Any lawfags in here...

I was thinking that with the engineering degree I'm going be getting soon, I can work full time at a company and do a part time night program after work. It's like 6 years of school if I do it part time, right?

yes, but you won't get a 4.0, and you won't get a 180. even with those stats, you arent getting into harvard, yale, stanford, and are probably paying sticker at any other t10 school. good luck reading any lit anytime in the next ten years, between your 60-80 work weeks, best case scenario. worst case you are exactly where you are right now, 4 years older, 200k in debt.

why would you get a law degree when you have an engineering degree? any law school that will let you be a part time student over 6 years is not one that will plac well into big law. you will graduate 6 years from now, with 6 figure debt, and, if you are lucky, job offers between 50-70k. why do you want to be a lawyer? money? a bmw?

thanks for the insight, doesnt sound so bad

patent law

i am always confused when people have this mindset that students with high GPAs had no problems during uni. they worked hard, are smart, and struggled through the same "Depression" you did. they did better than you did. they will do better than you in law school too.

>i am always confused when people have this mindset that students with high GPAs had no problems during uni
nowhere did i imply this

i said "etc etc" to satirize my own excuses, if that wasn't apparent

and obviously im doing fine now since ive gotten a 4 in two consecutive semesters

about a year ago i discovered that law is my passion i read law journals biweekly as a hobby as i said id literally become a chattel slave in order to become a lawyer

where do you want to live for the next 10-15 years, after college? it will be really hard to get into one of the t14 with that GPA, even with a killer lsat.

i probably want to stay in TN, not many states i want to live in

i want to go to the best school i can but id be happy with UTK would love to go to Vandy tho

i know i can break 170 idk how much higher i can do after that

im very autistic at standardized tests in a good way

fuck the law

any crime dudes in the house?

how do you "know" that? the difference between 170 and 180 is massive. but if you are just aiming for UTK then you are probably ok. do not expect to ever make more than 75k, so don't take out 6 figure debt to get there. just be smart about it man, dont sell your future for something you think is your passion. a law degree is not a guarantor of an upper middle class life. people won't automatically respect you/be impressed. just be careful, know what you are getting into before you jump in.

its just a matter of not getting questions wrong right? the bell curve doesnt really matter if you dont miss any

yeah im fine with living a modest life but my last question is would i be able to become a prosecutor and then a judge/law prof? my dream would be to do appeals

If you can get into a T14, then by all means go, you'll get a decent job so long as you're not at the very bottom of the class. If it's full price, and you have a disastrous 1L year, don't be afraid to quit.

Outside of the T14, maybe up to around the top 60 or 70, only go if you are prepared to work your ass off and be in the top third, maybe even the top fifth, and do a prestigious journal or moot court. If you can't do that, but remain in the top half, you might still be able to get a job in the state or even just the local area, especially if you have some connections. If they want you to pay full tuition and you didn't do well in college, then I'd be very careful; just one bad semester your 1L year can submarine your GPA and therefore your chances of getting a good internship or on a journal.

Outside of the top 90 or so, just don't go, unless you can get a full ride and plan on doing so well your 1L year that you can transfer to a better school. Or you have a job guaranteed for you after you graduate.

law professor means top of class, HYS. maybe t6, but University of Kentucky law, def not. if you are content being an ADA in nowhere kentucky, working your ass off for life and then probably still never becoming a judge, then live that life.

Say that to my face.

but also, with this, go with the understanding that literally every person there has heard all of the horror stories, every person there is no longer just coasting through undergrad in their early 20s (where a 2.7 GPA isn't the end of the world). everyone will be working their ass off, trying to get those good internships, make those connection.

are all law school classes graded on a curve? how hard is it actually to get into the top fifth of top 60 class

Just about every 1L class is graded on a curve, except probably your legal writing, analysis, and research course (or whatever they call it wherever you might go, it's a fairly standard course). Past 1L, a lot of the big-name, bar-prep courses like Federal Income Tax, Corporations, Trusts and Estates, Professional Responsibility will be graded on a curve. Beyond that, including in seminars, it's really up to the professor: my antitrust class had 16 people, 11 of us got A's, and no one got lower than a B. This is very uncommon, though, only course I had that was that easy. Not all courses follow a strict bell curve, you might see some courses with 40% A range, 40% B range, and 20% C range, but again these will be your upper level niche courses, not larger courses or seminars.

