finish The Iliad

> finish The Iliad
> ends abruptly with no mention of the Trojan Horse or Achilles' heel.

Kind of disappointing desu.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Cycle
youtu.be/aofPdMbXzUQ
amazon.com/dp/B01MURDLPW
youtu.be/MOvVWiDsPWQ?t=55s
youtu.be/qI0mkt6Z3I0
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you fucking clown

Rude.

are you legally retarded

The Iliad and The Odyssey were originally 2 parts of a 10 part series.
The other 8 parts have been lost to the sands of time.

>The Iliad and The Odyssey were originally 2 parts of a 10 part series.
no

that's right, it was 12 parts

In sort of the same way that Tora! Tora! Tora! And Schindler's List are part of a series of movies.

Of course it was a series.
It was most likely intended to be read in order.

It would be like if The Two Towers survived and the other 2 parts of The Lord of the Rings never existed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Cycle

The eternal #1 in the list of lost books I want found:The full Greek Epic Cycle of Troy, much of which is lost, except in fragments and later summaries. The eight works together told the entire history of the Trojan War in epic verse.

1. Cypria (11 books by Stasinus): the events leading up to the Trojan War and the first nine years of the conflict, especially the Judgement of Paris.(fifty lines remain of the original text)

2. Iliad (24 books by Homer): Achilles' rage against first king Agamemnon and then the Trojan prince Hector, ending with Achilles killing Hector in revenge for the death of Patroclus and Priam coming to Achilles to ransom Hector's body. (full manuscripts remain of the original text)

3. Aethiopis 5 books by Arctinus): the arrival of the Trojan allies, Penthesileia the Amazon and Memnon; their deaths at Achilles' hands in revenge for the death of Antilochus; Achilles' own death. (only five lines remain of the original text)

4. Ilias Mikra ("Little Iliad" 4 books by Lesches): events after Achilles' death, including the building of the Trojan Horse and the Awarding of the Arms to Odysseus. (nearly thirty lines remain of the original text)

5. Iliou persis ("Sack of Troy" 2 books by Arctinus): the destruction of Troy by the Greeks. (only ten lines remain of the original text)

6. Nostoi ("returns" 5 books by Agias or Eumelus): the return home of the Greek force and the events contingent upon their arrival, concluding with the returns of Agamemnon and Menelaus. (five and a half lines remain of the original text)

7. Odyssey (24 books by Homer): the end of Odysseus' voyage home and his vengeance on his wife Penelope's suitors, who have devoured his property in his absence.(full manuscripts remain of the original text)

8. Telegony (2 books by Eugammon): Odysseus' voyage to Thesprotia and return to Ithaca, and death at the hands of an illegitimate son Telegonus. (only two lines remain of the original text)

Maybe someday... from Oxyrhynchus or another treasure-trove.

I'd be more excited if they found Sophocles' 40 or so lost plays to be honest.

The Oedipus Cycle is his masterpiece but that could have been dogshit compared to his other plays for all we know.

Jesus Christ.

You fucking retard, that would be like saying Corneille's Cinna is the sequel to Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra.

They're different works by different authors on similar subjects, not a fucking series.

If it was a collaborative effort where a group of authors agreed to write a combined effort on the history of the Trojan War in verse, then yes it is a series and meant to be read as such.

You are autistic and wrong.

No. What we have left of Sophocles is a scholarly collection.
A best-of, if you will. That's why it's seven plays.
By the way it would be 90+ lost plays.

>90+ lost plays

Why should we trust contemporary scholars though?

If the same happened with Shakespeare they probably would have chosen trash like As You Like It or All's Well That Ends Well and shit like that to be remembered.

This

Those retarded plebs thought Lear was bad because muh no happy ending

That part is in the Aeneid

>If it was a collaborative effort
no.

>where a group of authors agreed to write a combined effort
lol no

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I was more irritated by the constant divine intervention t.b.h. Not exactly a satisfying plot resolution for the modern reader.

>If
Yes, if.
It's not a series.

We have fragments of his other plays ; it seems that we really have the best.

For example, Euripides' works survive both in a scholarly collection and a volume of his works in alphabetical order ; we can clearly see that the works from his scholarly collection are far superior.

The collection isn't made by contemporary scholars, but by centuries of alexandrinian philologists who had nothing better to do, the same who gave us our edition of Homer.

I'd rather decide myself which plays are good and which aren't instead of being told "We're Greek. Just trust us."

This. It's highly unlikely that the epic cycle was ever totally finished, or even attempted, let alone by Homer. Probably anything else that did get written wasn't written by Homer and wasn't very good.

