Curious about Veeky Forums's take on the ethics of eating meat...

meat tastes better if its murdered

In the final moments when you cut a animals throat its scared out of its mind and its body get filled with so much shit

Test tube meat would be boring without the murder and terror imo

>its body get filled with so much shit
Actually, this does happen, but these things are generally considered bad for flavor and texture, which is why most animal slaughter tends to be a WHOOPS! SURPRISE YOU'RE DEAD! kind of thing

Which is why they make animals look at a nice relaxing television before a giant saw blade cuts their heads off.

I really don't know man. I'm a vegetarian because I believe milk and eggs _can_ be obtained without killing even though they never are. I think all of us should be trying to reduce killing of animals as best we can. For some that means not eating higher animals like cows and pigs but everything else is fair game. For some that means drinking soy milk and supporting the killing of gophers in soy fields. No one is without sin if sin is killing another living being, not even if you're a hardcore Jain.

Just do what you can. Even if it's leaving one animal out of your diet.

>Thoughts on lab-grown meat technology and genetically modified animals

Instead of this we're going to get meat margarine first.

Right now it's mostly just tofu substitutions at the store, but they're working on creating synethic blends that mimic meat. There's fewer compounds then you would think that affect taste. Supposedly they can recreate eggs that taste as good, they just cant mass produce them for 25 cents, yet.

I only eat meat if someone else has bought it and it's going to go "off", or if someone else offers it to me ie I'm a guest in their home, otherwise I don't eat meat and yes it's for animal welfare reasons

As someone who eats a lot of meat, it's clearly unethical and barbaric. Like, if you're a rational, conscientious person, it just becomes obvious once you drop all the flimsy excuses like "humans > animals" or "it's in our nature". If our society can reach a post-scarcity state or we really perfect lab-grown meat, our descendants will almost certainly stop eating animals and then look upon us with shame for all eternity. And vegans are clearly much more ethical, as a group, than carnivores. Frankly, they show the patience of saints by not trying to shove their views down peoples' throats even more than we pretend they do.

And yet despite all this, here I am, with a belly full of pork and chicken broth. I know how wrong it is, but honestly, I don't really care on a personal level. I hope I do one day, but until then, fuck it I guess. I'm clearly not a hero.

Cool.

If I were still a dumb animal with no built up culture or society I would 100% be eating meat as often as I could come across it. Ideally I'd eat meat at the same frequence that animal would have, but I don't fuss over exceeding it

If it helps soothe your guilty conscience:

Clearing enough land to farm enough calories to sustain yourself kills a ton of animals as well. It is efficient to use parts of the plant not suitable for human consumption (in other words most of it) to feed livestock. And it is far safer to eat animal fats, meats, and sinuous fibers to allow the body to maintain and repair itself than try to eat the dozens or more plants required to emulate that.

Let's not get into the fact that there are many simpler organisms that lack any capacity for emotion. We could be arguing about vegetarian or veganism for days.

You misunderstand. Anyone with the proper hunting legalities taken care of can shoot anything the wildlife authorities have proclaimed in season and open game. Any of those legal hunting kills they can do with what they want. Including, as far as I know, sell any part of it as a private transaction. Technically a restaurant can buy any of this game. The illegality lies only in the restaurant serving that hunted meat to a customer, the fault is on the restaurant. I was eating at a local farm-to-table place and asked them just how far and literal they (can) take "farm-to-table". They advertised some elk meat or something, and apparently they're domesticated.

Probably also to the idea of conservation. If you can't monetarily profit off killing game, and it's purely for sport/your own consumption, it's entirely different.

Plus people have already been monetizing game hunting with game ranches, and exotic game ranches

I'm not a fan of factory farming either, but I think the more immediate concern isn't animal welfare but the affect these practices have on the environment. Beef farming is rapidly depleting supplies of fresh water while pork farming is dumping tons of contamination into what's left of it. Not to mention the sheer methane output contributing to climate change from cows alone. For these reasons I mostly eat chicken, and I go for cage-free or free-range whenever possible. For other meats, I just don't buy unless it's free-range.

I think the paradox of veganism is how veganism is meant to be cruelty free because "there's no animals involved" but it causes impoverished countries to suffer because they're growing quinoa instead of crops they can use. Also you need to destroy forests in order to have land to farm from which would only increase the more people went vegan.

Watch a vegan reply to this with a bunch of links going "Wrong.gif"

Addendum: Around here in this rural to semi-rural fly over territory, I already know for a fact the locals sell their hunted meats privately. Get friendly enough with the right hillbillies and mountain folk, probably would be easy to find.

