How would you go about detecting methanol in ethanol with only limited equipment?

How would you go about detecting methanol in ethanol with only limited equipment?

I'm in the developing world and methanol contamination in the local rice whiskeys is a big issue, and unfortunately sub-standard pre-packaged alcohol is being imported from developed countries

re-distilling is a logistical issue, as it would require re-bottling and locals don't have the facilities for this
and batches are generally small, making mass-re-distilling unfeesable

I also doubt I can get access to sodium dichromate, in fact "chemical" and "pure" don't belong in the same sentence out here

normally I would smell the contamination immediately, bu the local whiskey is foul to begin with and goji berry is often added as a flavoring which (coincidence, coincidence) has a very similar after-taste to methanol

Other urls found in this thread:

researchgate.net/publication/269167841_Rapid_Quantitative_Analysis_of_Ethanol_and_Prediction_of_Methanol_Content_in_Traditional_Fruit_Brandies_from_Romania_using_FTIR_Spectroscopy_and_Chemometrics
books.google.com/books?id=fbHOAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PR113&lpg=RA1-PR113&dq=heated copper wire methanol in ethanol detection&source=bl&ots=nCyR9j03nY&sig=3H6TywVb06w4aKrOvG5Ys6JVG4M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT0_qPjqzUAhXDMj4KHQRsCRwQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=heated copper wire methanol in ethanol detection&f=false
cyprusfoodndrinks.com/upload/20110621/1308636427-21913.pdf
chem.libretexts.org/Core/Organic_Chemistry/Fundamentals/What_is_the_pKa_of_water?
enzyme.expasy.org/EC/1.1.1.244
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formose_reaction
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Couldnt you just heat the whisky until it reaches methanol's boiling point, and measure how much mass is lost ?

I considered re-distilling early on, but the issue would be as follows

A. it would require opening every individual bottle of spirit, and since re-bottling isn't available it wouldn't be sustainable or financially viable
B. batches are small, often from a single household, to effectively re-distil the spirit I would have to blend a number of batches together to complete this process en-masse.
The villagers trade moonshine on reputation, sellers with more valuable moonshine wouldn't participate as it would effectively create a base price
C. I can get access to accurate thermometers, but fuel here is on the form of charcoal so reaching the precise kind of temperatures required would probably result in waste
D. because of low accuracy I would have to distil a large sample

your tounge

OP, are you still here? I can't help with your question, but I can help with treating the people that are poisoned.

Will the government cover the cost of an antidote?

From what you've said, I doubt you're going to be able to do so; but if you got your hands on an FT-IR spectrometer, you might find success.

This paper might be of interest: researchgate.net/publication/269167841_Rapid_Quantitative_Analysis_of_Ethanol_and_Prediction_of_Methanol_Content_in_Traditional_Fruit_Brandies_from_Romania_using_FTIR_Spectroscopy_and_Chemometrics

You wouldn't need to do the chemometric analysis, unless you want to quantify the methanol.

>limited equipment
>FT-IR spectrometer
better get searching on ebay OP

Methanol is more acid than water, ethanol isn't.

the government can't even cover the cost of bottled water or fixing the roads, which look like they were cluster bombed

will look into it, thanks

would that require me to
A. test the ethanol content
B. get pure ethanol (not hard) and delude it to the same concerntration
C. devise a way of comparing the relative acidity

therpas that is actually managable, I ould get pure ethanol relatively easily and maybe I could get some kind of PH spectomitery with phenolphaline

surely I could derive that from something, they don't have red cabbage here but maybe there is some other botanical
it's frustrating there is aduch a diverity of plants here but if it's not rice, bananea, rubber of vegetables the locals don't care

trying ot type sensibly, but drunks asf

>I'm in the developing world and methanol contamination in the local rice whiskeys is a big issue

It a self fixing problem. Shitskin drink poison - shitskin dies

the damage is generally cumulate, causing premature blindness among other things

but the villagers don't read much small print, and the delay in the effects means a bad batch of moonshine isn't retrospectively identifiable

and these people arn't "shitskins" /pol/, and let me tell you I've been in places where I'd use that description.
they are just simple farmers getting ripped off by everyone

countries dump substandard food and liqor here, te locals are exploited for cheap labour woring on farms foreigners own, the government gets that investemnt by being a tax haven so the governmetn has nothing to invest

as a white man, I feelthe need to correct this

>trying ot type sensibly, but drunks asf
That's another way to test for methanol.

