Shitty aspiring author here, quick simple question if you folks don't mind.
I read something earlier today that questioned why stories have such long, boring intros, and it made me consider skipping the intro of act 1 and the first door, and going straight into act 2 from the first page, and simply revealing what happened in act 1 through dialogue or other means.
Are there any good examples of this format that anyone knows of? Is this viable at all?
Thank you for your time
Other urls found in this thread:
en.wikipedia.org
twitter.com
just write an epilogue that recaps the whole thing.
Thanks for your input, I'll keep it in mind
I'd love to hear from lots of people about this if possible
Thanks
The author chose to have one, that's the only reason.
You'll find that your "dialogue" will end up just being a heavy two handed conversation aka info dump between two characters at some point though.
I feel that you speak the truth, but I still didn't want to dismiss the idea outright without at least giving it some thought
An idea I had some time ago was adding extraneous little bits of text before each chapter that flesh out the world in some way that doesn't directly have anything to do with the plot, but can detail something that may be mentioned.
For example, one idea I had was like an advertisement for one of the character's weapons. Kind of like if you were watching a commercial and they were selling it to you, but it was mostly humor and went over all of the features of it, so that when the character used it later, it wouldn't seem like Batman's utility belt (in that it seemingly had infinite functions that all so happened to perfectly fit the situation, but more that the character is using it in a way that capitalizes on its functions)
One idea I had was sort of "news" bulletins or reports of things that happen in the world, or even email messages between characters. With a combination of reports from law enforcement agencies, email conversations, and news bulletins presented in this way, I was thinking it could be possible to tell act 1 without simply stating it, and possibly even give some alternative version of events that conflict with each other
I'm kind of just making this up as I go at this point but...I do know what you mean by making info dumps. Like when characters talk about something they really should have no need to talk about (EXPOSITION EXPOSITION!)
i drop a book if it doesn't get to the point fast.
i want to get sucked into the story and not be bored with unnecessary details.
no, it doesn't help me dive into it deeper. it's just a hindrance to the unfolding plot.
i think the best thing you can do to your texts is cut things out that aren't directly necessary for the story.
maybe post an excerpt so people can decide what would benefit your case more?
I'm really wary of posting any of it online because a lot of the publishers I've spoken too say it counts as self-publishing and that they won't even consider it then. I also hate just yapping about my writing because it makes me feel like I'm wasting people's time unnecessarily.
The fastest version that I can explain is something like this:
act1: Protagonist is established, protagonist's homeworld is established, protagonist is arrested and via a jailbreak leaves their homeworld
act2: Protagonist gets their own spaceship and makes a deal with Big Corporation to settle a series of tasks, and in turn Big Corporation will settle their arrest warrant and prosecution on their homeworld, which will allow them to return home. The rest of act2 is just the protag going through various "episodes" of each task, 4 in total make up act 2.
The problem that I feel exists is that the protagonist's homeworld is kind of pointless to present, as the protagonist leaves and doesn't return to it save for 1 episode of act2, and thus what's the point of detailing it so much? However the plot details of act1 ARE very important, and I feel that they at some point MUST be conveyed to the reader.
So if I leave the structure as it is, it wastes the reader's time. If I remove act1 and start in act2, it solves the problem of wasting the reader's time, but there are a lot of key details that the reader will have to gain through other means.
By removing act1 as well, it will likely remove the sense of loss the reader may have at the beginning of act2 if act1 is presented fully first. However I am not dumb enough to think that even this is as important as not boring the reader early on, and I know that having the craziness of act2 at the start of the book weighs against that sense of loss quite easily.
I also have a short story with this same character in it that relates to their past, however its basically completely irrelevant to the plot, but if I used it as a prologue it would start the book out with a lot of action in an attempt to buy some patience from the reader in act1 until act2 begins in full, but it would be a pretty steep thing I think to ask a reader, especially because such a prologue would be irrelevant to the overall plot, and although entertaining would be just as much of a waste of time as act1, which might even make the "wasting time" problem even worse than it would be with just act1 left where it is
i might be biased since i don't like overly elaborated worlds and such.
what i would do is this:
throw the reader right into it. dont explain shit. let him observe and figure stuff out on his own.
in what perspective will you write?
think about it this way: if you'd write fiction, settles in our usual world,
would you first etablish the whole infrastructure/political system and history of the city they life in? probaby not. sure it's a bit different in a world we all know and you can build upon common sense and knowledge.
but what about you invent some kind of protagonist that is also new to this world (got brought back with the main character or what not, might be a kid, so you're force to keep the explanations light and easily digested) and then HE/SHE can ask all the questions and get explanations about how the world there works?
don't make it too obvious, just sprinkle in 3 questions per chapter or so. and keep the answers short and clean!