Disrespect the law and you disrespect me.

>law
If you want to be a state cuck, go ahead.

I hear Harvard law school is accepting GREs this application season.

zzzzzzzzzzzz

Only liberals care about the law.

but the law is fundamentally a conservative force that maintains a standard of societal norms

Got 167 but my GPA ain't so stellar

In Canadaland, might apply to the states as well

Should I take it again, I took it last year

I love you

>tfw absolute dumb fuck and no hope ever being a lawyer

it hurts

Is this really how Americans think of being a lawyer? That if you can't be a judge or a BIG DiCK LAW FIRM you might as well not be?

Maybe someoine just wants to help people and this is a good way to do it

In the US you have to go into crushing debt to go to a decent law school without family money.

Ask any partner at a top biglaw firm and they'll tell you to stay away from the law unless you either KNOW you're gonna succeed easily or you have some way to pay your way through law school to get to a comfy suburban attorney life.

>In the US you have to go into crushing debt to go to a decent law school without family money.

Private unis/schools were a mistake?

Nice country.

>you will never study at Ivy League.
why even bother desu

Law school is around 60k a year, plus living expenses, for three years. There are loads of "lawyers" with 6 figure debt that hate their lives. You can't help anyone if you can't help yourself. Every first year law student wants to work for the public interest, but there arent loads of positions at the aclu, especially if you werent top of your class at HYS. law school is prohibitively expensive, even public ones

I'm in law school in Canada. I think it's pretty fun, although there are a lot of STEM people in my programme and they are obsessed with finding the "right" answer.

I can't speak for the USA, but in Canada, I don't think it's especially difficult to find a law job. It's probably about as hard as other fields--maybe a bit harder, but not by much. A lot of it comes down to social skills and "good fit".

There are lots of jobs outside of the big firms on Bay St.

There are lots of engineers at my school. They all want to go into patent law. Apparently there's going to be a growing demand for biotech stuff too.

>Should I do it?
Do you want to make a difference?

Six figure debt can't be THAT HARD to deal with as a lawyer (legalized criminal)

I went to law school. But I don't think I can give you advice since I'm not from the US. Here you major in Law, you don't have to go through four years of university to then spend another three years in law school. Also, my education was free. I wouldn't do it again, I wasted a lot of time and I can't find a job as a lawyer, only as a paralegal.

I'm going to law school in the Netherlands. I really enjoy it thus far (almost finished my first year), but it's ought to be very different in the US, so I'm not sure if I'd recommend it.

In the Netherlands, the career perspectives aren't great either, but I'm just trying to excel and/or get in the top 20%. I'd imagine it would be alright then.

>its just a matter of not getting questions wrong right? the bell curve doesnt really matter if you dont miss any
???

you could literally say that about any examination

"its just a matter of not getting questions wrong"

ok, now let's see you do it

what fucking country are you, for starters?

the field of law is on the verge of being subsumed by "white collar robots", so I wouldn't count on it being what it has been

Any books for non-lawfags who want to be aware how the legal system in their country works?

Go to your university's course page. Check what course books they are reading. Read them.

Alternatively go to your country's book store
buy the course books

Do it.

Do you want to work 60 hour weeks (on average, with over 70 hours near the end of the year or whenever things pile up) after you graduate, assuming you aren't retarded and can land a job at a very good regional firm or a decent firm in a large market (e.g. New York, Chicago)? Possibly in an area of law that isn't your number one choice? If that sounds like what you want to do, then yes.