I haven't actually done this in practice, but a solution of ethanol in (pure) water should have neutral pH whatever the concentration. Maybe there are other moderately acid or basic substances in the actual drink that fuck with the pH.

Testing for methanol using sodium dichromate:

Add 10 drops of the alcohol to be tested to a test tube.
Sulfuric acid will react with sodium dichromate to form chromic acid, which can oxidize the alcohol.

In a separate test tube, mix 8 mL of the sodium dichromate solution with 4 mL of dilute sulfuric acid. Gently swirl the test tube a few times to mix the two components. Take up a portion of this mixed dichromate solution in a dropper.

Add 10 drops of the mixed dichromate solution to the test tube containing the alcohol. Swirl the test tube gently a few times.

Fan the air around the mouth or opening of the test tube toward your nose. The fanning should be done with the test tube around 8-12 inches away from your face. Take note of the smell.

Methanol is present if a pungent, irritating odor can be smelled. This pungent odor comes from methanal, which forms from the reaction of methanol with acidified sodium dichromate. A dominating fruity odor without any pungent smell indicates that only ethanol is present and there is no methanol. The fruity odor comes from ethanal, which forms from the reaction of ethanol with acidified sodium dichromate.


Tip:

If methanol is present, there is a chance that the pungent odor may be faint. Ask the help of a person who has a good sense of smell who also does not have an allergy or bad reaction to pungent odors.

Warning:

All of the chemicals used in the test must be considered to be toxic and harmful. Avoid contact with these chemicals at all times and utilize protective gear such as goggles, gloves and laboratory gowns. Do not smell the test tube directly, instead, fan the air around the mouth of the test tube. Conduct this test only in a safe environment with proper ventilation and away from children. Do not perform the smelling if you have an allergy or a bad reaction to pungent odors.

Just use chromatography and IR my mans

He literally said he doesn't have access to sodium dichromate.
>as a white man, I feelthe need to correct this
I hope you get paid for this.

What country? I'm guessing somewhere like Laos or Cambodia. You may be surprised what the government will fund, but you're probably right as the antidote is not cheap (but treatment with ethanol is). Perhaps you should check.

I'm in pharma, and I hold the license. Its quite hard to secure supply so if you're interested, let me know.

you might not believe it but I did in fact google it before asking Veeky Forums

if you even read the OP I mention it specifically
>I also doubt I can get access to sodium dichromate, in fact "chemical" and "pure" don't belong in the same sentence out here

but thanks for calling!

yea nobody is going to pay me for shit, everyone her wants a handout
teachers tell me "our school is desperately in need of library"
doctors say "we desperately need medical supplies"
etc etc

but if you offer to provide material support, guess what
"no, no we need money"

pro tip: never give money to foreign charity, every single day I see offices build by NGO' abandoned because they ran out of funds, projects that could be sustainable but the locals are simply to lazy/shortsighted to support; and corrup officials that gut projects because big foreign charities have no oversight

*drops mic*

I'm no chemist, but my understanding is that ethanol competes with methanol in the system
....so if you basically induce vomiting and OD someone with ethanol will it shield them from the methanol?

not that it would matter, cases here are generally chronic, whereas cases in the developed world are usually ingestion of concentrated methanol
Were not going to have anyone present in a clinic for drinking moonshine that may not have been right, fuck they don't even present for major injuries

how soon after injestation would the antidote need to be supplied?

Isn't there a test for methanol in ethanol using a heated copper wire? If you put it in the ethanol it should change colour if there is any methanol, I'm pretty sure. Pls chemfags confirm.