But you don't have a choice do you :^)

Ehhhh there will probably be a supercomputer in about 20 years who can analyze Sophocles' writing and just churn out hundreds of plays in his style.

The same will happen with all of your other favorite dead authors as well.

You will just be able to push a button and say
>Give me a play in the style of Aeschylus
and a manuscript will get shit out that flawlessly emulates his style.

>SHAKESPEARE'S NEW PLAY PREMIERE : THE FALL OF TRUMP, STARRING BRUCE WILLIS, JARED LETO AND JOHNNY DEPP
please end it famalam

That's just the jewish supercomputer and not real Aeschylus though

But itsnt that was a fucking poem that everybody know for oral tradition?
Like they only know the 2 of it?

Not necessarily. The plays of Sophocles that we do have were preserved because they were good.

You're lying if you wouldn't pay money to see that.

Nigga Aristotle was the first to preserve them as texts

Surely It'd be more like if the whole of noir detective fiction disappeared except The Maltese Falcon and The New York Trilogy. They're two works in the same tradition, intimately connected and far apart at the same time, with the works spanning the spectrum lost.

What's your point?
My point is that contemporary audiences usually don't know genius when they see it.
Sometimes it takes centuries for greatness to be recognized.
There's probably at least a dozen plays where they said
>Well this play doesn't follow the rules of tragedy so it's just bad. Into the trash it goes.

>mfw humanities majors stray into science

That ain't how AI works, sonny.

The Iliad exhibits clear redactional traits, inner complexity (composition by circular inclusion, as in Plato's Republic), a conciseness of subject quite unlike any oral work (16 days at most), two mentions of writing, one direct and one indirect, and a single personality with its conceptions, ideas and thoughts which are extremely personal and particular : the work is indeed based on an oral tradition as to the general course of events of the myths it describes, but its composition is that of a single person who used writing.

If you told people 20 years ago that everyone would have a smartphone in the future, they would have laughed at you and thought you were crazy.

If you don't think that in the future, supercomputers will be able to create art like literature and music in the style of people like Bach and Shakespeare, then you are objectively wrong.
Once the computing capacity increases, solving these problems will be a breeze for them.

Value is arbitrarily assigned. Your complaint is someone else arbitrarily assigned value, not you. They preserved it, you didn't. Too bad.

>abloo bloo why didn't they save it all for me
>abloo bloo, i'm the boss, not them
Cry more, bitch nigger.

>autistic STEM virgins would :
>have enough understanding of literature and music to produce such an AI
>have the will to do so
>deem it economically viable
>wouldn't use the AI to write genre fiction and similar autistic virgin shit

Aristotle failed to live up to Pl8o and he's a retard for not preserving all of them

There are too sides to it.

There were people who wouldn't have believed we made the technological advances we have. There were people who thought we'd make greater, far more outrageous technological advances.

Maybe the naysayers are the former, maybe you're the latter.

>If you told people 20 years ago that everyone would have a smartphone in the future, they would have laughed at you and thought you were crazy.

Solid argument

Human involvement will be minimal to nonexistent.
The computer will just scan the author's work, looking for a master algorithm that catalogs all of their idiosyncrasies, word choices, sentence structure, subject matter, etc. and create fully formed works.

In the beginning the works will be bad, but the results will improve.

It's actually a very good argument.

>durr my tiny brain can't comprehend complex technological advancements in the future so that means they won't happen XD

None of this will ever happen because the works of the greatest geniuses of mankind already are infinite in content ; we don't need more.

>supercomputers will be able to create art like literature and music
Explain to me how creativity can be programmed. I'll wait.

...

>he actually believes As You Like It and All's Well are bad plays

Kill yourself, you tasteless waste of space.

I know it's cool to roleplay as Armond White, but they truly are pretty bad.
They were like the stuff he wrote to put food on the table.

If you think The Merry Wives of Windsor is good too, then you're just an edgy contrarian.

...

You are the contrarian here.

youtu.be/aofPdMbXzUQ

Trojan Horse is referred to in The Odyssey. Its main source is The Aeneid.

Achilles Heel occurs in later Greek and Roman works.

As you like it is objectively one of shakespeare's best plays, though.

I bet you think the tempest is bad too

Should I definitely read The Illiad before the Odyssey? I hear it's not as good, but is it still worth reading?