Only go to law school if you get into the T14 and are absolutely sure you want to be working those hours for the next 10-20 years (at least) of your life, or if you get into a top 50 school outside the T14 with a lot of financial assistance. If you can graduate with less than 50k debt I'd say it would be worth it. Outside the top 40 or 50 schools, only go if tuition is free, and be prepared to work extra hard to land a job. A strong regional school that is a little lower down is probably better than a higher-ranked school in a market with lots of better schools nearby.

The LSAT isn't too difficult if you practice (I got a 177) and is for many schools considered more important than anything else when determining what sort of package to offer (after ethnicity, of course). Study for a couple months and make sure you are acing or almost acing the practice exams before taking the real thing.

Student orgs and journals are good to join, but you should be interning at your job by your second summer (first would be best, but isn't necessary), so focus on your grades more than anything else.

Avoid Veeky Forums and every other time wasting activity while you're in law school. You can have one hobby, sometimes, if you want to finish in the top 5%, which is the best way to make sure you land a good job.

This is false, you can get merit-based assistance at a number of schools that makes the debt manageable.

Corporate lawyers start out around $100k (much more than that depending on firm and location). They only take two-thirds home after taxes. If someone graduates law school with $200k in debt, it would take them about 8 years to pay it off if they spent half of their take-home pay on loan payments, and they would only have about $30k-$50k to live on, which puts them much closer to the average salary than you would expect.

this

liberals only care about whatever legitimacy they can wring out of the illegal 14th amendment

ivy league law here whats good

I read threads like these and can't tell if people are anti-intellectual or somehow know more about the system than you give them credit for. To have so many people harping on a law degree is discouraging considering how much of a necessity it is for careers in the field itself if you are interested.

sounds comfy.

too bad im low iq and never had a.chance.

Don't. Being a lawyer is a shit job. Start a buisness.

I work at small firm and make about $75,000 a year working 40 hours per week 5 years in. I almost never go to court and am considered the writer/researcher for the office. It kinda sucks but what the hell else would I be doing? I represent a lot of small businesses/ individuals and about 4 or 5 times a year I feel like I've really helped someone. Lotta petty B.S. mixed in there though. I never would have made it at a big firm representing corporate clients. I can't work that long and hard and if I didn't have the validation of appreciation from real clients, I couldn't keep it up. I interviewed at a few big firms but they could smell out my autism. I was lucky in that my family paid for law school. If I had gone into debt, I'd be screwed right now. When all is said and done, yes I would do it over because I was a history and philosophy major and I have nothing else to offer. I do wish I had been more hardworking and less idealistic when I started law school though. If you have a choice between going to your state law school or a private one for mega dollars, I'd advise the state one because it gives you more freedom to find a niche when you get out without the debt.

>I do wish I had been more hardworking and less idealistic when I started law school though
elaborate

im in top half at a T14
do i need to work harder than this? because I really dont want to

If I want to become a lobbyist for interest groups and the scientific community in general, do I need a law school degree? I am a little lost in life in terms of what I want to do. I want to influence congressional decision and public opinion (as well as disseminate it), but I don't think I'l reach the ranks of politicians.

I went to a T14 as well. My grades weren't great, I was weird, and I aimed for an oversaturated minor market close to home. Therefore I did not end up with what my classmates would consider a good job. Aim for places where a lot of graduates of your school go and give good interviews. Come across as someone who works hard, is focused, and flexible.

but i don't want to work hard as a corporate slave and i don't want to live in new york

im going to graduate debt-free though. wtf should i do?