You know I like your point, I actually recently had a sort of plot-element idea that I really reaally reaaaaaaaaaaaally liked and lusted after so hard to put into something, but came up empty and saved it for later
I absolutely fucking loooooooooooooooooove The Count of Monte Cristo, absolutely makes me rock hard everytime I see it on my shelf, I've given away so many damn copies of that sexy as hell Barnes and Noble leatherbound classic version (golf leafed and everything, its so sexy I can't believe it exists, sometimes I wake up at night and look at the shelf to make sure its real)
Ahem, anyway....I love the idea of a character going into some kind of longterm prison that changes them. When they come out, they are like a stranger in a strange land. Someone who just doesn't belong somewhat, but when people who know who they are see them, they shit their pants, "Oh my god, you are still alive?! This can't be! You're dead!"
There'd have to be some major rewrites to those around the protagonist, and I'd have to decide just how long of an imprisonment, and I'd have to explain how to keep the character from aging those years, and other minor details
But again, this would still make things difficult, as the information about how they got into their situation would still not be transferred.
If we put it into terms of the Count of Monte Cristo...
My problem is everything before Dantes goes to Chateau D'Iif needs to be explained without it occuring in act1, because in order to get the reader into the speed of the real plot faster, they need to skip to him as he makes his escape in act2, and what exactly happened in act1 needs to be presented some other way
But doing it this way removes the sympathy and less we'd feel for Dantes when he sees the people he used to know, and how much it hurts him to see his fiance' and his former best friend
i like the idea of the imprisonment. but why would they have to not age? how would people know them if they got imprisoned generations before?
why don't you make one of the prots have a kid, just their normal biological kid? kids need to get the world explained, even when they grow up in it...
also, if something adds to the plot and character development (like waking sympathy), then it's not unnecessary bagage but essential to the book and should be kept. just strip it down to it's core. give as much knfos as necessary but leave the rest to the readers imagination.
Its absolutely pivotal for the theme of the plot of part2 that the protagonist is around 25-26 in act2, I can't go into explaining it because its a spaghetti mess, but its one of those things that I have to work around
Its a science fiction story and there's a lot of forms of life-extension that are used, which can explain how they'd live long enough to see the protagonist emerge from oblivion
I'm really sorry, it is kind of a strange setting, and all humans are sterilized, so no kids. The only way to get one is to basically buy one from the government(s), and the only offer certain DNA Genome-types (humans reproduce completely through cloning and alter themselves with cosmetic surgery later if they want to look more unique), she meets other characters later that I believe could be used to help explain the parts of the world that have changed since she was imprisoned however
The protag's sibling, best friend, and SO from before all survive, for some reason the number 50 years just seems to keep yelling at me
Honestly this is a great conversation, I had a thought just a minute ago that gave me goosebumps because I liked it so much, I'm writing down a bunch of notes!
My real challenge is adding the loss, but I had another theme pop into my head:
Warmongering as a theme. If I push back the date that the protagonist was imprisoned, it would overlap with a war. The protag's homeworld was infamous for being very warlike (like Sparta in space), and when she emerges into a world in peacetime, and makes war on the antagonists, it could be argued by the opposition that the protag just "doesn't know how to live in a world without war" and are accused of "making a war so that you know how to live"
And it could be up to the reader to decide if this is true?
But it leads back to loss. I want the protag to experience a powerful and damning loss before imprisonment, and they basically brood within the rage and hatred of that loss for the entirety of their detainment...maybe some kind of flashback of some kind?
Perhaps an enemy that uses some kind of technology to render the protag to relive their memories, and thus use the trauma to weaken them enough to kill them?
Something else just occured to me...instead of imprisonment, I'm feeling that if the protagonist could present enough of a threat to the antagonist, the antagonist should really have gone all out to kill them, not imprison them. So instead of imprisonment, some other kind of extreme survival situation, where they SHOULD be dead, but survive by indomitable will and perserverence
i don't think you need a lot of text to tell your reader the age of your prot... just wave in. that's really easy
well, no kids then. what if the prot (who went out of his world and came back...) brings one from a different world?
what if your prot fled his world after/during the war? what if he/she got exiled for political reasons and her/his fsmily died in the war in the meantime and there was nothing the prot could do to save them because he was denied access to his world? what if he got forgotten during the buildup after war and tried to find a way back during all those years?
maybe he didn't age because thise beings don't age outside of their world?
then, when he gets back, he is trying to find revenge for his family and causes a lot of turmoil in the otherwise now peaceful world?
i don't think you'd need anenemy to remind them of their loss. it would be their driving force behind all their action.
maybe they just get killed anyways, without the need of weakening them. maybe they suddenly age rapidly when getting back into their world
Wow
These posts are long.
