Why do people with autism find it so hard to lie? I'm curious if it's known...

>/psy/mon|0-X's|Veeky Forumsmon
Oh great, its this fuckhead again.
Please go suck Tyrone's cock elsewhere you gargantuan faggot.
You know jack-shit about anything, and are only on this board to stroke your ego through pop-sci. You will wither away like the fat raisin you are and your life will amount to nothing. Your fucking pathetic, do us all a favor and kill yourself.

If you can't understand what other people are thinking and feeling, and if you can't understand that other people have information that is different from your own, it is impossible to lie.

This. You have to think ahead like four or five steps to make sure to get the details right and this is something I find really hard, because once you've said something it's effectively immutable. This is also why I find it hard to give impromptu speeches since I can't go back and edit my sentences to make the whole thing flow better.

I don't think it is due to your autism because I'm super autistic and I am constantly lying since lying is a very useful tool to manipulate people.

Because normies are evil by nature but autists are good by nature.

it's much more difficult to evaluate the consequences. you don't usually get harassed as much for telling the truth.

if you know the truth, you have some idea of how other people will feel about that truth based on how you feel about it. you don't know how someone will react to a lie.

Autists are incapable of manipulation

"Good by nature" only because their claws are blunt

Autists can lie easily if they wanted to. They just find the act of deceiving people to be an ordeal. As it should be. They're the next level of human evolution, and that's a good thing.

>They're the next level of human evolution, and that's a good thing.

it's a pathological condition. "high functioning" autistic people are rare and probably would still have been high functioning had they not developed autism. they either didn't get the full-blown version or had enough cognitive reserve to still function well in some areas.

the typical presentation of autism is developmental disability and pathological brain structure. most cannot live independently.

>it's a pathological condition.
It's a suite of symptoms that co-occur to varying extents with an unknown pathophysiology and etiology
>"high functioning" autistic people are rare
They're the majority of people on the spectrum

>They just find the act of deceiving people to be an ordeal.
That's what I meant, that they find deception and exploitative behavior both more difficult to effectively pull off and more taxing regardless of whatever personal moral beliefs they may have
>They're the next level of human evolution
Evolution is not a ladder. But I see what you mean, a society composed entirely of people with that trait yields better outcomes for all its members than the alternatives

>That's what I meant, that they find deception and exploitative behavior both more difficult to effectively pull off and more taxing regardless of whatever personal moral beliefs they may have

It has nothing to do with the moral beliefs that one adopts over the course of their lifetime. Autists are born with innate knowledge of Kant's categorical imperative and understand, at some visceral level, the consequence of perverting language until it is no longer meaningful. That's what makes it hard for them to lie because they see it for the horrible action that it is. Orwell, Kant, and Heidegger were all on the spectrum btw.

>It's a suite of symptoms that co-occur to varying extents with an unknown pathophysiology and etiology
>They're the majority of people on the spectrum

citation needed.

there's nothing good about it. calling it "the next step in evolution" is a bad joke.

The right question is: why do neurotypicals lie so much? I think the concept of white lies makes no sense. For example, let's say you spent the weekend at grandma's and she made you lunch. You didn't like it. If you tell a white lie, your grandma will think it's fine and she will keep making shit food, not only for yourself, but also, for other guests. On the other hand, were you to just tell her "grandma, your food is nice and all, but it could use a little more seasoning, and it's a little undercooked", she would make better food for yourself and for others. Another example would be when someone asks "how do I look?". Tell your girlfriend she looks great and you will be embarrassed. Tell your girlfriend she looks bad and she will either break up with you (which is a good thing if you don't want a girlfriend who doesn't wear clothes you like) or she will dress properly, as she should. As you can see from both examples, the logical thing to do is to always tell the truth. The only circumstance in which lying would be the logical thing to do is if you are a criminal and are questioned by authorities, or other equally grave situations.

>No theory of mind
This is bullshit.
Autists can understand that other people are sentient beings, that they have feelings, intentions, plans and beliefs of their own.
The only catch is they are not professional mind readers. When having a conversation with an autist, the autist will be more likely to be paying attention to what you have to say than to be paying attention to your body language.

