Well, is he right Veeky Forums? Should prisons be abolished?

the idea that there are just "certain criminals" who "can't be rehabilitated" is not actually supported by rigorous evidence

At the end tolstoy lists 5 commandments and claims if everyone followed them assiduously (which he said was actually quite feasible) then we could all achieve some sort of utopia. Diligence on behalf of the many would inspire diligence on behalf of the few who have a tendency to deviate.

What are they?

Is the opposite true? There's many cases of multiple felony offenders eventually culminating in murder

Its the price we'll have to pay to cleanse this Earth of scum

What the fuck is the point of sterilization? Nobody wants to be a parents anymore regardless of if their junk can shoot live rounds or blanks.

Prisoners who commit multiple felonies or one severe felony should be executed. There's no point in "life without parole" its a fucking waste of time to pump taxpayer dollars into a person who has no social or personal value left to anyone at the choice of the state. Put him out of his misery.

The maximum prison sentence should be around 15 years. That's enough time to keep someone locked away, receiving counseling, therapy, whatever to reshape them.

1. man must not kill, and must reconcile with his brother before offering his gift to God (prayer)

2. Man must refrain from committing adultery, and if he has found a woman must remain faithful to her unto death

3. we must not seal a promise with an oath

4. Man must not demand an eye for an eye but offer a cheek. Must forgive injuries and bear them with humility

5. Man must not merely not hate our enemies, but must love, help and serve them

Have you read through your the law code of your country?

In the US, things like obscenity, terroristic threats (anything that might sound violent or threatening at all), slander and libel, and many other things are grounds for felony sentencing. Someone will take advantage of your law, operating through "a law for everyone" principal, and go to town on whatever demographic is to be cleansed.

You aren't innocent. With access to all of your electronics and other records that can undoubtedly nail you on something.

What a bunch of idealist horse shit.

BTW, these probably become less feasible with every passing generation, unfortunately. Everyone seems to be running at full speed away from stoicism towards fiery passion.

Well it is Tolstoy we are talking about here. He wasn't exactly a nihilist.

bump

>abolished
No. They should be ignored, as in, treated as the mere buildings that they are. A prison is nothing to those who live outside its walls; only those who live within have a legitimate gripe against it.

If it "rehabilitates," it cannot be a "penitentiary." Forced penitence of any kind does nothing except further the separation of a man from his dignity. You should not be contrite because of the act itself (the "crime"): only repent that you thought it worth committing.

>The maximum prison sentence should be around 15 years

Take a look at the Norwegian justice system. They have a pretty similar approach to sentencing, which doesn't seem to have done anything to raise crime rates.

I remember that. When that Norwegian terrorist shot up all those kids there was a news piece on how good the conditions were in the prison and my dad was losing his shit.

Now if only people held this close to their hearts and kept it engraved on their wrists. But it would only work if the majority did, and we all know how liquid philosophy is. Give it some heat and it evaporates away.

America's prison system is a mess. I don't understand how for profit prisons can be a thing. I don't understand why a loud portion of society is, can you believe it, against spending a dime to educate prisoners. They don't deserve it, they say. They think in terms of punishment first and foremost without a thought for reform. I could see two levels of prison. First a reformation facility, and then another for the larger crimes and repeat offenders. I could go on into the details but I'm sure anyone reading this had already grasped the idea or rejected it.

>A prison is nothing to those who live outside its walls

Those who care about the human rights of those imprisoned would disagree. A prison is only nothing if one has no ties to it. If a friend or family member is serving time, it becomes personal. If someone is at risk of serving time themselves, it becomes personal. The defining mark of morality in any society is how it treats its lowest members. Abuses, neglect, and torture in prison are something that breeds monsters and mentally damages most of the youth that end up inside for minor offenses.

Americans are trying to trash the Norwegian system as if Norway was supposed to erode its ethical values just because that one bastard went gung-ho with a rifle. Its absurd. Norway's system works. Why corrupt that for petty revenge?

