Why does Veeky Forums relegate psychedelics to be in the same category as hippy new age nonsensical thinking?
The psychedelic experience, the experience of LSD, the experience of mushrooms, the experience of a DMT breakthrough, are "real". Please take note of how real is defined here. They are phenomenologically accessible. You can experience them. You can observe them. You can undergo them and form memories of them.
How are they still "fake" and something to be called nonsense simply because the observations do not correspond to something external in the physical world? The internal experience itself is an aspect of reality since it can be observed even if the observation does not map to anything external to the body - even if the observation of shifting colors for instance does not map to an actual shift in the frequency of light external to the body
It is "real" in every sense of the word. You cannot tell a person who has experienced it that their experience is not real. If it was not real then they could not have experienced it, they would not have memories of it
Let me repeat again, even if it is now becoming overly repetitive - this does not mean that what is observed during the experiences maps to something externally existing in reality.
A great example is people who report UFO abductions and mean it 100% sincerely and can pass a lie detector test. They had an experience. They saw something. They're not lying, they experienced something. Likely a psychotic breakdown and a delusion induced by mental illness. But they still experienced it nonetheless. The observational machinery of the mind manifested itself in that way and they remember it
Likewise the psychedelic experience is "real" as well even if there was no metaphorical UFO.
Is this not in itself interesting and a worthy part of reality to point a spotlight towards and try to observe it instead of laughing at it as if it's just hippy crystal chakra nonsense? It's as real as anything.
'We' don't doubt that they have experienced something. The problem comes when you make these wild leaps that it means anything beyond your experience, with no evidence to support it. >dude mushrooms came on an asteroid asnd by eating them you are turning your brain into an antenna that allows you to communicate with aliens and/or god >I know because it was real in my mind Do you see how claims like that don't belong on a science board?
Adrian Evans
>>dude mushrooms came on an asteroid asnd by eating them you are turning your brain into an antenna that allows you to communicate with aliens and/or god >>I know because it was real in my mind >Do you see how claims like that don't belong on a science board? Wait a minute
So I said that? I don't remember typing it, and reading my post again I can't seem to see any words that even suggest anything remotely like that
In fact the only words I see related to what you mentioned, is how I specifically pointed out that people often paint this entire topic into the corner of being a part of the fairytale nonsense like exactly what you wrote, and specifically said that it is indeed fairytale nonsense and not to be confused with what I'm discussing.
Lucas Russell
I didn't mean to imply you held those beliefs, I was just paraphrasing the brain dead druggy messiah, terrence mckenna. The point I'm trying to get across is that as far as I can tell people here don't have a problem with discussion of altered states, and don't lump it in with new age hippy nonsense as long as it doesn't stray into that territory. I recall seeing discussions about them on here before that were relatively measured and productive, for this board at least. I'm confused as to what your problem is desu Apologies for typing like a faggot.
Justin Gonzalez
You reference an insufficient sample size to infer a claim.
I think the difficulty for most is that if you accept psychedelics, then you need to accept religion (the trip without the drugs). In truth both of these things simply get you to understand the importance of 'ritual' (iteration/repetition).
Personally I'd pay fucking top dollar if there was a bunch of math professors who dropped acid and recorded their shit on YouTube for all. That'd be fucking amaze-balls.
James Williams
I feel like the increase in creativity on psychedelics is excellent. It causes schizophrenic loose associations. It lets in a lot of crappy delusional ideas in the moment, but it also lets you cast a much wider net on legitimately good ideas
Why there are not extensive ongoing clinical trials into this regarding its ability to enhance creativity and abstract reasoning I have no idea
It would be a great experiment to get a bunch of mathematicians into a room, have them all think about math and get their minds primed, then take a psychedelic
Then just let them rant and rave about every mathematical idea that enters their head - psychedelics often make you remember old stuff you thought of one time and then forgot - and have it all recorded. Then have other mathematicians from this group go over it and try to extract useful mathematical insights
I bet it would be a great exercise. There would be a lot of junk to filter out no doubt, but there may be diamond ideas in the rough
Jose Young
>brain dead druggy messiah, terrence mckenna Terence McKenna was a pseudo-intellectual in many areas, especially when it comes to mathematics and science in general. His attitude towards them is nauseating and it's ironic that he sometimes describes himself as a mathematician in a quite literal way, considering he knows nothing about it. And don't even get me started on retarded nonsense like Timewave Zero.