Yeah, "where's the line" and "animals still die for vegetable production" are both true, but I don't think any reasonable vegan would claim to live completely free of cruelty, just with as little of it as possible, which is far less than a carnivore.

As far as nutrition, it's a non-issue in today's world if you have at least a moderate income. The fact that tons of vegans, are, you know, alive is proof of that.

Can I just say that I don't really appreciate the term "carnivore"? I know it literaly means meat eater, but I feel it kind of implies a diet consisting primarily or entirely of meat when the majority of us eat plenty of vegetables and fruits too. You know, like an omnivore.

This. Intensive animal farms are giant, ugly stains on the land. Their effects are directly quantifiable, be it in "gallons of water diverted per day" or "parts per billion of vaporized pig shit inhaled." It's an embarrassment that they're allowed to continue, but it's our fault for voting these hordes of gutless knuckle draggers into office.

You're right, omnivore's the more appropriate term, I just couldn't remember it for some reason.

Being alive and healthy are two different things, as are staying alive longer.

As for cruelty; anyone that has seen young animals mangled in harvesting machinery trembling and clinging to existence should know better. As bad as battery-farming may sound or look bad it is better than the wilds; and damned better than getting mangled and left to die slowly rather than be rapidly-bled out or lobotomized before slaughter depending on practice.

If you really think that it is cruel or sadistic then you should probably be living in an Amish-style community. Modern living has unfortunate costs.

animal agriculture is much much more land intensive.

>but it causes impoverished countries to suffer because they're growing quinoa instead of crops they can use
true but not all vegans eat quinoa

I think it applied to both soy and quinoa but I didn't know that about the animal land intrnsity. It makes more sense.

That's fine, I was speaking kind of broadly since I've heard a lot of elitist vegetarians/vegans online use the term on purpose. Maybe they were just trolls, who knows?

For me, its only meat from wild/undomesticated/non-farmed raised animals (attaining wild boar bacon is difficult)
but I will forgo the aforementioned stipulation if its a special occasion like this restaurant that specializes in Duck which I'm planning a date for

Is that Chicago's Duck Inn? Get the cheese curds. Wew lad.

>Imagine being a clone for the sole purpose of being eaten
It's barely, if at all, any more horrifying than the thought of being bred and existing solely to be eaten.

If the son of God can die for my sins, then a cow dying for my burger is a bit of a drop in the bucket.

Is this a 'go dog?

I really don't mind. I really don't mean to sound edgy by saying that suffering is a part of existence, and if any other carnivores could, they would put us (as well as other herbivores) through the same things. Maybe even worse.

There's a lot of mouths to feed in the world.

I try to avoid pork, i think pigs are especially intelligent so there's some funky ethical lines i draw with that. It's not a firm rule though
I'd totally eat like, horse meat, though. to me that's on the same level as beef.

Only eat it, after you killed it, unless its better still living then have at it

The lord our god gave us dominion over the animals so there is nothing wrong with using them for sustenance

Before you can eat wildboar that you have hunted yourself here you have to send in a sample so they can check for diseases. Until then it stays frozen.
Doesn't seem that crazy to me.

As long as you are being responsible to your own body and its health then that's no problem

>Before there were cars everywhere horses were seen more as tools than pleasure objects
I know what you meant by this, but you know where my mind went when I read it.

You seem to be misunderstanding something

selling big game meat is illegal in almost all circumstances

you can take a bag of deer meat or w/e and go down to the local farmers market and barter it for some fruit or some shit

but as far as taking money for a deer you shot, that is illegal. You can sell the antlers and the pelt but that's it

Damn you sound jewish

You must be to behave so divorced from the earth, it must be lame knowing all that you know

dude if you go to the hood and get friendly with let's call it urban people, you could probably find all sorts of drugs in no time

> shit is still illegal

do people still do it? Fuck yeah they do, doesn't change the legality of it tho

You should probably look at what cage-free and free-range means in the industry. If you really want free range chickens you'll have to raise them yourself or get them from a friend that does.

A huge plot point of Cloud Atlas is that clones eat other old, retired clones without knowing it.

will try
yup

I refuse halal for the same reasons, it really is totally barbaric

You can raise animals on land unsuitable for crops though, such as rocky/alkaline/acid soil

Go back to pol you fucking moron, what you are saying is so wrong it doesnt even deserve my time to disprove it

If you're a vegan, eat all the veggies you want. If you love meat, eat the shit out of some steaks. Live Life!

Eat what makes you happy, even if it takes 20 years off your life.