Yeah i know, I'm actually a Canadian but i find i ally myself with the Norway method, despite how frustrating it is to see that nutcase in a nice cell with a shower and flat screen. Their approach seems to be a success this far.

Anger is a powerful emotion. As is superiority. Most people consider themselves superior to criminals simply because they haven't yet been locked up, and as such are perfectly alright with doing horrific things to convicts simply because they can.

Recently my state (Colorado) had a ballot initiative that would have banned forced labor for prison convicts.

Virtually everyone was talking about it, getting some idea that maybe it wasn't okay to make people work against their will.

But still, in the end the measure was defeated by just a few percentage points. This in a purple state that's on the way to being safe blue. Convicts simply aren't regarded as human beings a lot of the time.

>Those who care about the human rights of those imprisoned would disagree.
There are no general "rights."
>A prison is only nothing if one has no ties to it.
Here we agree.
>If a friend or family member is serving time, it becomes personal. If someone is at risk of serving time themselves, it becomes personal.
I also agree with this. But to be threatened with imprisonment or to have a loved one thus threatened means that one has ties to the prison. One takes a selfish interest in avoiding or helping another to avoid a prison sentence. And if oneself or someone loved is unfortunately thrown into the dungeon, thoughtful intercourse turns upon the most practical means of escape.
>The defining mark of morality in any society is how it treats its lowest members
There is no general "morality."
>Abuses, neglect, and torture in prison are something that breeds monsters and mentally damages most of the youth that end up inside for minor offenses.
I agree with you again. But I can do nothing for every youth, nor can all of our power brought to bear against the organizing mechanism of prisons (the State) amount to anything, because the State is nothing: it is only an idea. The "destruction of prisons" comes not in the form of their physical destruction, or reformation into penitentiaries of psychology, but through their annihilation: one day they will all be left to rot like Alcatraz.

>as crime hasn't diminished whatsoever from centuries of this method.

this is demonstrably false.

Convicts are legal slaves in the US. The Constitution has provisions for putting prisoners to work by force. Even if that measure had passed, it would likely be struck down in the courts.

Another reason Burg(h)erland is the most degenerate "world power."

You know what is especially fucked in your state as well as other states that have legalized weed?

Even when they legalized recreational marijuana, the state did not release individuals convicted and imprisoned on drug charges from marijuana.

Execution costs more taxpayer dollars than just letting them live. You have to drag out the legal process to make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN you aren't executing an innocent person. Would you rather pay for that or for them to have a shitty cell and cheap food for a while?

low crime rate in Norway has a lot more to do with being a homogenous, wealthy Petrostate with a low population and low income inequality than anything to do with their criminal justice system. Things will change if they take in too many immigrants

>crime rate has diminished in correlation to the use of harsh punishment techniques, therefore harsh punishment techniques cause crime rate to diminish

lel, next you'll be saying fossil fuel emissions cause climate change

Do you watch Ben Shapiro by chance?

Tell me about it.

The funny thing is, I really don't like it when people use marijuana. Most of the folks I know tend to overuse it and either get listless or paranoid. But that's still miles better than them getting arrested and having their lives ruined and society's tax dollars wasted.

I mean, fuck, it's COMMON SENSE! How do these stupid conservative hicks in the heartland not understand the basic principle of leaving people alone to live their own lives? Isn't that what their entire ideology is based on?

>ideology

The nail was hit on its head when the idea of superiority was brought up. Some people wish to impose their way of life on others behind a screen of supporting individual rights (when it follows muh values). It's this strange appeal that the Republican party has for some people. It's more complex than what I'm saying, but a portion of the draw is "muh freedoms" mixed with an exclusivity of those freedoms. A long list of people who don't deserve those same "freedoms" that red blooded Americans (no Muslims gays blacks Mexicans etc allowed) obviously deserve. Try explaining this contradiction in ideology to someone at a Republican rally though. It's a fantastic way to net yourself an aneurysm that'll set you free from it all.