That being said, he has some absolutely excellent sociological observation and mind expanding ideas. He is a brilliant orator and most definitely a valuable contributor to the intellectual landscape of humanity. To call him a "brain dead druggy messiah" is dishonest. Like I said in my earlier post regarding a useful experiment to perform, there is a lot of crap that comes out of Terence's mouth that you have to filter out, but if you can ignore it he is very stimulating
Juan Foster
I agree whole-heartedly. However the problem the English language, and therefore science, has is that word you just used: Schizophrenia.
It isn't really a thing in non-western cultures because in their eyes it is simply a mind that operates on a different level. Not worse or better, just different.
Schizophrenia in western culture becomes a big problem (just like any other 'diagnosis') because that culture is told 'you need medical attention' and 'special care'. It removes you from being able to be communicated with (the No.1 cure for depression and anxiety) because it reinforces your believe that 'you' are alien to yourself and from the perspective of others.
Fuck, I'd take psychedelics with fucking math monkeys if I could find any that love number theory as much as I do.
Jason Rodriguez
To build on this English really is a 'I must dominate the other person in this social standing/conversation' style language because it is a language constructed from an island that has been invaded so often that they HAD to make their language so malleable.
It becoming imperial conqueror is really because no other language would be so rude as to presume that they knew better than others. Trade/Communication/Sharing culture is what China/Africa/Aboriginal Australians/Etc. do and did.
It is a psycho-linguistic adaptation that native English speakers don't quite understand until they try to learn a different language. It is also why English is considered the hardest language in the world to master for non-native's because it is a complete departure from 'ritual/cultural' linguistic norms.
Elijah Nelson
It is also why the 'best' thing for an English speaker to learn is Mathematics/Logic/Philosophy because they are the 'sciences' that transform your neural understanding of communication.
Maths is the 'prime' language of the universe, but 'we' make it so stupidly hard to understand and obfuscate it because 'muh ego'.
Basically, English makes us shoot ourselves in the foot, and then those like Trump (opportunistic narcissists) see that most native speakers aren't aware of this and then can easily manipulate/con/swindle them.
It is why Kanye West had his breakdown post-trump and declared that he could just as easily win the presidency. He basically finally 'pierced through the veil'. Wish I could word that better but English culture has done an amazing job of infantalizing perfectly acceptable evidence/information/reality.
Nolan Baker
[Citation needed]
Eli Flores
Learn another language : Left as an exercise for the reader
Owen Bailey
I don't doubt for a moment that different languages and syntactic structures, maybe even different grammatical conventions like having gendered nouns and things such as this, tint your worldview in an inescapable way
It is also quite clear that mathematics and science are indeed the universal language.
Here's a cool thing that I always find fascinating, but please note that I am not "religious", "spiritual", or any of these things. I may be wrong here, but in The Bible, the story of the Tower of Babel is essentially that a universal language was discovered and this allowed the Babylonians to create something so reaching to the heavens. Something so monstrous and blasphemous that God himself could not stand it and condemned them all to speak a different language as punishment, and to stop them in their tracks from continuing
Look at this as a metaphor for mathematics and science and the progress they allow us, and this could very well apply to the atomic bomb or some future technology as well which equally would lead us towards our own destruction through the shared "universal language"
This is also referenced in general as a universal limiter on species called "the great filter" which is basically that all sufficiently advanced species eventually discover a truth of the universe that is so hard to handle in a game-theoretical sense that all species end up destroying themselves, and this is presented as an explanation for the Fermi Paradox
Pretty interesting
Joseph Nelson
*shrug* death is the ultimate illusion. But good luck trying to prove 'that' to anyone I guess.