Good question. I don't really have a good answer and I bet your school's career services doesn't either. Totally useless and only worried about Biglaw. Just don't panic if you aren't employed at graduation. It is awkward at school when everyone else has jobs, but especially if you are debt free, it really isn't that big a deal. Lots of T14 grads end up at places that are never even discussed at those schools after a couple of years. There are a million law firms out there. Someone has to sue those companies the Biglaw firms represent. Also there are state governments and non-profits. Once you get past the big firms, finding a job is really a grind, no matter where you went to law school. Nice to see you thinking outside the box though.

not really, i know a judge who said when he went to school in the late 60's tuition was less than 5k a year

lots of factors made the price rise but itd be silly to say its the fault of having private universities

i will

its not math questions or anything hard

its literally arguments, reading comprehension and following rules

if you post on Veeky Forums and you can't make actual arguments then that's sad

if you post on Veeky Forums then obviously you can read

and you're not banned from Veeky Forums so obviously you can follow rules

now just do those 3 things within 35 minutes 5 times in a row

would it be better to go to the best school you can and risk not being in the top of the class or going to a good regional school and being top of the class?

Convert to Judaism and attend their secret networking events with other Jews.

do you think this is how lobbying groups work? individuals"influencing public opinion and disseminating it"? if you want an "influential" dc law job, go to t14, top of class, and become Big Law drone. a law degree isn't some ticket to the hallowed realm of justice and truth, it is a gamble and the big payoff is long hours, corp law, "perfect suburban life". if you wanted to be rich, you should have been an investment banker. as an associate in a big law firm, those are the people you will be working for anyway

the fact that you think this is what the lsat is and that "its not math or anything hard" is hilarious. do you know anything about it beyond "i did great on the SAT, i will do great on the lsat too!!"

did you miss the part of my post where i described the 3 types of sections on the LSAT ? Yes, I am in the process of practicing to take it this summer

have you taken a practice test yet? what did you score?

sad part is this isnt even a joke

It's better than going for the STEM meme.

I'm considering going to law school next year if I don't land any grad job for my finance degree. I got great results in my undergrad and should easily get a good score in the LSAT - enough to get me into the best law school in my state.

How hard is it to start your own firm?

My brother is doing a law degree and I figured that could be a nice possibility down the road once we both get some experience.

A lot of people in this thread strike me as having no idea what they're talking about, or as being in law school without ever actually practicing.

I went to a T6, did better than average but not amazing by any means, and now practice litigation at a large firm in a major East-coast city. My firm pays market and I've been there a few years now, so my salary is well north of $200,000 (even if I don't get a bonus by hitting hours, which I've done every year so far). I enjoy what I do on a daily basis, I like the people I work with, and usually the hours aren't that bad except if it's unexpectedly busy for some reason, or I'm in the middle of a trial, have a big motion due, or have some other deadline. I probably bill an average of 40-45 hours per week, and to do that I'm probably in the office 50-55 hours per week.

As other people have said in this thread, go to a good school (I'd say more like T10 than T14 to get your chances of landing a job pretty high) or maybe a strong regional so long as you're okay living in that region for the long term. If you're going to a strong regional, you should probably not be paying sticker. The higher ranked your school, the more okay it is not to do very well. At my T6 only the bottom 10% had a real risk of having no job at graduation. At a T3, even the worst students can get a very good job. To get into a good school, LSAT trumps GPA, though both are key, and both should be good: there aren't a lot of great options for splitters. You've got to actually take practice tests to see how you may do on the LSAT, you can't just assume you'll do well (and even if your PTs turn out well, some people choke on the real thing). At law school, essentially only your first year matters in terms of getting into biglaw. All three years matter for clerkships. Can't speak authoritatively as to public interest, but I'm under the impression that's more resume driven. For biglaw, many firms in a variety of cities now pay market, which starts a new associate at $180,000 and increases on a set scale. Despite the horror stories, almost no one consistently works 60-80 hour weeks. That would mean billing over 3,000 per year, which nearly no one has ever done (I've seen stats for the entirety of the associates at my firm, and even the ones who bill a disproportionally high amount billed 2,500-2,600, with most being far below that). 60-80 hours per week is a stat thrown around by people that don't know what they're talking about or that like to brag through complaining. You are on call 24/7 though, which can be pretty terrible.