Is Tolstoy the GOAT? Or just an airy idealist old softy?

bump

No. You still need to punish the crimes that people commit and Jail is suitable for that. But there should also be a bigger focus on reforming inmates too so they just don't go back to prison again. The problem is mostly shitty, for profit prisons that operate on a revolving door basis.

I think whippings, fines, and forced amputations could be done too.

>>Obviously not, prison and punishment exist to deter future criminals.
and yet there are still criminals.

he is right, and there are a lot of good reasons for doing so.

76.6% of people who are incarcerated are arrested again within 5 years of their release.[1] the rate of recidivism only goes up with time. this means whatever effect punishment is supposed to have on the criminal, insofar as the criminal is imagined to say to themselves, "well, that sucked, better not commit another crime," is simply not working.
anyone who was not already in a gang when they were arrested will join one in prison, if not by choice then by force. [2] prison becomes a breeding ground for and swells the ranks of the latin kings, the bloods, the aryan nation, etc, with new officers, and old officers gain new rank and experience with the connections and experiences they had in prison. gangs widen their territory as people from around the country fill federal prisons. new chapters open in new locations, regional executive decisions can be brainstormed and decided on inside prison walls.

violence and the threat of violence are the basis on which unwritten rules and hierarchy is maintained in prison. rather than being a place for the reformation of harmful behavior, the kill or be killed lifestyle makes prison an "institution of higher criminal learning." [3] in other words, prison transforms petty criminals who have potential for reformation into far more hopeless cases. and supposedly unreformably/essentially violent criminals are given an environment in which they can perpetuate further violence and harm on others.

when people are released from prison, their charges make it more difficult for them to find employment and housing. [4] this pushes them back into crime.

prison not only fails in its own goal to reduce and prevent crime and violence--both in the punished individual and in society as a whole--it actually promotes both.

1 - nij.gov/topics/corrections/recidivism/pages/welcome.aspx
2 - theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/how-gangs-took-over-prisons/379330/
3 - highbeam.com/doc/1G1-85407311.html (earliest citation)
4- thecrimereport.s3.amazonaws.com/2/fb/e/2362/criminal_stigma_race_crime_and_unemployment.pdf

i completely agree. Do you think the prison system remains because the victims of criminals are just too vengeful to allow them to go un-punished? Because there doesn't seem to be much of a logical motive for them..

there are many competing ideas on the purpose of the criminal justice system

>i read the new testament
good job leonardo

i dont even think its the victims of crime. most people dont even think about prison at all as an actual place human beings go, otherwise theyd be able to intuit at least half of the things i wrote about. its clear people dont give it much thought either, thats how you get the abundance of simple-minded answers like we have here such as "execute or sterilise them"

criminal behaviour is largely genetically determined, and highly heritable. rehabilitation is a meme

tolstoy, for all his artistic merit, liked to roleplay as a saintly christian in order to alleviate his guilt over having been a debauched aristocrat in his youth

the only reason modern day society is so peaceful to begin with is due to executions of criminals in western countries having been extremely numerous over history, which largely destroyed the genetic substrate of criminality

people today who cry over the treatment of criminals are nothing but bourgeois baby boys who will never be victims of violence due to their privileged lives in sheltered, upper-middle class neighbourhoods

nice words from a wealthy aristocrat who lived easy all his life :)

Crime is an externality of capitalism just like the destruction of the environment. Those in power couldn't care less.

>5 principles of being a cuck

lmao, that's why it predates capitalism by millennia, right???

Yes

No but it is why capitalist societies, particularly the USA, have barbaric notions of criminal justice.

Prisons prevent the criminal from reenacting their crimes. When one commits a crime and no one stops him, there is the possibility that under this perceived freedom from persecution he might commit the crime again.

The fundamental problem of prison isn't if it reduces crime or fixes the "wrong-doers," it is to prevent crime increasing by letting the unlawful continue being unlawful. It isn't against the criminal, but in protection of the law.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the prisons themselves should turn into unlawful cesspits. A prisoner is still a human and thus should be treated humanely, but always under the idea that society can't simply afford to have him running free when there's still the possibility of him acting against the law.