My grandpa lived until age 93. From age 70 to 93, he just wished he was dead and could join his late wife. Most of his friends passed on. He was unable to move, shit, pee, or shower by himself. He had no dignity left and was constantly verbally disrespected by state assigned caretakers. He just wanted to die.

It was the saddest thing I've ever seen.

Being a vegan just so you can suffer alone for 20 years before you die is like living in a nightmare.

Holy fuck racist much?

Fuck off back to your containment board you bitch

>Being a vegan just so you can suffer alone for 20 years before you die is like living in a nightmare.

This hits very very close to home for me.

Basically this is what happened with my father. He's only in his ealy 70's but my mother passed early, and most of his friends passed.

My father has survived through 2 world wars, Vietnam, and so much in his life. To watch him wither away sad, lonely, and withing to die is.... it's just heart breaking.

I really don't understand why people really want to sacrifice their happy, lively years just so they can be lonely vegetables in their 80s or 90s.

>My grandpa lived until age 93. From age 70 to 93, he just wished he was dead and could join his late wife. Most of his friends passed on. He was unable to move, shit, pee, or shower by himself. He had no dignity left and was constantly verbally disrespected by state assigned caretakers. He just wanted to die.

Yeah but he lived to 93. That's the whole point of life right? Sacrifice happiness just to squeeze out a few sad, painful years at the end?

>Will you eat some animal species but not others?
I try to stick to sustainable fish and I'm reducing my beef intake primarily because of climate change, that's about it though.

Never thought about this shit at all until I married a vegetarian and started reading up on the meat industry. I can't ever eat any meat again. Never thought it would happen to me but it seems disgusting to me now.

>hypocrisies of veganism
makes me want to strangle people but I rarely encounter outspoken ones in person. Went on tour with a vegan kid and he wouldn't shut the fuck up. Basically had a breakdown in the Costco cheese aisle. It was pathetic. The constant moral high road shit until I asked him if he used any medicines (tested on animals) then suddenly veganism is about "doing what you can" and not absolute moral purity.

If growing quinoa was harmful to third world countries they wouldn't do it. They grow cash crops so that they can buy staple goods which is more efficient and more secure than growing them themselves.

>he just wished he was dead and could join his late wife

No, he didn't. If he actually wished he was dead he would have found a way to kill himself.

You can PLACE animals on such land. In order to RAISE them you'd have to bring in massive amounts of feed from other, more arable places. And the ten percent law of food chains tells us that the same arable land could meet human dietary needs many times over if we ate the crops directly instead of turning them into cows. Land use for animal ag is pretty ridiculous.

What about the field animals who are killed when edible plants are harvested?
Vegans just consider that par the course from what I've gathered, just like medicine use and purchasing pet food.

I love meat.
I am also appalled at the current state of most meat production. Not only from the animal rights perspective, but more importantly because it fucking sucks. Industrialization of food production makes food cheap and widely accessible but it has fucked over the quality and flavor of the product. (That applies to most crops as well).

Thankfully there are practical solutions:
-hunting/fishing
-raising your own animals (I raise rabbits and chickens)
-old-school small farm raised heritage breed meat is available. And thanks to the internet it's easier than ever to find and mail order. And a lot of the time it's surprisingly economical. For example, Benton's charges about $70 for a 15-lb ham, properly slow-cured and smoked the old fashioned way. Even with shipping factored in that's less expensive than most deli ham.

I do eat meat, but it's in relatively small amounts and always the highest possible quality I can find. I'd rather have a small portion of mouthgasmic meat than a fuckhuge portion of nearly flavorless factory-farmed shit.

>My grandpa lived until age 93. From age 70 to 93, he just wished he was dead and could join his late wife. Most of his friends passed on. He was unable to move, shit, pee, or shower by himself. He had no dignity left and was constantly verbally disrespected by state assigned caretakers. He just wanted to die.
>It was the saddest thing I've ever seen.
>Being a vegan just so you can suffer alone for 20 years before you die is like living in a nightmare.

Agreed. If you love veggies, more power to you.

But if you have to FORCE or convince yourself to be vegan, then you're going to be miserable and live a miserable life.

I guess you get what you deserve.

>I really don't understand why people really want to sacrifice their happy, lively years just so they can be lonely vegetables in their 80s or 90s.

I don't think most Vegans have actually thought it through. They're just joining the bandwagon to be trendy.

>Applying moral and ethical standards to beings with neither moral nor ethical capacity
>Shiggy diggy doo

>he would have found a way to kill himself

Obviously, you are ignorant and not a religious so this is over your head.

But no, most faithful people don't kill themselves. That's why they wish for God to end it for them.