Asher Cruz
>a lie detector test disproven a long time ago to not be of any value, only americans ever entertained it
Noah Martinez
Hallucinations aren't real. You can experience something that isn't real. You can truly believe in things that aren't real.
Imagining a rat in your mind while high on mushrooms doesn't mean you experienced a rat in your house.
Having some epiphony on lsd where everything is connected and everything is everything isn't real.
The benefit of psychedelics have very little to do with the hallucinations and sensations of the drugs. Its the remapping of the brain and possibly experiencing a lack of superego. That's all the therapeutic benefits are. The memories of an altered state aren't real and the hallucinations are not sufficiently repeatable from person to person.
Thomas Miller
>disproven a long time ago to not be of any value, only americans ever entertained it Completely beside the point
>Hallucinations aren't real. You can experience something that isn't real. You can truly believe in things that aren't real. >Imagining a rat in your mind while high on mushrooms doesn't mean you experienced a rat in your house. Pretty sure I literally said this exact same thing
Do brainlets even read threads before posting?
Elijah Thompson
>You can experience something that isn't real Also you're wrong here. The experience itself was real, the fact that what you experienced can be experienced is true.
Owen Gomez
What the fuck are you even talking about mate. I'm sure this makes sense to you, but to everyone else it reads like a bad parody of anthropology.
Juan Lewis
Fuck I didn't realize Jaden Smith browsed Veeky Forums
Lucas Torres
Vacuum tube tvs are real The television show that is being broadcast is real Magnets are real
If you touch the tv screen with a magnet you distort the image. But the distortion is not some hidden reality, it is extra noise and loss of information.
Same with drugs, as far as I can tell
Cooper Stewart
OK so taking LSD is like a mental illness.
Hudson Peterson
>That being said, he has some absolutely excellent sociological observation and mind expanding ideas. He is a brilliant orator and most definitely a valuable contributor to the intellectual landscape of humanity. Confirmed for braindead druggy.
Joshua Jones
Congratulations, you've redefined "real" to be meaningless, proved something that wasn't real under the original definition of real is now "real" under your new definition, and demanded the same significance as the original definition.
If we grant your definition, schizophrenics are experiencing their own kind of reality, doesn't make the NASA rape dragons coming after them any more real in the sense that actually matters as before.
This is the same method of thinking that led to people redefining gender as a magic spectrum modified by things like thinking sports are cool and demanding the same significance as sex's XX and XY for their new ambifluid demigirl categorization.
Justin Turner
I agree that McKenna isn't 100% worthless, he's quite fun to listen to and he brought up some valid points, in particular I completely agree with his idea that experimenting freely with one's consciousness, chemically or otherwise, should be a fundamental human right. I wouldn't call him brilliant though, he was obviously permafried to some extent and I fail to see much value in his work beyond entertainment. For me, his promotion as an "intellectual" by some circles does more harm than good for the acceptance of psychonautics in Western societies, by feeding the bias of many people who see the average psychonaut as a delusional hippie.
Charles Lee
I think the DMT breakthrough is the participant literally looking at the inner workings of their own mind. I think its fertile ground for research.
Jonathan Young
>Psychedelics >Fracturing your brain with chemicals >Not being a natural creative genious
Fucking hippies. We should have slain you all with a Woodstock nuclear annihilation.
Julian Smith
Reminder, the personal computer revolution is the direct result of Fucking hippies.
Bentley Russell
Alexander Shulgin used psychedelics quite heavily, and he was a talented chemist. What did you achieve as a "natural creative genious"?
Hudson Campbell
You both very clearly have no experience with psychedelics
Blake Ward
>ITT druggies trying to justify their shit because it was real in their minds
BTW, Steve Jerbs does not represent computer science. He didn't even do anything technical.
Logan Gray
See Homebrew Computer Club - Stanford Nitwit.
Ian Murphy
I personally don't like Apple products and I'm certainly not a Steve Jobs fanboy, but designing and producing and innovative computer in a 70's garage sounds pretty technical to me.
Jayden Carter
>BEING A MEME LE EPIC MAY MAY XDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Daniel Johnson
Care to elaborate? Is this a urban legend or something?
