War and Peace Read-through: Day Five

Your Excellency! Remember my good posts! I was also the one that posted the reading chart up thread!

We should finish Volume I, and then have the day for catch up, so that day 6 we will be finished with volume 1, and day 7 will be the "catch up day," or "rest day

We've basically already made today/yesterday a catch-up day, so there's no moving it I think.

We could have another catch up day before starting Book Two. I'd not be opposed to a catch up day every 3-5 days.

Let's talk about the second half of Part II then, the day 4 reading

We have seen prince Andrei Bolkóskky with Austrian Emperor Franz I, then later following general Bagration after consulting with with 60 year old, one eyed Kutuzov
With Andrei and Bagration, we are introduced to the boot less artillery captain Tushin, see Dokolov bantering with the French as they face off.

Theb the Battle of Schögraben begins. We are exposed to the "laissez-faire" generalship of Bagration, a hussar cavalry charge with Nikolai Rostov, and the front lines in the eyes of Dólokhov. We also see Andrei Bolkónsky helping Tushin, who is frenzied durin the battle, and truly enjoying himself.
We see the end of the fight, the Russians lost, Rostov is injured by the fire, and Bolkónsky commends Tushin in front of Kutuzov, defending Tushin's situation in which he lost 2 canons during the rout.

How did you guys like this descriptive battle scene? We see a lot of thoughts and changes in Andrei

Rostov is injured by gunfire*

I've been reading ahead but still participating in discussions when I feel I have something to add. Here are some little scenes that seemed strange and impressive to me, from nearly the end of Part Three. The spoilers aren't really for spoiling plot points, but just in case anybody doesn't want to read what's coming up:

From the Battle of Austerlitz, I found an epic simile: "As when a window is opened a whiff of fresh air from the fields enters a stuffy room, so a whiff of youthfulness, energy and confidence of success reached Kutuzov's cheerless staff with the galloping advent of all these brilliant young men."

A second epic simile comes a little later: "But as a youth in love trembles, is unnerved, and dares not utter the thoughts he has dreamt of for nights, but looks around for help or a chance of delay and flight when the longed-for moment comes and he is alone with her, so Rostov, now that he had attained what he had longed for more than anything else in the world, did not know how to approach the Emperor, and a thousand reasons occurred to him why it would be inconvenient, unseemly and impossible to do so."

I suppose these epic similes—the first we've seen so far, if I've been paying attention—are used to create a thematic bridge back to the Iliad, because not only do they have the same structure as Homer's similes (as...so...), they're used in the same time too, i.e. used during war.

The final thing, also from the battle, was just a pretty passage: "All about the field, like heaps of manure on well-kept plugh-land, lay from ten to fifteen dead and wounded to each couple of acres."

It's probably not peculiar that Tolstoy compares the dead littered on the field with animal waste. I think it's a brilliant little simile to help drive home the theme of war being wasteful and petty.

Yesterday (12/20) was the catch up day. Today is for day 4 (12/21), tomorrow (12/22) should be day 5.

>How did you guys like this descriptive battle scene?

The battle scene was excellent. I was really drawn in and felt the sense of urgency while I was reading through it.

In the day 4 section I also enjoyed the contrast between Nikolai's and Andrei's battle experience.

Andrei has a thirst for success in battle and wants to be a hero, but he's mostly running around behind the scenes on his horse coordinating efforts. I thought it was interesting that Andrei noticed that Bagration didn't really do much. He was mostly around for moral support. It's clear after the battle that Andrei is in his element and wants more war.

Nikolai on the other hand was actually in the middle of the battle. There was quite the picture of desperation when he was knocked off his horse, injured, and left behind all alone to run from the French. After the battle Nikolai found himself longing for comfort and his home.

I wonder if the situations were reversed for Nikolai and Andrei, would Andrei rise to the occasion? Would Nikolai enjoy a cushy job as an adjutant? I wonder if we are seeing the true character of these two men, or perhaps a product of their environment in relation to their military positions obtained via their social status.