My grandfater's prayers in his last years in life was literally for God to "take him" so he can end his misery and join his family again.

I don't care, I'm an egoist. I can buy meat from a store just as easily as I can buy potatoes, it tastes delicious, and there are no negative repurcussions for me for doing so. To apply arbitrary restrictions about it seems ridiculous to me.

>would cause starvation in the third world.
If they'd put more effort in durable production instead of multiplying at their ridiculous rates, then maybe they wouldn't starve.

>old-school small farm raised heritage breed meat is available
How do you parse the real thing from the swarm of outwardly identical hipster meme farms? And that's not to say hipster meme farms can't have great products, but I absolutely get the feeling I'm being done over when I start researching small operations. Should I join a co-op?

Things like this are why I feel bad for religious people. Spending two decades in miserable old age for no reason, against all logic and impulse.

>Obviously, you are ignorant
Yes, that's true. Nobody mentioned he was religious until just now.

I just use google to search for farms then look at pics of their operation. I'm sure a lot of their business is hipsters, and I don't really care about that. I look at pictures of their meat so I can see how it looks compared to supermarket meat. I'm looking at the amount of fat, marbling, the color of the meat, etc. I also look at photos/videos of their operation to see what kind of conditions the animals are raised in and what kind of diet they get. The diet is the big one for me because that's what's most important for flavor. Industrial feed is a no-no. Acutal veggies and scraps is good. So is having a lot of space so the animals can forage foods on their own.

One of the things I've noticed is that the legit farms are often out of stock. If they always have meat on hand that's a bad sign (or you got lucky and contacted them at just the right time). If you talk to them and they say they don't have any pigs for slaughter just yet but they will in a month that's a good sign. And if at all possible actually visit the farm (assuming it's somewhat local).

There are also sources that specialize in reselling products like this. D'Artagan isn't bad, though a bit pricey sometimes. The best deal going is to find a farm and buy the whole animal, or as close to the whole animal as you can. I buy half whole hogs then butcher them myself.

My fault. Not meant to be argumentative.

By all means, if you want to be vegan be vegan.

But just realize you're sacrificing your happiness, health, and well being (few vegans are stable & happy) for something you might not have wanted in the first place.

All because some other vegans told you it's the cool thing to do.

>Meat is fucking delicious. Screw 'ethics'. Fucking autistic philosophical circle jerk.

Why screw ethics?

Ethically we are animals. Ethically, it is our given right (by mother nature) to eat animals to survive.

Just because some dumb sheltered white kids don't realize we're animals doesn't mean they're right and 100,000 years of natural evolution is wrong.

A couple other things:
In my experience you can often get truly free-ranged eggs from little mom-n-pop shops. Or if you live in a somewhat rural area just ask around. Someone somewhere is raising chickens and has a surplus of eggs.

Asian markets are great places to buy chicken. The chickens they tend to carry are bred for flavor not massive size. They are often called "Buddhist chicken" or "Vikon". These are much closer to a heritage breed bird. Expect less breast meat than a supermarket chicken but much more flavor. They cost about double what a factory farmed chicken costs. Usually sold head-and-feet still on, which is fucking awesome for making stock or a sauce to serve with your chicken.

Your argument is a naturalistic fallacy. Not that I necessarily disagree with eating meat but humans have also murdered each other for thousands of years and most would not consider that ethical. Personally I think it is ok to kill but not to torture animals because all animals will die anyway.

> Thoughts on lab-grown meat technology
Utterly retarded. The only people who might ever eat that shit are pseudovegan animal activists, who are also utterly retarded.

Until companies develop synthetic or vat-grown meat that compares to animal meat and that can be produced cheaper than farmed meat, meat harvesting should and will continue.

Vegans should go into/support food science and technology desu. Moral suasion is not going to work.

I think that eventually lab-grown meat will become economically viable. Once the technology becomes more advanced it will surely be more efficient than raising animals for food.

The downside I fear is that like with any other industrialized agriculture (Factory farming, monoculture crops, modern farming, GMOs) there will be a massive tradeoff of quality for price. The focus will be on "cheaper" and nobody will give a crap about flavor. That's the problem I fear.

I would happily eat artifically grown meat if it tastes good. But I don't think that's going to happen. I think it's going to be bland lowest-common-denominator shit just like factory farmed meat or crops are. The market favors price over quality so that's where the producers will follow.

95% of the world's population would be happy eating synthetic chicken at a great price if they couldn't tell the difference from farmed, and if it had comparable nutrients and safety. A product like that is certainly within the realm of human science and engineering in the near term, and the pace of tech progress is only expected to speed up with advanced AI coming on line.