These are great ideas, this thread has been more helpful and important than I could have ever imagined while making it, so many new ideas came and from this last post I've figured out exactly what I need to do, as well as some extensive rewrites that need to take place!
I need to write down my new plot points, what I'll do is write a new plot thread and only keep what still works, but so much just came out of this:
I actually got so excited I bit my lip too hard and now its bleeding hahaha! Thanks so much user! I appreciate this greatly! I'm so pumped, I'm going to get started right away!
basically, i'm all for using the most logical and simplest ways so you can avoid complicated explanations
for example, if you had an enemy force the prot to relive his losses, you'd have to explain how he did that and why and why it weakened the prot, and so on. if you simply let him cause turmoil and get to know the new world, and then let him die of rapid aging, that's simple, straight to the point and won't clutter up the book. also, i like non-happy endings. if he dies without having had his revenge (what he fought for all those years...), it will get readers to react emotionally to it
>Are there any good examples of this format that anyone knows of? Is this viable at all?
Final Fantasy VII
Yes it's not a book, but from the vibes I'm getting from this thread, it feels like you guys are more trying to write a video game/anime in written format than an actual novel (but maybe all YA novels are like that, I don't know, I don't read them)
Also, this could help you: en.wikipedia.org
i'm really glad i could help!
i hope you find good ways to rewrite and be happy with the result.
godspeed user
if your stuck and need some brainstorming, just post and i'll give you my input. maybe it'll help again
I feel like there's good discussion here, but I don't have the attention span right now.
it's alright
Yeah, same here.
If I want to write non-fiction philosophy/politics what do I need other than good ideas and fluency? I feel like just jumping in and writing as much as possible but I'm not sure what specific skills I'm trying to hone.
Insight, self-knowledge, an ability to add value to people's lives with your words. Go to school.
Thanks senpai
Alrighty, sorry I had to fix my lip because I got too excited I bit it too hard and it started bleeding!
I'm not sure how the ending will actually turn out, due to there being 2 possible endings and I'm pretty sure I'll know which one when it comes up
Not sure where you got that idea, just because I have an appreciation for .hack// doesn't mean I'm trying to write an anime/video game. I really like Gibson and feel that Project .hack// was criminally underrated, and it taps into my love of Der Ring des Nibelungen as well, and some other transcendentalist literature as well that I read in highschool
I agree with you on simplicity, but I'm personally not really a fan of unhappy endings, although I do write them often if I feel its deserved or earned. Especially when a character is very violent, like why should someone who kills a lot not deserve death themselves? He who lives by the sword dies by it
I'm systematically going through and trying to figure out the new plot elements, I ended up coming up with something I believe is very good but also simple enough to understand that really makes the antagonist far, far, far better than he was before, and some details about the protagonist that makes them much more interesting without resorting to melodrama or adding plot devices
I'm sorry they are so long winded D: it wasn't my intention going in.
You were super helpful! I've got some other specific plot threads which I'd love to give a try at tying up to see if we can bounce something around until I get a eureka moment!
The first thread would be the timeline, as it informs everything else. Originally it started at year 0, with a very important war happening 50 years before. My intention now is to move the protagonist back 50 years to participate in the war on their colony, however there are 2 main problems with this:
1) Aging, like we said before. I want the protagonist to remain in a youthful state at this point, they must be for the later parts to thematically fit. I believe in putting the protagonist in a terrible, terrible situation, one where its astounding that they survive, but they have to do so through repulsive means. I'm thinking something universally disgusting, which would be something like cannibalism. Maybe they aren't the only ones who survive in the place they are in, and so the survivors have to kill each other to survive? Since life extension is a technology in the universe, maybe some kind of fueled implant that slows aging? Maybe its standard issue, all the protag has to do is forcefully remove it and claim the contents for themselves?