And that's JUST Sophocles. Less than 10% of the Greek plays remain, it's a travesty.

homer was a bard drawing from a vast narrative that was molded to suit contemporary (8th century greek) audiences and therefore concerns.

the work of milman parry prove homer was an oral poet drawing on previous traditions. think of homer as drawing from a collective set of stories (epic cycle) in much the same way that fictional universes are plucked from today to create individual simpsons episodes or star wars movies. homer takes his audience's knowledge of this larger narrative for granted.

the iliad plucks from the larger narrative a smaller one about the wrath of achilles, his feud with agamemnon, the death of patroclus, and the burial of hector. we know troy will fall today; an ancient audience even moreso.

it is not necessary to say this. instead, homer uses his selected narrative to talk about the contradiction of the heroic code: that kleos or, undying glory in bardic song, necessitates the death and shame of another. this is the tragedy of the iliad, and part of what makes it so genius. note the iliad does not end with the fall of troy and the glorying of the argives. no: it ends with the funeral laments of three women and the burial of the last capable man in troy. we know what will happen next, so the pathos is intensified.

homer's audience would find it even more intense as andromache will be enslaved to another man, hector's son will be tossed off the walls of troy, priam will be slain on the altar. the pent up rage of the argives is not depicted in the iliad because homer's audience would already know.

The Fall of Troy, by that smyrna queer

Yes you should. I think it's better than the Odyssey.
The Iliad feels much more grand than the Odyssey does. There's Gods running around getting into things, characters have their own problems they're dealing with in addition to the war. Lots of internal struggle from a wide range of characters.
The Odyssey is about one guy. (Gods are mostly silent) He's great, but sometimes it's pretty boring. Despite it covering 10 years, it seems like surprisingly little actually happens. It's mostly telling stories, planning, and waiting on a boat or near a boat,
It's still dope though.

>implying it hasn't already been done

amazon.com/dp/B01MURDLPW

the iliad is the destruction of the oikos, while the odssey is the restoration of the oikos. i agree that the iliad is better and worth reading first, but the odyssey most resembles contemporary narratives.

>my atheist conceptions of storytelling and narrative structure
>my self referencing physicalist secular belief system that restricts my imagination
>ancients not pandering to my deadened, self mortifying, psychotic perception of reality
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE you fucking heathen

pleb

>durr hurr no technology has ever come even vaguely close to replicating the genius of Melville or Rembrandt of Boticelli or Bernini or Joyce or William James or Zen Painting, but my professor who gets grants from the state who subsidizes the tech industry told me that art isn't real and computers will make dope chip tunes in the future
fucking kek

Contemporary narratives are all shit.

tbqh Achilles really came across as a whiny primadonna and I found him to be an annoying character. Is it just my modern sensibilities that colour my view of him, or did people in ancient times see him in a similar way?

I get that honour was seen as a yuge deal in ancient Greece, but Achilles cursing the entire Achaen army just because Agamemnon stole his waifu seemed like a pretty bitch nigga move. He only came out to save the desperate Achaens when the Trojans killed his husbando, and before then seemed pretty content to see his curse played out.

Maybe the fact that noble Hector gets killed by the bitch nigga Achilles is actually the core tragedy of The Iliad?

It's Agamemnon's fault.

>act like you are the king of everything when you aren't
>too much of a retard to just admit you were wrong and win the war
cunt

Achilles was nice just to stay in his tent and weight for an apology instead of straight up leaving

wait
jej

Trust me computing capacity isn't the problem, the hardware we have surpasses any calculations that the brain can make.

Why didn't Achilles curse Agamemnon instead of the entire Achaen armies then?

Also Aggy did try to reconcile things with Achilles and offered him shitloads of dosh, gifts, an apology, his waifu back, etc. That offer seemed pretty damn fair to me.

>the iliad is the destruction of the oikos
no

>while the odssey is the restoration of the oikos
no

>the odyssey most resembles contemporary narratives.
The Ancients often thought it had been written for women.

>somebody gets killed
>greedy greeks run in from all sides to steal his armour and horses, ignoring the battle around them and even dying in the process

were people back then retarded?

>tfw you will never listen to some old wise guy at a campfire telling these amazing poetic stories with bravado bringing them to life in front of you

why even live?

I was going to explain, but then I realized you're a fucking retard. Kill yourself.

>greedy greeks
>greeks
you answered your own question user

at least you have youtube approximations

youtu.be/MOvVWiDsPWQ?t=55s

youtu.be/qI0mkt6Z3I0

>Valuing material goods above your honour
kys

> thinking cursing an entire army is okay because one dude sullied your honour

kys

Thats actually pretty cool. Is there something similar for me to listen to while biking into the city? I'm currently reading Iliad, would listening to Odyssey enhance the experience?

i guess the odyssey is shit then? all i'm saying is it follows the coming of age of the son, the return of the father after many trials, and the reunion and establishment of justice. odysseus' nostoi is more reminiscent of the stories we tell than the iliad.

you don't see the tragedy of andromache/hector/anstyanax as being the cost of war? briseis likewise was wed to a king before achilles plundered her. the destruction of the family unit because of war runs all throughout the poem. little notes like so and so, who once owned a farm on crete, fell to the hands of diomedes, far from his sheep and his hot baths, as being homer emphasizing the destruction of the oikos?

odyssey likewise is the joining of odysseus, penelope, and telemachus--the basic, greek family unit. the odyssey's themes of hospitality and the joining of man and woman with well-raised heirs is throughout the poem.

