. Also hormone levels influence behaviour quite a bit

I remember the episode SVU they based off him lol

Yes and know, there were civilizations that existed where the women did the field work etc., this can also be found in the animal kingdom.

I agree hormones effect behavior, but behavior is also largely determined on society.

*yes and no

>there were civilizations that existed where the women did the field work
Women always did field work.They just did fewer and usually spent more time at home. The only societies in which women became warriors/ the main source of workers was when there were way more women than men.Which also lead to polygamy. And even then women liking male stuff doesn't make them males.

>even then women liking male stuff doesn't make them males

I agree. That' not what I'm arguing.

I am making examples that gender roles are largely dictated by society, something you seem to be agreeing with.

>I am making examples that gender roles are largely dictated by society, something you seem to be agreeing with.
>largely dictated by society
The basis of society is tradition. So pretty much.But all societial roles have pretty deep biolocal roots.The separation between gender and sex is pretty stupid in my eyes

>"because they decided it 3000 years ago"

The Global Men Council got together and agreed on gender roles? Even though different cultures had vastly different understandings and to this day we can't unanimously agree on what makes one a "real man"? These things were determined by the environment and "economy" of primitive man. When agriculture was just starting, women's contributions were great and her social standing was also great.

By the time there was a superabundance in food production and the beginnings of cities, women were subjugated because men, with their superior physical strength, could better protect these crops.

THESE THINGS CHANGE BASED ON THE SOCIAL, ECONOMIC, AND ENVIRONMENTAL STRUCTURES OF A SOCIETY.

By the time of the Industrial Revolution and the rise of capitalism, women were once again regaining their social standings, as they once again contributed to society as Workers, not just mothers.

Where modern feminism fails is in their failure to understand that true abolition of gender (the social contruct that says women are inferior and can only act inferiorly) can only come with a radical restructuring of society: socialism, communism/anarchism, Third Position, etc.

unironically stirner

gender is a SPOOK motherfuckers!!

>because they decided it 3000 years ago
You just skipped the fucking not before that quote. I pretty much agree wwith you, but women and men are also differently mentally. Which is alredy resulting in a division of work in which males mostly focus around trades and technical careers while women stick to more social jobs like teachig,nursing or translatting

>their roles do have a biological basis but they have been wildly exaggerated. so the definitions of masculine and feminine now are not organic

We have no 'asocial' perspective from which to make this claim.

Tell me, what are the 'organic' definitions of 'masculine' and 'feminine'?

Claiming that they're 'exaggerated' or 'social constructs'/etc, does not absolve you of the onus to give us the 'true' definition.

Interesting that before David killed himself his twin brother Brian, who did not undergo any reassignment surgery, also killed himself. Maybe their suicides had less to do with gender/sex and more to do with John Money. David was pretty much fucked before Money showed up, having your dick cut off in a botched circumcision will probably damage anyone.

Women were the first to go to work in the factories. Men were generalists and women were specialists.

Those are not western concepts and even if some people acknowledged the mentally ill in the past then what does that mean?

Money seems like a weirdo and a psyco.The worst part is that my country gave him some laurettes.
>Women were the first to go to work in the factories
Because males were working in the guilds that were about to go extinct or were traders (at least in the cities). Then they moved to the factories+ the inmigration to the cities.Also lots of children worked at the first factories

>when living as Brenda, Reimer did not identify as a girl. He was ostracized and bullied by peers, and neither frilly dresses (which he was forced to wear during frigid Winnipeg winters)[12] nor female hormones made him feel female. By the age of 13, Reimer was experiencing suicidal depression, and he told his parents he would take his own life if they made him see John Money again. Finally on March 14, 1980, Reimer's parents told him the truth about his gender reassignment, following advice from Reimer's endocrinologist and psychiatrist. At 14, having been informed of his past by his father, Reimer decided to assume a male gender identity, calling himself David. By 1987, Reimer had undergone treatment to reverse the reassignment, including testosterone injections, a double mastectomy, and two phalloplasty operations. On September 22, 1990, he married Jane Fontaine and became a stepfather to her three children.

Seems like evidence that gender is a social construct. Even with the physical attributes and upbringing of a woman Reiner still identified as a man.

>Seems like evidence that gender is a social construct. Even with the physical attributes and upbringing of a woman Reiner still identified as a man.

How did you draw that conclusion when it's the fucking opposite?

He was brought up as a woman in every respect, yet he still identified as a man. Therefore, Reimer's gender can't have been social if his biological sex trumped his 'social' gender in the end.

you're a libcuck faggot

The mental differences between men and women exist, but not to the extent that one sex is "better" than another. Each specializes in their own field and it's a VERY blurry line, with tons of exceptions to this general rule of biology.

And let's also not forget the impact the environment has on genes, fetal development, upbringing, and all that.

>but not to the extent that one sex is "better" than another
Both are statistically much better at certain different tasks, this is undeniable. There's a reason why football teams aren't mixed for example.

truue

>libcuck

No, I hate liberals. I'm a communist, not a classcuck xD

>faggot

Gay people are some of the most vicious people on the planet xD They take more hard drugs, are more susceptible to deadly disease, to getting killed/beaten up, get raped/do the raping in prison, are more likely to be suicidal, and atheistic...and yet in spite of all this, they still live longer than most people.

I fucking wish I was as tough as nails as most "faggots."

God

>The mental differences between men and women exist, but not to the extent that one sex is "better" than another. Each specializes in their own field and it's a VERY blurry line, with tons of exceptions to this general rule of biology.
In some cases the differences are huge even then women tend to get pretty bored and have a harder time in most technology oriented careers while are much better at socialazing.In the most developed countries in the world and with the highest parity like Norway the career choices are pretty steriotypical despite the Norweian goverment wasting millions of Euros encouraging women in fields like Physics or Engenieering

>fashion = gender roles
libcucks everyone