Jason Sullivan
Don't meet your heroes kid... They only serve to disappoint you
Asher Nguyen
Well, it's a shame that you're obviously here to troll because I'm genuinely interested and I don't know much about this period, but this is Veeky Forums after all.
Jayden Nelson
>Here's a cool thing that I always find fascinating, but please note that I am not "religious", "spiritual", or any of these things. I may be wrong here, but in The Bible, the story of the Tower of Babel is essentially that a universal language was discovered and this allowed the Babylonians to create something so reaching to the heavens. Something so monstrous and blasphemous that God himself could not stand it and condemned them all to speak a different language as punishment, and to stop them in their tracks from continuing >Look at this as a metaphor for mathematics and science and the progress they allow us, and this could very well apply to the atomic bomb or some future technology as well which equally would lead us towards our own destruction through the shared "universal language"
neat idea, user
Veeky Forums remains the most worthwhile board to visit for me
I agree. I just wish 'elitism' would give itself a rest or at least adopt the /b/ approach of self-deprecation = enlightenment (I am a trap!)
Trouble is a lot of the interesting stuff people throw into the /x/ pile and there is a real overlap between Science and this sort of conversation that Veeky Forums does not yet serve.
Ryan Rogers
Might be more accurate to say 'everything gives me an erection'. If Mathematicians/Scientists/Intellectuals would adopt this approach a lot would get done.
Daniel Stewart
This guy might interest you.
Hunter Ortiz
You are aware that our brain actively filters OUT sense information, distortion and fragmentation occur when you aren't on drugs.
Its called conditioning. What you see on psyches is the veil being lifted. Division is simply a tool of the physical. Reality divides the brain and the brain divides reality. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_at_Large
Carter Morris
retard
Cameron Hughes
This a million times Someone call up numberphile
Colton Wright
>If we grant your definition, schizophrenics are experiencing their own kind of reality, doesn't make the NASA rape dragons coming after them any more real in the sense that actually matters as before. Did you read the thread?
Clearly you did not, I specifically brought up this exact same point for delusional UFO encounter people.
Carson Jackson
Bad Linguistics, the post.
Joshua Mitchell
'Left as an exercise for the reader, the counter-example'.
Or, the exception that proves the rule.
Jaxon Stewart
Lol trip user guy back here again
Sometimes I wonder whether I've had conversations with the same person hundreds of time on various boards and never known it and that Veeky Forums's population may be smaller than it seems.
Justin Cox
Why can't it simply be that many people can hold the same opinion/arguments, despite a difference in their personal circumstances?
Dylan Edwards
You're full of shit, mate. English is by no means considered the "hardest" language for a non-native speaker to master, for one. Second, this "I must dominate the other person in this social standing/conversation" style thing is an interesting idea, but it is an idea you've pulled out your own ass, so don't go telling me to read up on it. I've done plenty of my own research about the lingusitic history of the English language. >It becoming imperial conqueror is really because no other language would be so rude as to presume that they knew better than others. >it >language What's "it"? The language? The Saxon tribe? The English nation? The British Empire? Your thinking is muddled. >Trade/Communication/Sharing culture is what China/Africa/Aboriginal Australians/Etc. do and did. You're saying the English didn't trade, or communicate, or share? >It is a psycho-linguistic adaptation that native English speakers don't quite understand until they try to learn a different language. That's pretty vague. Explain.
Jacob Fisher
Well, the words we are using and the dictionary we agree on as being 'English'. The island was subject to invader after invader that the local population had to allow so many 'other words' for them to just survive.
The English conquered first.
This is probably better explained as the Church of England versus the Vatican.
Easton Jenkins
Quoting dictionary definitions is the last refuge of a brainlet. Moving on, you imply that there were town hall meetings where people voted on what words to keep around, as if that's how language works.
Finally, what on earth does this have to do with the Church? If this is better explained that way, then go forth and explain it.
Because they couldn't the island collectively was subjugated and came to understand 'let us just be flexible'. Until they became so flexible they could suck their own dick I guess.
