Msg

It's a crutch that crippled cooks use to attempt to add flavor by bypassing important steps in cooking that are designed to highlight the flavor of the wholesome ingredients. Instead they use a petroleum manufactured chemical with unknown chemical byproducts that aren't required to be disclosed. Why do you think it's used at shit restaurants and nowhere else? Shit restaurants hire shit cooks. MSG cucks are like fatasses who use genes as an excuse for being fat.

oh boy, i love e621

What does furry porn have to do with MSG?

...

Does MSG give anyone else weird dreams? I've never noticed any of the supposed physical effects (tingling extremities, etc) but my dreams seem to be particularly vivid or strange after I eat a lot of it.

It doesn't, you wouldn't have even thought of that without reading it

Without reading what?

Season to taste but remember you can always add more but you can't take less out

Is that a challenge?

>source: my ass
crutches aren't specific to msg, you should be arguing against crutches instead. It doesn't make msg bad, it has a place in some dishes that you don't want to impart other flavors into.

I'm in the same boat. I have MSG but no clue what to do with it. Does it just taste like salt without sodium or something? Could I just put MSG on fries instead of some salt? Or is its purpose different? I forgot I even had it for a long time. What are the best things to use it on? Rice and sauces or something?

melatonin does that to me. i know, different beasts.. but it is certainly possible for something to give you vivid or weird dreams.

Tobacco products cause that for me. Every one is different I guess.

>Why would I use it over table salt?
msg has 60% less sodium than salt, and a little bit adds lots of flavor. I use msg instead of adding salt.

>crutches aren't specific to msg
Agreed

>you should be arguing against crutches instead.
This is an MSG thread. It would be out of place to discuss other crutches here.

>I add vinegar instead of using sugar
That's how retarded you sound.
MSG is savory aka umami flavor. It's not a substitute for salt. They are different flavors altogether.

MSG is the simplest form of the savory aka umami flavor:
Salty = salt
Sweet = sugar
Sour = acid (vinegar)
Savory = MSG

You use it when you want to add a savory flavor. It's a shortcut replacement for things you'd normally use for that flavor, like hard cheeses, the fond left over from cooking meat, fermented sauces like dobanjuang or douchi, etc. You use it when you want to add a savory or "meaty" sort of taste but are too lazy to use better sources of that flavor.

>msg is not a substitute for salt.
eh? msg is 40% sodium. When it is added to a dish, it breaks down into sodium and glutamate.

The sodium contributes no flavor. It's just there for the ride. MSG tastes like the glutamate ion. Table salt tastes like chloride ion. Those two are totally different flavors. Salty does not taste like savory and vice versa.

If you're happy with the change in flavor then that's fine, go for it. But it's silly to suggest that they are interchangeable because their flavors are different.

you can tell when someone goes overboard with it for sure but it can be used well in moderation. just like with table salt

I agree, but using a more natural source of the glutamate ion usually tastes a lot better because it's not one-dimensional like MSG is. Using, say, soy sauce, douchi, dobanjiang, tienmenjiang, fish sauce, or similar provides a lot more flavor compared to using granular MSG.

msg tastes pretty salty to me. table salt also dissolves in water, separating into sodium and chloride atoms. just like msg separates. I think you are an overly aggressive idiot.

>table salt also dissolves in water, separating into sodium and chloride atoms. just like msg separates.

What does that have to do with anything? Sugar also dissolves in water. Does that mean sugar is the same thing too?

>>I think you are an overly aggressive idiot.
...this coming from the person who can't differentiate "salty" from "savory/umami"

Do you have the same problem distinguishing sour from sweet too, user? Do you think that sugar makes a good substitute for vinegar?

ur bonkers m8.

This is a common misconception; sugar doesn't dissolve in water. It turns into liquid phase when put in water.

So what happens to the liquid phase? Does it precipitate out? Float? Or does *it* then dissolve?

I wouldn't worry about him user. This is the guy who flips his shit if sushi is ever touched by gaijin

Liquid phase would be a misnomer. The polar h20 attracts the polar sucrose and forms bonds on a molecule-molecule scale. This breaks the weaker bonds between the sucrose molecules and 'encapsulates' the sucrose. Liquid sucrose still has intermolecular bonds, they are just looser because of the heat. Dissolved sucrose would be closer to a gaseous state, but that would be a stupid way to refer to it when 'dissolved,' exists.

that's right, you shouldn't have posted at all because your argument is that crutches are bad and your tin foil shit is unsourced.

Who said anything about tinfoil beliefs?
MSG isn't bad because of some silly tinfoil hat health scare--that's bullshit.

MSG is bad because it's not as tasty as the whole ingredients it tries to replace.

that's still a crutch argument, why don't you fags ever say the same thing about other refined ingredients?

your mouth cannot tell the difference between naturally occurring glutmates and refined. the other flavors you are tasting are imparted from the glutamate rich ingredients you're adding. What if I don't want to impart those flavors?

>why don't you fags ever say the same thing about other refined ingredients?

I often say the same about other refined ingredients. But those threads simply don't come up as often. The same concept applies to other things: using naturally salty foods like fish sauce, hard cheese, or country ham provides more flavor than using plain salt. Using sweet fruits, honey, molasses, or nectar is more flavorful than refined sugar. And so on.

>> the other flavors you are tasting are imparted from the glutamate rich ingredients you're adding.
Yes, that's the point.