I liked the battle scene a lot as well. I think my two main observations about it would be this: it feels claustrophobic and it feels disorganized. We're almost always zoomed in on things happening to characters, as opposed to, say, long lines of infantrymen falling from musket fire, and this creates the claustrophobia. As for it feeling disorganized it is as you observed, that Bagration didn't do much, people seemed to be running around doing as they pleased, and orders just come in (or don't!) seemingly out of nowhere.

>claustrophobic
That is a great way to describe it.

Thanks! I'm trying to really understand Tolstoy's style. I had a long discussion with another poster here a week or two ago who gave me some invaluable information and after being very lukewarm towards what I had previously read by Tolstoy (Anna Karenina, Death of Ivan Ilyich, two of his most important fictional works), I've come to appreciate him all the more while reading War and Peace here with you guys. I think he's deliberately created that claustrophobic atmosphere during battle to try and convey to the reader what an individual soldier is likely feeling during it, and it all flows seamlessly together.

Yeah.
One thing that impacted me was the way he describes the whole battlefield like a living organism or some huge force of nature. Like when Captain Tushin perceives the shooting sounds as a breathing, or when Tolstoi describes the army after battle like a slow river.

It's nothing technical, nothing that gives the reader every detail, it's just the point of view of each character against the huge phenomenon that is the battlefield.

Are we sticking with this post to discuss day 5? I know we had some day 4 discussion here due to some confusion.

I really liked the scene where Princess Marya meets with prospective matches (Anatole) and during the time discovers that he has already started a relationship with Amelie.

>everyone constantly considered it a duty to assure Pierre that he was greatly afflicted by the death of the father he had hardly known

That line is so cringeworthy, but so true. Is this book like autism: the novel? Or is Tolstoy just able to write how everyone feels?

It's amazing how much humanity Tolstoy is able to show, of not just a few people and their few experiences, but of countless people and countless experiences. Every little thing in life.

There is so much comfy cringe in this book. I love it. This reading has been my favorite by far, though I liked Andrei at War as well.

>He half rose, meaning to go round, but the aunt handed him the snuffbox, passing it across Hélène’s back. Hélène stooped forward to make room, and looked round with a smile. She was, as always at evening parties, wearing a dress such as was then fashionable, cut very low at front and back. Her bust, which had always seemed like marble to Pierre, was so close to him that his shortsighted eyes could not but perceive the living charm of her neck and shoulders, so near to his lips that he need only have bent his head a little to have touched them. He was conscious of the warmth of her body, the scent of perfume, and the creaking of her corset as she moved.

Is it getting hot in here or is it just me?

>And Pierre, anxiously trying to remember whether he had done anything reprehensible, looked round with a blush. It seemed to him that everyone knew what had happened to him as he knew it himself.

Act casual. There's like a 40% chance no one can see your boner.

>He might perhaps have been able to free himself but that Prince Vasíli (who had rarely before given receptions) now hardly let a day go by without having an evening party at which Pierre had to be present unless he wished to spoil the general pleasure and disappoint everyone’s expectation.

I think we should stick with this thread.

We'll just stick with this thread for discussion I guess, so as not to confuse folk.

So troops, that's us made it a fifth of the way through this reading group. Today's reading concerned:

>Pierre and Helene
>Marya and the visit from Vasili and Anatole
>Nikolai and Andrei
>Nikolai and Tsar Alexander

So, to get the ball rolling, this section took us back to peaceful society, with the concerns of Pierre and Marya, regarding marriage. Has our reading of these "peace" chapters altered since our exposure to the war? Has your attitude changed from the early sections to these later sections, because of the war?

There was one bit of characterization that really stuck out to me and I just want to quote it. I don't really have any analysis or reason for doing so, besides it being an exemplary piece of using detail to suggest broader character, something that Tolstoy might just be the best at doing, of any writer I've come across. It's this:

>Well Lyolya?, he asked, turning instantly to his daughter and addressing her with the careless tone of habitual tenderness, natural to parents who have petted their children from babyhood, but which Prince Vasili had only acquired by imitating other parents.

>“But you despise me. You who are so pure can never understand being so carried away by passion. Oh, only my poor mother...”

This woman is just too funny. I love the desire to make a "pauvre mère".