I simply meant the argument that England had with the Catholic church resulted in the Church of England, but that was simply a king trying to establish an anglo-centric ritual/religion/concept/culture. The rest of it was always the language of whatever court was most in power (italian/french/whatever).
English never was able to establish the concept of 'Identity' as strongly as others because of all the invaders. Even the local welsh/pagan/gaelic are not considered English.
Gabriel Reed
The Anglosphere has never had the equivalent of such a particular institution, as you may be aware, but are you aware that despite the AF's efforts, there is quite a difference between upper-register français and everyday street French? Being educated in the former will not prepare you for speaking fluently in the latter, you know, and no community discussion boards were involved in the shaping of the dialect.
The way you write about language change and the forces of culture demonstrate that you cannot grasp that things change over time naturally as the result of the complex interaction of free actors and interrelated systems; you are stuck ascribing all historical change to a small group of actors acting.
Going back to my original challenge to your assertion, the Early Modern English of Henry VIII's time was already quite close to ours by the time he split from the Catholic Church...and you still lack evidence or a real argument for your interesting hypothesis, which would get laughed out of Veeky Forums.
Christopher Brown
Before the academy though they had centuries of just being French and their rituals/identity being formed by their own villages. Mainland continents/landmasses get over their 'war' phase quicker than islands and new countries (See: USA)
The
Levi Jenkins
robert anton wilson was a much more intelligent spokesman for this than mckenna ever was.
Brandon Morgan
>Before the academy though they had centuries of just being French and their rituals/identity being formed by their own villages Wrong. I'd love to throw you into a time machine to the Picard or Walloon countryside three hundred years ago and have you give them this spiel.
Luis Kelly
But then they aren't French, they are Basque or pineapple-butthole. Those were times of greater turn-over, which the English language is still experiencing.
Remember this is thousands of years of culture versus England's rise to power and requirement to be the lingua franca.
ONly at this point in time are we allowed to use the collector identity, but the same rule applies at any other point in time when analysis is concerned.
Ryan Sanchez
>Picard >Basque Please explain the "pineapple-butthole" comment.
Daniel Turner
pineapple-butthole = hitler in hell = metaphor = request for explanation as the absurdity demands further scrutiny before original topic can be continued = language exchange.
Ryder Morris
Oh, Little Nicky with Adam Sandler.
Carson Gomez
W O R D S A L A D
Connor Rodriguez
So fucking what? People hallucinate on drugs. In other news, the pope is catholic and bears STILL shit in the woods
Aaron Bailey
>amaze-balls What did the faggot mean by this?
Dominic Cruz
I meant I want mathematicians to publicize their psychadelic get-together's when they commune with the great 0
Hunter Phillips
O R G A S M O
Christopher Diaz
hey lonely undergrad trippin here could use a friend
Kevin Rodriguez
VIC?
Jackson Gomez
Hey user I'm heading to bed but there's no reason to be lonely
I'm lonely and I have nobody but we are one and the same. Most people are probably more alike than we realize. If we could see into each other's minds it would be a momentous event in history and it would cause all sorts of spiritual realizations on our place in the universe and our moral obligations to our fellow man
I'll stop rambling - but have a nice trip user. Man I'm jealous and wish I was tripping right now, but I've unfortunately succumbed to becoming a boring stuffy professional who needs to be responsible and not trip anymore
Enjoy user, enjoy undergrad too. You have no idea how great an opportunity it is. Read all you can, study all you can, and don't get side tracked by girls.
Enjoy your trip user!
Lucas Bennett
*why are you talking like I'm on drugs? I am drugs. How can I be on top of myself?
>thread about psychedelic drugs morphs into a pseudointellectual discussion about linguistics What did Veeky Forums mean by this?
Cameron Barnes
>caveman sit round fire >only know club and smash >animal want kill bigger than club >me no have language, cannot organize Alpha-Delta-Bravo tactics formation Zeta with friendly neighbors >no idea word friend >no other caveman with squishy hole to poke my stick in or tell to forage for me >forced to forage solo like beta-berry-picker >eat funny mushroom >PROCESS >"Why, hello my good Sir. It is a pleasure to make your acquaintance."