>there's nothing good about it.
Only true if you consider superior intelligence as a bad thing.

autism does not preclude high intelligence, but intelligence is not a perk that you get from autism.

even if it were, it still wouldn't be worth all the other impairments associated with the disorder.

This entire thread is garbage.

>autism does not preclude high intelligence, but intelligence is not a perk that you get from autism.
Well, it's not that simple. There's a clear correlation between HFA and high IQ. There are plenty of studies on this. For example, there are many times more high functioning autists taking STEM classes in college than there are high functioning autists among the uneducated population. The countries with the most autists are also the ones with the highest academic papers, Nobel prizes and patents per capita, as well as highest average IQ (Scandinavia, West Europe, Japan, Singapore, etc).
>even if it were, it still wouldn't be worth all the other impairments associated with the disorder.
Based on what we know, it's a spectrum, so it depends on how tough one has it. But regardless of autism, smarter people are usually sad anyways

Listen here, autist, we're supposed to accept mediocrity because we live in a society where people never mature beyond high school emotional intelligence. So you better keep telling those white lies or I'll kick your sperg ass into the curb.

i cant imagine being this autistic desu
i thank the gods every day

>There's a clear correlation between HFA and high IQ

by definition. but you can't say that autism in general is associated with higher intelligence.

>The countries with the most autists are also the ones with the highest academic papers, Nobel prizes and patents per capita, as well as highest average IQ (Scandinavia, West Europe, Japan, Singapore, etc).

possibly for reasons unrelated to intelligence.

>possibly for reasons unrelated to intelligence.

or rather, your claim does not follow just from that association.

The thing is that most autists are probably capable of lying. In fact, they are probably better at lying than "regular" people. Rather, autists tend to view the world in black and white. Most children are taught at a young age that lying is badwrong, and autists take that to its logical conclusion that you should never lie.

Unfortunately, autists lack the social graces to understand that a majority of people are emotionally fragile and thus need to be lied to in order to protect what little self-esteem they have.

First part sounds exactly like me

Sounds like you're also a sociopath

Yep, you actually are an autist since you don't get that others have feelings that aren't logical like you seem to be

>feelings that aren't logical
There is no such thing. All things make logical sense, even if it's only on a cause and effect scale.

Sure, but since he apparently does not experience feelings (at least not like normal people do) he has trouble understanding why they would be influenced by emotions

>Autists are incapable of manipulation
They are but they manipulate differently.

I'm autistic and the first time I remember lying "I think I was 4 or 5" I accidentally knocked over an iron and burnt the carpet. My mom came in and asked me if I did it, I lied right to her face and said "no" strictly out of fear. I really thought she would've have beaten me if I said yes. I believe autistics can lie if there is a strong negative emotion associated with immediate consequence after doing something. I lie very rarely but it's usually out of fear or even anger. I do like to give people true information ahead of time so they aren't left in the dark, so I won't usually lie to people to get out of situations and give it to them straight forward. I can't really hold a conversation without talking about something I know of, it's hard to hold small talk when people talk about mundane everyday things you hear about all the time. It takes time for me to understand sarcasm and I take things very, very literal. If you say to me, "do you want to put the milk in the bag" it confuses me because the milk is already in a carton. You have to specify that you're going to place the carton of milk in the plastic bag into my cart otherwise it would literally take me longer than just saying that out. I honestly would've rather not been born autistic because I'm extremely introverted and talking to women is like hell because I don't understand women. I don't entertain women, I don't look them into the eye, they want my attention but I just give them drivel. I have had people surprised when I told them I was autistic. Ironic that when I usually meet up with people on Veeky Forums on muh xbone, they can spot cues simply by the way I talk. I speak very monotone and I talk about very specific things that are only relevant to one bit of information.
This is true, coming from someone who likely has Bipolar disorder lol

Something else I'm interested in: why do autistic people find it so hard to make eye contact? Like, what is the biological reason it is so hard for them?

there's no reason to make eye contact if you can't process nonverbal communication.

why would you bother?

You can probably explain it pretty easily from a phenomenological standpoint.