>The Ancients

who exactly are The Ancients? for the sake of classicism don't pull bullshit out of your ass. Samuel Butler thought the odyssey was written by a woman because of how sympathetic it is to women along with its non-martial content. internal evidence of the poems would suggest bardic performance was a solely male trait: see phemius, demodocus as examples of homeric bards. achilles, in the embassy to achilles, is depicted as singing the famous deeds of heroes with patroclus. likewise, odysseus when he strings the bow is compared to a bard when he plucks the string like a lyre.

i don't see any evidence for a female homer. but could it be argued iliad/odyssey were composed by women because of how sympathetic they treat their females? i don't think so. the grief the last three women, andromache, hecuba, and helen in iliad 24 is heartbreaking and may suggest this, but the grief of achilles at the death of patroclus is a male counterpart. the simplest answer, i think, would be to say homer was a male bard acutely aware of human psychology and the ultimate costs of war.

Veeky Forums needs to stop preaching the supremacy of the greeks when they can hardly understand the poems and the fundamental problems surrounding them.

tragedy*
ftfy

Well, it's impossible to infer how Homer wanted Achilles to come across, but the poem is clearly about Achilles's evolution and his character is significantly different in the end, during his meeting with Priam.

i think you're underestimating the greek ego: achilles is the epitome of heroic values. unfortunately it makes him inhuman. michael clarke's "between lions and men: images of the hero in the iliad" talks about this much better than i can here. his quarrel with agamemnon should be seen as a violation of achilles' honour and property. if achilles were to bend to agamemnon's will, then he would be a bitch. do you say sorry when people spill drinks on you? if you do, you're not an achilles.
the tragedy of the iliad is that both achilles and hector are striving for a heroic ideal which ultimately causes an immense amount of grief for the ones they love. hector is given advice by his wife andromache to not meet achilles one on one; when he refuses her sensible advice he is slaughtered after running around troy three times. he knows his death is inevitable, but to avoid it would be to incur the shame of the entirety of troy. he complains to andromache that the women and men of troy would laugh at him as a coward.
achilles refuses on principle. he wants them to hurt in order to sate his need for honour and glory.
judging an old poem on your own flawed conceptions of heroism tells you more about yourself and your own failures than what the poem itself means. read the iliad again and maybe check out some secondary lit. the iliad is maybe my favourite piece of lit of all time. i'm glad people are even talking about it.

>tfw read the Iliad in 9th grade and found out my English teacher hadn't read it

I do not know enough to argue or confirm, but great post man I really dig it.

I'll suck ur dick IRL boy
you just explained the shit out of how to enhance the classic literature reading experience

So how accessible is prose in the Iliad?

Strong AI can do pretty much whatever the fuck it wants. Assuming it's benevolent and that we tell it to make art, it could very easily make art. For example, it could analyze our culture and art history, read every art theory and criticism book and then proceed to build or utilize a robot arm to paint a painting that just would mimic what a human would do.

Obviously the AI could also create its own artforms or otherwise make something extremely alien.

There are already algorithms that can write music. It's moronic to think that this isn't going to progress further once we have built a superintelligence.

That came later though. Any homeric era texts with references to it?

A lot of things gone all because Plato wanted to create his "perfect" Republic so bad.

>hyuk hyuk no to poets. they should be gone!

I agree with this guy. The Iliad is about the most destructive war the Greeks could ever envisage, the equivalent of a 'Great War' etc, and as such the Iliad is about the brutality of the war on the oikos (alongside the greatness that comes from war).

The Odyssey is definitely about the restoration of the oikos that has been broken @ Troy. You might argue that the Odyssey is allegorical for the restoration of the Greek psyche following such a devastating war.

underrated post.

Plato was a sperg. Spergs has a problem with getting the bigger picture. This is why you don't put spergs in charge of society.

Very inaccessible, you'll probably want to read a translation if you're even asking.

epic cycle which we've lost.

surely he () wasnt asking about the original homeric greek?

Worthless post.

9/10 Would've been 10 if you used capital letters.

Apart from the fact that the AI you describe doesn't exist, and nobody knows how to create it, that's a sterling post, user.

>once we have built a superintelligence
Kek.