2) Culture. The culture that exists pre- and post- war are wildly different, with the pre-war being akin to a communist-styled dark age and the post-war being like the Italian Renaissance. The protag is meant to interact with the rest of humanity in a way that makes them a "Renaissance man"
i think undeserved unhappy endings make a story much more authentic. they also catch the reader off guard since we always expect ficional stories to tie together to a happy ending in the last few pages. if i'd write a book, my intention would be to keep the reader engaged till the last word.
i also think it tugs on their heartstrings a lot more since everybody has a personal relation to "life is unfair". which it is. so making it fair by killing the bad guys and rescuing the good ones, you just make the whole story "meh" and clichée
i like the idea about canibalism. it happens when in extreme situations but fucks the people up that had to do it and also shocks people that weren't there
with the timeline, i'd just accompany your main prot trough the times. nothing more, nothing less. no long winded history lectures or social observations. think of it like a teen growing up. you probably have picked up a thing or two about politics and history, but inherently, have no clue. you only slowly extract the bigger picture by following current events and informing yourself on stuff you find accutely relevant. i'd let thh prot do the same and slowly reveal more complex infos on the world before him and the structure of the world he lives in. he gains insight and understanding at the same pace as the reader.
i wouldn't make the aging thing a big issue. they ate genetically modified. they could probably be immortal. or atleast get extremely old. maybe they have a whole different way of counting age or so, which would leave your prot aged 26, even after being away long enough for the whole social constructs to have changed completely.
i don't reslly see what's the problem with the different cultures. war changes culture to a huge extend. that's just how it goes. new values, new politic systems, lack of financial security since all goes knto rebuilding,...
where do you see the difficulty here?
I understand having an unhappy ending, especially when it is abrupt can leave someone thinking about it for a very long time afterwards. I don't really want to commit to anything now however, as I have other outlines I've worked on for a while, and actually have another piece that utilizes this protag's presence for some weird simulacrum business, so we'll see how that goes.
I think that should work fine for now for the aging thing unless I can come up with something better. What I'm thinking is that during the battle, the protag gets carried off literally on top of a space ship and somehow survives to get inside, but the entire ship collides with a station, which is a sort of off-world prison, and both the station and the cruiser crashland on some freezing inhospitable moon, where they stay in the wreckage for the most part and underground and that's where they have to survive, something where they have a very low change of surviving and with some truly shocking imagery (like holding onto a giant space ship literally while it ascends into space)
I think instead what will happen is that each of the prisoners has some kind of tag or powered device on them that can be used to power some kind of suspended animation capsule, but it only lasts a certain amount of time, and because of the low power it can't run all of the systems so sometimes the protagonist will wake up and actually feel freezing but be unable to move, and has to literally sit that way for years at a time, falling in and out of icy sleep, unable to do anything until the capsule opens, demanding more power, and they have to wander off to kill someone to get another battery, in a horrible freezing disoriented state
The culture one presents difficulty for me because people are defined by the cultures they come from. If the protag comes from a culture that was in a dark age, it will be reflected in their own attitudes towards people and places. The vision I always saw for this character was again, a "Renaissance man" type of person. They come from a place that values art, enlightenment, and fashion. Its pretty integral to the themes of the plot in many areas, especially considering the "dark age" still exists in many of the places the protagonist will visit, and the difference in culture will create a "clash of worlds"
So I'll need a way to advance the "Renaissance" by 50 years, and in my original draft it was the end of the war that actually created that Renaissance, so there will have to be some other trigger.
Perhaps being a colony away from the human homeworld they just developed a different culture, and began that "Renaissance" period much earlier, but by ending the war the way they did (their homeworld with the Renaissance culture vs. the human homeworld in the Dark Age) they were able to be taken by an enemy who would not interfere with their culture or liberties, which not only allowed them to continue their Renaissance, but expand on it
maybe he was ahead of it's time all the time? maybe he was a "renaissance man" even before the war started? it always has some visionairs. maybe he never really fitted in with the "dark ages" anyway. and that makes the whole time on that icy moon even worse (which i think is an awesome idea!)
i'm off to run some errands now. but i'll check back later
Thanks, I've noted everything as we've talked and I'm going to digest it over the next few days, I really appreciate the help
I'm so sorry everyone for this thread flying off into textwall land, I'm going to get some sleep myself, hopefully my lip heals enough by work tomorrow that I can talk without cracking the wound back open
Thank you all very very much for the help and advice, this has been super helpful, far more than I ever imagined!
Later gators!
it's called a cold open and is very common
in literature the phrase more commonly used is "in medias res"
Mme. Merle subplot from Portrait of a Lady
Like the Illiad, you little anime shit?