The war feels removed from all the happenings at home. Is that how Tolstoy intends us to feel? Like it's not really having an affect, and just things that are far off, interesting to consider, but nothing more. They haven't changed my readings of the peace chapters, but I think that is perhaps something worth noting.

I think that is how he's intending to portray it. I think he's tying to put across the disconnection of the society people from the war. The use of French suggests this too, that this section of society doesn't really understand that the war is a real and imminent danger to their lifestyle.

Day 5's reading was Book One Part Three Chapter 1 up to (but not including) Book One Part Three Chapter 9, pages 214-264.

Words read on day 5: 22,294
Time taken: 57 minutes

Total words read so far: 110,631
Total words in book: 563,286
Total time taken so far: 4 hours 40 minutes
Approximate total reading time: 25 hours

We have now read as much as Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban.

My fav guy

Keep up the good fight

Damn, I wish I heard about this reading group before it started.

>tfw 260 pages behind
There's no way a slow reader such as myself could catch up. I just bought War & Peace a couple weeks ago too. Shame

New 1 question poll: strawpoll.me/11936599

If you are no longer participating or considering it, please tell us your reasoning.

There will be more catch up days, so try to stick with us even if you are behind.

Thanks! Before this group I never thought I'd read W&P. Just seemed too long to tackle. Having obtainable structure has made it possible, and the book has been much better than I expected. With a title like War and Peace and being over 1,000 pages long, I thought it would be very dry and boring.

If you're a very slow reader, there may be no hope, but there will probably be another catch up day in the next few days. So if you started today, you'd only be 4 days behind, like 163 pages.

Alternatively, there is a Count of Monte Cristo group starting tomorrow! Most people like to let War and Peace age on their shelf a few years before starting it anyways.

Poll: polljunkie.com/poll/yagszq/war-and-peace

Downloads (ebooks and audiobook):
mega.nz/#F!4QVj1b4B!BMF7h3um_c5qWHQCP_aw6g

Audiobook reading by Alexander Scourby (google it if you need the file): c56063307dfb59ef87f9aed222c06ef296723ebe

If anyone wants the epub for a different English edition let me know. If you have other ebooks I should add to the folder, please post them.

Currently a day ahead since I did not take a day off.

Also how do we think Pierre's marriage is going to affect him? I think he is going to continue to be used for his money.

>Also how do we think Pierre's marriage is going to affect him? I think he is going to continue to be used for his money.

I think it's going to get to him eventually and will result in a meltdown or explosion. Pierre is so caught up in doing what is expected of him and what will make others happy. I have a feeling he will ultimately reach a breaking point.

He should have went they way Marya and avoided the marriage! By the way how brutal was Marya's father? I genuinely felt bad for her, even though the end result was likely for the best.

The old prince is a horrible person. At first I just thought he was shrewd and crotchety, but after what he did to Marya I think he is a self-centered bastard. Reading about the other women doting on Marya was so pitiable. I don't think Nikolai manipulating his daughter is for the best for her, only best for him. And he doesn't even like her, he's just accustomed to her. I think his relationship with his daughter is causing her tremendous harm and she just doesn't see it.

>The old prince is a horrible person
Gee, what gave it away, the ludicrous autism or the daughter's fear of her own father?

When should our next catch up day be? Day after tomorrow, so the end of Book One?

I think having 5-10 catch up days over the course could help people who fall behind, and though it would stretch out the read-through it wouldn't be really bad.

To those further behind than day 4, where are you?

>ludicrous autism

Every single one of Tolstoy's characters. His descriptions of characters is basically explaining their autistic tendencies.

You're wrong. The book is centred on the divide between the righteous autist and the disingenuous normie: the Pierres, coat-of-arm-fags, and Bolkonskys vs. the Pavlovnas and the Vasilys.

If you can read 2 hours a day you can catch up man, we have blank days when we don't read, so don't sweat it. Pick it up and join us!

youtube.com/watch?v=W6Aamx_897c

I can't say I agree. Tolstoy's treatment of autism is more complex than that.