Anyone who has down syndrome or autism interacts with the world where they see objects to touch and people to talk to. They are simply responding to stimuli present in their environment.

What this translates to is that if somebody asks "Did you eat the last cookie on the counter?" the conversation is no longer about discussing the cookie and the counter as physical objects but instead immediately turns into them trying to address a feeling they want to suppress. They feel shame about eating the cookie, they know that the cookie is gone out of the box so they can no longer talk about it as if it was there and now they are pressed to quickly generate a possible scenario in which the cookie could have disappeared without it being their fault but because it slips out of the realm of simply interacting with something they now have to be creative on the fly, use their emotional language in a complex way that betrays how they actually feel and they also have to be nonlinear in their thinking to address what is happening to them when otherwise a couch is a couch in this instance they have to think up how a couch could be used to barricade a doorway or some other problem solving request that is unfamiliar to them.

I think you could say that a similar thing occurs with children. Their subconscious minds can come up with a quick response but one that lacks accuracy. They might be able to cover up how they feel with some will power and respond still having disguised their emotional state but the actual content of their answer might be lacking in precision because they don't have as much perspective on how realistic or likely the answer to the scenario of a missing cookie is. A person with autism or down syndrome will struggle to hide their emotions while coming up with a response.

Lying and deception in general is a very advanced social skill, the majority of people can’t do it well.

>"people have fragile egos and become resentful if not adequately protected from a painful truth" is simply not something you can reason out or infer from a body of experience
>you can -only ever- conclude this from the subconscious signals autists don't receive
Wew lad

Adult autistics still can't make eye contact even if they can talk well. There is a more complex reason. Autistic people react the exact opposite to how neurotypicals view eye contact. Autistic people view eye contact as physically uncomfortable while neurotypicals view "looking away" as disrespectful. That's a huge difference. It's literally the equivalent of staring into the sun for autistic people.

People say i have asbergers, and when i lied to a family member my lip would always quiver.
When i lie now, to a stranger or someone i love with a good reason i habe no problem. Though due to this, i think ive got a bigger issue to worry about than autism. Maybe its just the difference between asbergers anf full blown hugh functioning autism

I'm not autistic, but as a child I didn't understand the importance of making eye contact, so I didn't bother to do it. I assume it's the same for autists.

Nope
Eye contact causes anxiety in people with autism.

Really good post, just wanted you to know that someone read it

>What this translates to is that if somebody asks "Did you eat the last cookie on the counter?" the conversation is no longer about discussing the cookie and the counter as physical objects but instead immediately turns into them trying to address a feeling they want to suppress. They feel shame about eating the cookie, they know that the cookie is gone out of the box so they can no longer talk about it as if it was there and now they are pressed to quickly generate a possible scenario in which the cookie could have disappeared without it being their fault but because it slips out of the realm of simply interacting with something they now have to be creative on the fly, use their emotional language in a complex way that betrays how they actually feel and they also have to be nonlinear in their thinking to address what is happening to them when otherwise a couch is a couch in this instance they have to think up how a couch could be used to barricade a doorway or some other problem solving request that is unfamiliar to them.

...except if you asked "did you eat the last cookie on the counter" I'm pretty sure the average autistic kid would literally answer to the question whether they did or not if no moral consequence is strictly implied. I'd still answer like that to this day because it takes me a long ass time to realize the moral implications of physical phenomenon that have an emotional reaction to neurotypicals.

Why does it matter? Autists are just barely conscious "humans", they are not people any more than monkeys are people. Their brains are just inferior and really fucked up. They don't deserve any attention and should stay away from human society.

>If they try to lie, you can easily see the large discomfort on their face
Necessity to lie is caused by discomfort, not the other way around.

Hope you work with kids/autists dude.

>"high functioning" autistic people are rare and probably would still have been high functioning had they not developed autism
Autism is a more advanced state, so it's much more difficult to develop autism than to compensate it.

Like know was bad school

I try to run around things rather than lie.

Like answering their question without a lie, but not giving them the truth they want.

Is there any point in making eye contact?

We process our surroundings in general.