Was it rape or did Lolita actually wanted to fuck him?

Was it rape or did Lolita actually wanted to fuck him?

Didn't you read the book? She initiated it.

Humbert is still a degenerate paedo, though.

>She initiated it.
That´s what Humbert tells us but remember he is writting for a jury and he is literally mentally ill so his perception of reality must be pretty fugged up

Somewhere in between. There are persuasions/tricks pedophiles use other than outright rape which could lead to seemingly consensual relationships that are nonetheless abusive. Also, he essentially corners her, it's not like Lolita picked him up because she was so hot for him. Plus the unreliable narrator bit

The two are not mutually exclusive. Rape is sex without consent. We do not allow girls Lolita's age to consent to sex with men Humbert's age.

Both, dumb fuck

ALL SEX IS RAPE YOU FUCKING MISOGYNISTIC PIG!11

How can a man look as good as Jeremy Irons?

It's both
Legally and morally he should not have been having sex with her
You still want him to though, that's how you know you've been Vladamir'd

I'm pretty sure he's addressing the reader as the Jury, and him being mentally ill is just like, your opinion.

Lolita was a little hoe before Humber raped her.

She was the kind of female that tells "no" while wanting to do it. She doesn't outloud says "fuck me", but she doesn't deny it as well. So, Humbert was a victim.

She raped him

Yes it was rape.

Remember she cried EVERY night once she thought Humbert was asleep.

Although it was complicated

>Victim shaming

She wanted it to happen. Then she found out Humbert was absolutely nuts and fell in love with another old guy. The she ditched Humbert.

hahaha good one. for serious.

am I supposed to believe that girl is younger than 24?

I think she was 17 when they filmed it

Everyone please read Ada

Why are children considered incapable of consenting? We used to have children at 12. 12 year olds ruled kingdoms and led armies and shit. I don't think much has changed biologically since then. Besides, your brain doesn't even fully develop till your about 25, but we set 18 as the arbitrary number.

...

I feel like when you're a kid, being approached by pedophiles, you try to regain control by turning the predator's desires and wishes into you're own. Sort of the same mentality as "I'm not fired, I quit!"

Idk

Yes, why do you think people who are raped have a higher chance of becoming rapists?

This

She wasn't though.

You think it's better for a 12 year old to have sex with some idiot 15 year old jock rather than a sophisticated older man?

I really hope you're a troll and not a true pedo apologist. If you're the latter get fucked.

She wasn't a virgin but that can't be attributed to her consent too.

lmao

>we don't set age of consent with what is biologically reasonable: it's too low.
>why do we have stupid age of consent law anyway
You're an idiot

This. If you ever have a job at a community centero f a YMCA or something similar, they will often train you to watch for signs that pedophiles are leading kids into "consenting" or whatever. It's a process called grooming, where the pedophile manipulates the kid into doing sexual things with them, usually by making himself out to seem like a nuturing parental figure/mentor.

It's no coincidence that pedophiles tend to justify their crimes with some variation on this theme, saying stuff like where its either outright stated or implied that the relationship is okay because its just a mature older person helping a younger person come to some type of sexual understanding. It's really a manipulative person taking advantage of a not-quite-fully-formed human being for the purposes of sexual abuse.

Further note: Sexualization of sexually immature children is often, but not always, indicative of previous sexual abuse in the pedophile's childhood being projected onto another. If I can do this and make it okay, the idea might go, then it wasn't actually an incredibly traumatic experience for me as child, it wasn't actually bad and horrible when I was abused.

Pedophilia is a mental illness, children do not have the maturity or ability to understand sexual activity to the extend necessary to give consent, and pedophiles are harming others in an effort to cope with how they were harmed in their own childhoods.

Not agreeing with the user you're responding to, but she kind of was. Don't get me wrong, it's irrelevant whether or not she was, i don't mean to discredit the character, but having sex with a guy who just fucked your friend behind a bush because that friend told you so when you're 12-13 is pretty much the definition of 'little hoe'.

I was with you up untill the point of "pedophilia is a mental illness".
It is in some case and i wouldn't normally be nitpicking this much, but since you were being thorough. Pedophilia in many cases might as well be sadism related, culturally determined (as in the age of consent laws being different) or exist as an outing of lust that others are just not willing to normalise. I don't think that because in many cases it's a form of perversion it deserves the term 'mental illness', which would undermine the accountability of a number of child molesters who made a calculated descision when an oppurtunity arose, influenced by a mix of desperation, frustration and lust. Now you could still argue if H.H. falls in that category (but i don't think he does).

Again, just wanting to be thorough here. (And i did not spellcheck this whatsoever)

You're right, "mental illness" probably covers some but not all of it, and probably is an unhelpful definition in the majority of cases.

Insightful post desu senpai

I'm referring to people that say children can't consent because they don't have fully developed brains. If you say that then 18 year olds can't consent. Humans are capable of having children at around 12. My argument is just that it's arbitrary, based on culture. 12 year olds are adults in some cultures; 18 year olds in others. Personally, I don't think you should have children till you're 25+, fully developed mentally.