I like the fact that Pierre and Andrei's autisms aren't like the Underground Man's autism. It isn't a mark of the outsider. Tolstoy's theory of autism reveals its universality, through a slick reversal of the normal logic. The disingenuous normie's disingenuity is precisely their autism, their reverence for the social codes aspergic in nature. Autism, in the Tolstoyan sense, is a universally motivating logos, and even his normiest characters express to some degree thus underlying Wille-zum-Autismus

The old prince, Nikolái Andréevich Bolkónsky, is a bit of an asshole. But it pays off, his eldest kid, Andréi Nikoláevich Bolkónsky specifically asked him to raise his kid when the his wife gives birth. He knows that strictness is needed to raise a good child. The young Andrei is the most competent of all of the young characters we've seen, and this is because he's been raised well by his father

A catch up day at the end of volume one is a good call. We should have 2 catch up days each volume, maybe 3. But 2 each volume seems enough.

He gives some faults for the characters, it's something that makes them human.
At least he's not giving them some edgy romantic bullshit.
Or, like mentioned, it's not an autism that swallow the rest of the character, there's space for other things.

True, he is conscious about the weakness of his father and how it can get harsh sometimes. He evens test his sister about this, provoking her about the controlling nature of the Old Prince and how it affects her.
But Andrei still prefers to give his child to the old man...

It's being great so far. The bad thing is that I already know that I'll not be able to finish it with you guys, I doubt I'll do any reading this weekend. Also will be travelling from 28th to 2nd.
Let's see, maybe I'll binge read the book when I come back.

How are you guys feeling endurance-wise? Anyone getting tired of the book yet?

I'm pretty enthralled still. There are so many different characters and little sub-plots and scenes that the amount of variety is, anything, a little overwhelming. Not at all how I felt when I read Anna Karenina.

Can I still join?

Absolutely. We're having another catch up day soon, so get started!

Downloads (ebooks and audiobook):
mega.nz/#F!4QVj1b4B!BMF7h3um_c5qWHQCP_aw6g

I'm still going strong, like you, I am enthralled

Yeah dude, if you can read 2-3 hours a day you can catch up to us no problem. You may have to read more, but you can skim and use spark notes if you are having trouble, and once caught up, you'll be fine. The reading itself isn't very hard.

Better she end up pious or with her father than in an ultimately loveless marriage with Anatole. Her father may be an asshole, but the whole family seems to understand on some deeper level that he loves them and wants the best. I mean he's clearly at least a good judge of character considering that he condemns Vassily and Anatole.

New running poll for WaP: strawpoll.me/11938641

>no Bourienne-waifu

>How are you guys feeling endurance-wise? Anyone getting tired of the book yet?

I'm feeling great. I absolutely love this book, it's very easy to read. I'll have no problems completing it.

I just finished the day 6 reading and -- woooo wee! I couldn't put the book down towards the end there. It's getting really good.

Book 3 is where we've finally gotten to know the principle characters enough to care and tasted a bit of action. I doubt I'll be able to stop reading after Austerlitz.

That first quote is a perfect description of a moment i had in my life. When you realize and get excited with someone that you never paid attention.

>Has our reading of these "peace" chapters altered since our exposure to the war?
They keep going with their parties, their schemes. War is just a topic that is present in some conversations, but there's no anxiety there. No sense of urgency.
Because of this, i feel even more disdain for the bullshit of the high society.

The part of the Rostovs reading the letter of their son didn't alienate the war so much, but they still treat it as a romantic thing. Although this is a way of alienating it too. The mother thinking about her son was a cool thing.

>how do we think Pierre's marriage is going to affect him?
He will get fucked. He's losing control of his own life.

I'm not bored at all. This book is fucking great.

Kek

Is stroganoff named after the Stroganov is the book? What's with that? This makes me want to eat some stroganoff, are you guys familiar with that dish? How do you folks make it?

It's named after the real life Stroganov family, which was one of the most powerful aristocratic families in the Russian Empire.

>He will get fucked

Well, SOMEONE will get fucked, I doubt it's going to be Count Blue Balls Bezukhov

Ok I'm only just up to part two.
50 pages/day is way too ambitious, some of us have jobs and families and sheeit.
Enjoying it so far though. I've put aside the modern algebra textbook to try catch up but I've accepted that I'm gonna lag on this one.
Disclaimer: haven't read this thread properly because spoilers
Disclaimer the second: I'm drunk and also a total cunt please disregard me entirely.