Within 20-30 years I could imagine privately farmed and butchered meat being a luxury only the wealthy partake in. Like that movie about soylent green where a package of real strawberries costs 300 credits or whatever.

I agree that it's *possible* but I don't think the people behind it will bother to focus on the quality.

We know this empirically. GMO crops, factory farmed meat, etc, all are nowhere near as tasty as the "old fashioned" methods that they replace. But they are cheaper. And in general that's what the market wants.

There is a massive difference between, say, factory farmed chicken and traditionally raised. There's also a massive difference between supermarket tomatoes and the ones from your grandma's garden. Yet most people don't give a shit. They happily eat it even though it's nowhere near as good.

Only these are acceptable:
>hunt with sustainability & conservation in mind
>raise your own livestock for meat
>lab grown meat
>vegetarian/vegan
Anything else is bad for animals, bad for the environment, and ultimately bad for you. It's wrong & immoral on so many levels

What about small old-school farming operations where the animals are truly free-ranged and live a life of luxury until they are one day slaughtered?

Cucks. Hate when people like you (prob vegan as well) pretend to be martyrs, or virtue signal, or whatever you are trying to do. You are not saving the planet, you are not eating healthier. You are delusional. If you truly wanted to save the environment/world you would be advocating for the genocide of China, because that is where nearly all pollution is from. Eating some greens and giving yourself a pat on the back is the most brainlet pleb thought process imaginable. You do not care about the planet enough to take action, you just want people to think you're a good, hip, smart person. Your actions do not even have an impact, even if all of North America went vegan, no impact. Literally a complete waste of time and money. I bet you also worship al-gore and other scam artists who monetize off your 80 IQ.

>He's only in his ealy 70's
>survived 2 world wars

>2017 - 74 = 1943
>1943
>2 world wars

>>>>>>>>>>American """""""education"""""""

my meat science prof said he likes halal better than kosher because the list of requirements for kosher is so much stricter. out of, say, 10 butchered steers, fewer would be eligible to be called kosher because at some point they fucked up hitting all the points on their checklist. halal is less strict and therefore less wasteful.

couldn't tell you myself since i haven't gotten that deep into it. we only slaughtered a single steer for class which ended up not being bad at all. i've seen a lot of animals rounded up for veterinary work and it was the exact same stress level for the steer pre-slaughter.

one of the big tenets of meat production is that stressed, sick animals create inferior product. it's in a producer's best interest to keep animals calm and healthy right up until they bolt gun them.

i'm okay with eating meat and other animal products because i just don't believe animals are equal to humans. i'm saying this with a pretty extensive background working with animals (wildlife rehab, zookeeping, and now i'm learning agriculture).

i'm a big supporter of animal welfare, i do think we should take the best care of them that we can. death should be as quick, with as little fear and pain as possible. not animal rights, though. they're not people.

i also support hunting as a tool for conservation (e.g. license money, supporting local economies IF it's not horribly corrupt) and population control (super important in species like white tailed deer and feral hogs)

but would i eat science meat? fuck yeah i would

>What about small old-school farming operations where the animals are truly free-ranged and live a life of luxury until they are one day slaughtered?

Doesn't matter. You kill an animal, you are a piece of shit murderer and should be fed animals.

if you buy it eat vegan if you hunt it just eat anything fucking edible
i have been thinking about this for most of my life and this is the only logical conclusion

If it doesn't serve any purpose to humans other than food, then eat it. The only animals I wouldn't eat are dog or cat, but that's only if I had choice of another food. In the end, I would eat them. I could maybe eat horse but something feels wrong to eat something that could be put to a better purpose.

I guess as long as it can't do anything else, then it can be eaten. Feels like a waste to consume something that can offer repeated results.

What do you think happens to animals, dude? Like, in nature and shit? You think they're out there dying of old age surrounded by loved ones?

>and should be fed animals
I feed myself animals on a regular basis, so I guess I'm doing okay.

The same people who dont like GMO stuff love the idea of lab grown meat

>it is far safer to eat animal fats, meats, and sinuous fibers to allow the body to maintain and repair itself than try to eat the dozens or more plants required to emulate that.

You're an idiot

I'm conflicted mainly due to how animals are raised and killed.

>should be fed animals
So if I kill them I should eat them? Sounds good to me.

this
>animals raised for food is cruel and slavery and makes my feefees hurt
>electronics & clothes made by actual slaves and child labour is just fine

Acknowledgeding the pain of the animal is so much less disrespect than eating mass produced shit and pretending it's not even from an animal