>being on call
bro im so sorry

Sounds very intruiging, my law student career [GER] got me into the field of European / International trade law.

The account of your success I find very inspiring and hopeful. Have you read any essential books that, in particular, benefitted you on finding a job or building your career / personality? How did you manage to land that job? How did you find your specialisation?

It's 5 for me. And "free" just means 40-60% tax rate really, I'd much prefer a low tax no state help model, but that's probably because I'm upper middle class, son of a lawyer who is studying to continue working in his firm.

>the field of European / International trade law
In the U.S., that's a pretty specialized field, though I know some people that work in related fields in continental Europe. I actually have a LLM from a school in Europe as well, but I don't have much insight into things there beyond that European law school is far easier than U.S. law school. In general, the process of studying law and getting a job as a lawyer in most European countries is so different than the U.S. that I can't really provide much guidance.

I didn't read any particular books that were noteworthy to prepare me, though I did read a fair share of cases before I began attending law school. People speak highly of Thinking Like A Lawyer by Schauer, though, if you want to give that a go. Once you're employed you can read more specialized texts relevant to your field, some of the partners at my firm are big advocates of that. I got my job through the standard on-campus interview (OCI) process. It's a myth that you need some sort of connection to land a law firm gig (though it certainly doesn't hurt). In practice all the top schools have OCI, where a large number of firms come to your school or somewhere nearby and recruit. If you're near the top of your class at a good school, they're wooing you as much as you're wooing them. Litigation isn't really a specialization, it's just my practice area, but I got into that because I've known for a while that I wanted to deal with the adversarial side of the system and at least occasionally go to court. It should be noted though, that not all firms accommodate what you want to practice, the needs of the firm usually trump yours, but you can gauge the chances of getting the practice area you want when you're weighing your employment options.

was it worth getting a Euro LLM? cause im thinking about it.

Could I live a comfy life on continental Europe with one?

>was it worth getting a Euro LLM? cause im thinking about it.
I practice in the U.S., so it doesn't do much for me.

>Could I live a comfy life on continental Europe with one?
Like I said, not my wheelhouse so I can't weigh in.

>tfw failed applying to law school multiple times
i wish i wasnt so sit at fukcing writing and learning

Very insightful, thank you so much for your time. Let me aspire to be as great as you are.

bymp

As an aimless phil/modern language undergrad I am beginning to wonder if law school is the way to go. I'm currently at a 3.6 now as a sophomore and I'm worried my GPA won't cut it unless I actually start having to pay attention and do the work and maintain straight As for the next two years.

Is grad school even more of a meme than law? I'd assume so.

/b/ros idk what im doing with my life

how can we help you?

tell me what to do

Since you are in a law school thread... go to law school.

even if it's only a top 50 school in a shitty city and state?

I don't either. I literally have nothing to strive for. No ambitions. No education. No interests.

What city? What state? I am lucky I have a pretty good state with some pretty good programs relatively close to my hometown/city.

Arizona. Apparently ASU is a top 25 school and Arizona is top 50. Tuition would be really cheap if I were to decide to go but I obviously have doubts on my finding a job after school. Would hate above all else to come out of school and have absolutely no way of getting a good job like coming out of a T14 does.

With your finance background, you should specialise in tax law and become an advisor, you can earn a lot. Hell, you could even move to a caribbean island and manage letterbox companies if you don't care for ethics. It would give you a lot of free time to live the Veeky Forums lifestyle.

Seeing as it's law and lit related, I'm currently trying to write my cover letters / re-do my CV for clerkships. Can anyone offer some advice for a rather bewildered student -- cheers

As many people have stated above, Law Schools don't automatically have to prime you to go out and direct seize a super sought after top in a top firm where you will suddenly be able to pay off all your debts and live large and in charge. I'm using Law School as a way to keep my options open but I'm also considering a PhD at some point in my future.

Depends on who you want to clerk for. Any ideas yet?