Yeah, I'm just up to Volume II and yeah, it is a bit ambitious, but that's why I think that two catch up days a Volume will work in the groups best interest. We (people who have taken any breaks) should actually be on day 5, as the thread name says. I think 2 break/rest days are enough per volume. I'm pretty sure the OP concurs. Thoughts? We really need to make this shit crystal clear, because if the readers of the group do not have clear instructions, the whole read along is at a loss. Again, thoughts? Any constructive feedback is useful.

My preposition is that, as we are on day 6/7 of this read though, we call the chart days "sections" or "parts" instead of "days". Because by the next thread, we will be on reading "part" (using the proposed new term) 6 of the reading, but this read through will have lasted 7 days.
I propose this because we can easily track how long we have been reading as well as organize reading "parts" and break days with more ease.

Of course, if my wording is off, or if this is not reasonable at all, that feedback would be appreciated as well.

But, if we have a strong, organized, and developed procedure in which we have these read alongs, future read alongs will be conducted with much more ease.

The reason I'm concerned about the state of the read among, is because we have a record of 0 for 2 on successful read alongs, and if this one was not only a great and successful read along, it should also set an example for each one for the future!

God bless you all, it's 1:49 and I want to sleep.
My best wishes to my fellow Tolstoy readers

This is a good post, i will remember it, your excellency.

I prefer "Reading Day 6" instead of "part 6" to organize the threads. And "Catch Up Day" for the day we don't read. Because the book is already divided in parts, it could get confusing.
But i agree with everything else you said.

if we decide to have the off-days as discussed i think we at least need a new schedule to make it clear.

>Tolstoys theory of Autism
Holy...

Right? Too caught up in memes.

These new terms that you came up with are better and will lead the way with less confusion. I approve!

>Vera
W A I F U M A T E R I A L

Vera > Marya > Natasha > Julie > Sonya > Lize > Hélène

This may be the best taste in waifus I have ever seen. Still, even you fall short. Wisemen know the truth:

Vera > Marya > Lize > Helene > Julie > Natasha & Sonya

>Natasha this low
>Lize this high

Good job for bumping up Helene though. Perfect mid-tier waifu

Natasha is the best waifu

it's hard not to want to take Sonya out of pity though

I ain't no paedophile. Natasha and Sonya are just vanilla, compared to broken Vera and Marya. Broken girls a best.

Wait, what age are Natasha and Sonya at this stage in the book? I thought they were at least UK age of consent

What's good about Hélène? She's dull as dishwater and will cuck you with her brother.

I just finished the book so it's not pedo for me

You can't waifu someone you've watched grow up, it's weird.
100% pedo, pedo. End this sick filth.
You've answered your own question.

Helene is a beautiful sophisticated lady you fucking pleb

Only six months have passed since the start, they're like 13.

>you can't waifu someone you watched grow up

Back in these times that's usually how it worked though

Back in those times you could fuck a thirteen year old.

Pedo.

The only people talking about fucking retards are Natashafags.

These posts aren't replacing others, thread would be on page 6 right about now.

+1

This.

Moving on then, who is best husbando and why is it Andrei?

Napoleon obviously

Hide the thread then.

Yeah I'm gonna go with Napoleon. Andrei's top-tier though, if mainstream af. The Count Rostov is underrated.

You would rather no discussion at all so hide it and you won't have to read any.

You mean when people were discussing schedules and autism theories?

Definitely Nikolai for me

Natasha best waifu. Nikolai best husbando. Rostov best family

fuck this shit since by replying to you all I'm only making it derail more I guess.

You got a fucking problem with the Wille-zum-Autismus bub?

I can't say i agree fully but i do like the way the Rostov siblings interact with each other

These 3 dudes won't stop, thanks for your effort Comrade

But I can't contribute to the thread. I'm only just beginning Part Two.

>google tolstoy pull ups
>nothing
How disappointing.