The real problem of prisons is the dehumanization of the criminal, but prisons themselves are a necessary evil.

why not just kill the criminal if you're so obsessed with prevention

Crime is an externality of capitalism: it is not necessarily caused by capitalism. If the garnering of vast hordes of wealth places millions of people into poverty, the wealthy are not motivated to care about the treatment of criminals developed in the lesser strata of people they themselves established. It's not profitable for Wall St to worry about Buffalo NY or for Beverly Hills to worry about Compton - it's outside of their market. Frankly, the wealthy have gained tremendously from the fighting among the lower class.

t. never met a conservative irl

Le that wouldn't be humane desu. That is why most prison sentences aren't forever, because we can eventually give the criminal the benefit of the doubt. We prevent any immediate sequel crime, and then give another chance after a "time-out" that is as long as the crime is grave (ideally).

What did he mean by this?

Crime is an externality of every society. People invariably try to take what isn't theirs and hurt others, no matter what philosophy they subscribe to.

why is this a bad thing?

Look at social and economic inequality stats before tryna say a race of people are inherently more disposed to commit crime.

>Look at social and economic inequality stats before tryna say a race of people are inherently more disposed to commit crime.
Will that change their race?

You're right. That's a human tendency but we live in a society which has a history of exploiting that tendency and encouraging the equally human tendency for revenge. Civilization doesn't progress by writing-off its flaws as human nature.

If you improve the social and economic position of black people it will improve those stats.

>believing civilization progresses
ISHYGDDT

It certainly progresses in the strict sense of the word, for better or worse.

>Look at % of criminal blacks compared to rest of black population
>It's tiny

So when a criminal reoffends, the prison didn't work. And when he doesn't, you can say "the prison made him this way" even if the 'possibility ... he might commit the crime again' wouldn't have been realised had he not gone to prison

you better delete this

When the criminal re offends the "time-out" gets longer mate. In prison there shouldn't be any possibility of him reoffending. That's what I mean when I say prevent.

If does reoffend his jail time becomes longer, meaning he will be prevented from being a nuisance on social security for longer.

AlsoI ain't saying it's perfect. I'm saying it's necessary.

4.7% of the male African American population was incarcerated in 2009 which is right around the unemployment rate. I would refer to the unemployed in America as a small minority.
While a far larger percentage of blacks are in prison than whites, it correlates to the poverty rate almost exactly- with the exclusion of hispanics for various reasons.

how much of that african american population is fucking your wife you cuck?

Even a short jail sentence is basically a life sentence into the slave class. It's not a "time-out", it's a "you're out".

If that were true it'd be a pretty shitty consolation prize for being black.

Prisons should be used to make Keebler products. Like, a lot of them. Enough that all the free people get them for free.

S-slave class? What? Explain please.

>What the fuck is the point of sterilization?
so you dont have dumb criminal scum babies running around messing up the society even more

In China they execute people for a lot less than they do in the US, and they do it with an ungodly efficiency compared to the US.

Still, there is crime. People will risk their lives for small gain.

>Prisons prevent the criminal from reenacting their crimes. When one commits a crime and no one stops him, there is the possibility that under this perceived freedom from persecution he might commit the crime again.
but criminals were not criminals before their first crime, which means that there is a possibility that non-criminals commit crimes, which means that you must put non-criminals in prison to avoid the crimes that could occur.

I prefer to have dildos

It's amazing women need to "find this out".

No they're not necessary because the idea of prisons is punitive, not as a 'time out' so they can't reoffend while in prison. Home detention, parole, restraining orders, restricted access to a computer, going on sexual offender registry, etc. are all preventative. Putting someone in jail for possession of marijuana isn't just saying "hey, stay in prison so you can't possess marijuana for a fixed amount of time"

They first prohibited marijuana in order to have something to charge against mexican immigrants

The vast majority of people are beaten into submission every day of their lives.

You're right. we just need to start pumping billions of dollars into black communities and they w-

Oh... We already fucking do that...

You should stop reading Nietzsche

And the stats have improved.