TLC, if you have access to solvents. But if you dont have access to solvents you cant do shit anyway

I can get acetone, paint stripper, industrial de-greaser (god knows what's in it)

any ideas?

interesting, would like to know more

there is books.google.com/books?id=fbHOAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PR113&lpg=RA1-PR113&dq=heated copper wire methanol in ethanol detection&source=bl&ots=nCyR9j03nY&sig=3H6TywVb06w4aKrOvG5Ys6JVG4M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT0_qPjqzUAhXDMj4KHQRsCRwQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=heated copper wire methanol in ethanol detection&f=false

but it isn't great and it requires resorcinol

>Heat on flame a copper wire till red hot.
>Extinguish the flame.
>Open bottle of alcohol.
>Take small quantity in a beaker.
>Dip the copper wire quickly into it.
>If it is methanol, you will get distinct pungent smell of formaldehyde.

Found this for clarification, should work tee bee aych. Nothing too wrong with it, a good friend and chemist mentioned a test for methanol like this and I just remembered it.

Also, apparently;

>Methanol burns green with a bit of boric acid mixed in it, while ethanol does not.

though that one might not be for qualitative detection

The copper thing really should work, check with someone experienced if you want to use it tho OP

Could you get testing kits? That's probably the most reliable way without messing around with apparatus and harmful chemicals.

cyprusfoodndrinks.com/upload/20110621/1308636427-21913.pdf

Alternatively something I supppse could work that others haven't mentioned - you could do the iodoform test (NaOH and iodine) to excess which would remove the ethanol and then carry out a further general test for remaining alcohols, which would only be the remaining methanol.

try cleaning the windows with your 'alcohol'
if you get drunk while doing that, its alcohol...
if you get blind, then it was methanol.

>test the ph
Incredibly dumb.
Not only are the acidities almost the same, both are less acidic than WATER. And the liquor is flavored with BERRIES. And even if it isnt, it contains traces of acetic acid from the fermentation, some of it is distilled over because its about as volatile as water.

light it on fire


prove this isn't the best way

Iodoform test works with ethanol because its oxidized to acetaldehyde first. Obviously methanol will be oxidized to formaldehyde too. So no.

wrong
chem.libretexts.org/Core/Organic_Chemistry/Fundamentals/What_is_the_pKa_of_water?

is probably the best method

He didnt say redistill it, just boil a small sample of it slightly past methanols boiling point for a short period of time and measure how much is lost. Not for purification, but to test it for methanol.

crowdfund an NMR machine, fampai.

Don't know if it'd work as a feasible solution, but it'd be a good long term goal, probly.

>industrial de-greaser
potentially you could look into enzymes in the de-greaser and perform an enzyme assay where you test for methanol with enzymes that have a high affinity methanol


protip: enzymes and proteins can be isolated from a solution based on size, weight or charge

Oh, now that you mention it, I'm not sure, but I think I recall some enzymes react pretty drastically in response to methanol. You might be able to design a method of using something that changes pH in response, so you don't have to measure pH, but rather a change in pH when the enzyme is added, to determine relative purity.

Plus, dependent on the enzyme, they can be pretty cheap to just order a fuckton of it, since PCR has become such a cheap process.

enzyme.expasy.org/EC/1.1.1.244

>pKa of methanol is 15.5
>pKa of formaldehyde is 13.3

I'm not much of an acid-base chemistry expert, but I think that might be a noticeable difference.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formose_reaction

Change it to sugar after changing for aldehyde. Then reduce the ethanal to ethanol?

Give a shot to somebody you don't like and see if they go blind.

If you like everybody, use a dog or monkey or some rats.

Imagining how you would go about deluding ethanol gave me a good chuckle, thanks.

Deleting, read your post exactly backwards, sorry

Try playing with thermodynamics to get the Henrys constants.

You cannot efficiently separate ethanol and methanol via distillation
they both form azeotropes and their boiling points are rather close so even at methanol's boiling temperature significant amount of ethanol vill vaporize as sell

Imagine doing this in front of third worlders though. It would look like some fucking witchcraft.