Do you not understand that Humbert was written as an unreliable narrator and that he was framing Lolita's actions through is own warped lens to justify his own actions? Kids being curious about sex is natural. At that age the concept of a relationship, promiscuity, and fidelity are not fully formed if even considered.

She was 15.

But kids are ready physiologically for sex at a very young age. 12-13...
How does it make sense to say they are not ready?
on the same note I can say that a smart person or a person with a lot of experience at cahrming others is actually manipulating others into having sex with him...
I can also say that a 30 year old is a much more "mature" human being than a 20 year old and thus a 30 year old having sex with a 20 year old is actually abusive...

I can totally agree with the idea that a person who is physically underpowered versus another might be in a situation of abuse but then women are almost alwyas at a physical disadvantage and yet we consider them able to lead normal lives with their male and physically superior partners..

There are degrees of preparedness, degrees of maturity.

An especially mature and experienced 12 year old may very well be ready for sexual relations, but there's no way to know for sure and it's an extreme edge case which has little or nothing to do with actual child abuse, where an older person takes advantage of someone for his own sexual gratification. Using this edge case to justify the abolition of a legal age of consent is deliberately disingenuous, putting the edge case before the normal case in order of importance.

>other people can manipulate others into having sex with them
Yes, and that's probably morally objectionable, but it comes down to the fact that children can't be held to be fully responsible for themselves while a 20 year old person has to be considered responsible for themselves, even if they're too stupid or foolish to handle it.

You know all this of course.

I agree with everything you said. Though I'm not so sure he does know all of this. He sounds underage himself.

He probably knows it, but isn't capable of articulating it easily or fully. That's how I was when I was younger.

Feckin wew

>Using this edge case to justify the abolition of a legal age of consent is deliberately disingenuous
i think you don´t know how laws can change in order to exceptional cases. anyway the law is the law. i think it´s not so easy say who was mature and experienced 12 years old like you try to show.
i mean, if you fuck a 12 years old you go to jail. fuck exceptions.

>i think you don´t know how laws can change in order to exceptional cases.

I think I am not 100% certain what you meant, but I'll exert some epistemic charity and assume you meant I wasn't fully aware of how well laws can be crafted to cover edge cases. To which I will reply that it doesn't matter, because there's still no way to be totally certain someone is mature enough to engage in sex, and that generalities are as good as we can do without ultra-high fidelity realtime brain-scanning and interpreting technology.

Ofxourse it's natural and i'm aware H. Is framing her in his mind, justifying himsepf but her behaviour is still what would be popularly called a little hoe, unrightfully so, but that was not the point.

>no way to be totally certain someone is mature enough
this is the problem. it´s no way in the two sides. we assume the children can´t be mature enough (and i agree). but i can´t know for certain, and i feel like i say that normally they aren´t (mature) because a prejudice thinking and appeal to common sense (something i feel a little cringy in plenty of themes, although not in this), maybe the pedos misleading me and confuse me, i dont know.

i want better reasoning to being wrong fuck children, but to me is something that not need to explain.

>sorry for my english

>he is literally mentally ill
what's it like being unable to read a good book without inserting your own retarded ideas

pedophilia is the new witch hunt of society
even if a pedophile hasnt hasn't committed any crimes if his secret comes out he'll be thrown out from any institution he belongs to and likely disowned by his family

a lot of anti-pedo rhetoric relies on the same chewed up argument and there are reasons against it but the reason it's the most hated thing in society is purely cultural

That's reasonable. I think pedophiles should be given therapy and psychoanalysis by qualified experts who can coach them through whatever it was that caused their sexualities to form so abnormally. Going overboard causes more problems than it solves. But efforts to justify pedophilia are dangerous, and will result in harming children if taken to their logical conclusions.

Well yeah, its a generalization, you're going to have SOME kind of error. But it's way better to error too high than too low with the age of consent, for the plainly obvious reason that's it's definitely better to force a mature child to wait a little while to engage in sex than it is to allow unscrupulous adult pedophiles to take advantage of unformed children en masse.

>therapy and psychoanalysis
pseudo-science garbage 2bh

People should be allowed to take those if they want but it shouldn't be obligatory, most adults are capable of containing themselves.
For every child molested by a pedophile there's probably 10 or more who live normal lives, but because of the stigma no one knows they exist and we only hear of the molesters, which forms the current idea of pedophiles we have.

I've talked with a lot of pedophiles online and many are against even the idea of child pornography so that already shows that sex offenders are likely a minority

you talk very judiciously. i suppose i think too much in the "rights" of pedo people.

i talk too with that internet pedophiles. and they always said that they believe in a relationship with a child. something like a romantic relationship, which is very morally problematic too.

Those are some wide fucking shoulders.

This. He also probably pushed Del's mom in front of the car, whereas he said she ran out in front of it.

*Dolores