>>What if I don't want to impart those flavors?
Then use MSG, I guess. I just can't think of any situation in which I wouldn't want to add extra flavor beyond glutamates alone. In my experience there is always a better choice than plain MSG. Can you give an example of when you want to add just glutamates but not any other flavor?

wow an actual parrot

So let's say my ramen cup o noodles..as the cheapest example..they have crap loads of salt but the chicken or beef flavor isn't really there. It seems kind of weak on flavor. Could I just add in like 1/2 teaspoon of MSG in that instance and make the flavor come alive and stronger? Is that what you're saying? (just using ramen because it's an easy example that most have tried)

you can't just add msg to anything and make it taste savory, it enhances existing savory flavor.
Instant ramen already has msg in it

>you can't just add msg to anything and make it taste savory, it enhances existing savory flavor.
Sure you can. MSG is literally the simplest possible form of the savory flavor. It is to savory what sugar is to sweet.

Your instant ramen is already loaded with MSG.
If you want it to taste like beef or chicken then you need to add beef or chicken.

That's why we're saying that MSG is a crutch, and instant noodles are a perfect example of it. They taste salty as fuck but they don't taste very "meaty" (or seafoody in the case of seafood flavors). That's because they're skimping out and using MSG instead of more meat or fish ingredients. If you want your chicken ramen to taste more chickeny then add chicken, or make it using good chicken stock instead of water plus the flavoring packet.

I never understood the MSG hate
Why is it "bad" or worse than any of the array of shit Americans already load into their food?

Finally I think I'm starting to understand. Thank you

It's not dangerous or toxic or anything like that.

But like most shortcuts it doesn't taste as good as the ingredients it replaces. We need fewer shortcuts that throw away flavor in exchange for low price & convenience, not more of them.

I'm pretty sure most people hate MSG for the same reason as "hating gluten" fad.

Yeah, there are plenty of people who are convinced that MSG causes headaches or other such nonsense.

My grandma once told me the MSG hate is just coded racism against us Chinese people
She also don't like Black people, so I dunno

general rule of thumb is 1/2 tsp MSG per pound of dry veggies and 3/4 tsp per pound of meat

>Look mom, I totally owned someone on this hacker site called Veeky Forums

It often applies to simpler dishes. Salt, sugar, and msg can enhance the flavor of single ingredients, ie meats, vegetables, fruits without changing the flavor.

I use it often in a few specific ground meat dishes. pelmeni is one, you could use dry aged meat here to add savoriness but it would not be as effective and you'd still need to add salt (dry aging can also add some funky notes that may not be desirable). same goes for burgers. In many situations where you'd normally season with salt, you can sub some salt for msg.

your examples of "naturally" salty foods are not naturally salty, they have salt added to them when they are made. Refined ingredients exist because human palates evolved to desire more of the same flavor.

There's no reason you can't season some complex dishes with msg as well. why does it have to be one or the other?

a good ramen broth is still seasoned with salt, msg can be added as well.

Also, watch CookingInRussia's videos, he uses msg appropriately, it isn't needed all the time.

>My grandma once told me the MSG hate is just coded racism against us Chinese people

Yeah... there is a reason why we Chinese have some of the highest Hypertension rates in the entire world.

>a good ramen broth is still seasoned with salt, msg can be added as well.

Sure. But that's missing the point. You seem to be dwelling on sodium content and/or salt. That's missing the point.

The reason why cheap instant ramen doesn't taste very meaty is because they have subbed out the relatively expensive meat ingredients for cheaper MSG. The idea behind adding meat or proper stock instead has nothing to do with changing the sodium content. Rather you use meat (or good stock) because it has more of the meaty flavor than MSG does.

no it is not missing the point. You're implying that msg can only be used as a crutch. It can still improve a good ramen broth. nothing to do with the sodium content. Just because an ingredient is often used as a crutch doesn't mean that is it's only purpose.

also, msg enhances the meaty flavor, it does not taste meaty on it's own.

polarized propaganda article from the 1980s that echos to today, Its name sounds intimidating and synthetic to common folk.

>You're implying that msg can only be used as a crutch

Not at all. I was giving a specific example of how MSG is used as a crutch. Instant ramen is a perfect example of how using MSG as a crutch sucks compared to using more meat in the recipe, as user also noticed. MSG only tastes plenty salty and savory but it lacks the "meat" flavor of chicken, beef, etc.

>> It can still improve a good ramen broth
Sure it can. But that's a different point altogether. Instant ramen is an example of how MSG alone is insufficient for good flavor. It's an example of how MSG is usually a shitty crutch. Just because other uses might exist doesn't mean instant ramen isn't a great example of a poor use of MSG.

As for MSG in ramen broth, I'd argue that natural sources of glutamates are better. If your broth is fish-based you'd have better flavor using more konbu or katsuobushi. If your broth is meat-based then you'd get better flavor using, say, cured ham or by browning your poultry before making the stock.

Nice Google profile pic

Is this you? you've only said MSG is crutch and nothing else which is why I assume I you think it is only a crutch.

>msg alone is not sufficient for good flavor
that's right, the low quality broth powder in instant ramen can only be enhanced so much by msg and salt. You implied that instant ramen uses msg instead of meats which is wrong, it uses shitty broth powder instead of high quality meat broth.

msg is not flavoring the ramen, it is enhancing the little flavor the broth powder has.

you can still add msg on top of all those methods. katsuboshi (if added on top of what is already in the dashi) and cured ham will strong flavors that change the ramen a lot. If you want the meats/broth in high quality ramen to simply taste meatier, add msg.

assuming both use dashi...high quality ramen broth seasoned with salt and msg > high quality ramen broth seasoned with salt only.

You cannot tell the difference between naturally occurring glutamates and refined, they are the same. the difference is the ingredients/flavors they are enhancing.

Yes, I was 9416459. I dunno about the other number; I can't even find that post. I don't think MSG is always a crutch. But I do think that 95% of the time it is.

>You implied that instant ramen uses msg instead of meats which is wrong, it uses shitty broth powder instead of high quality meat broth.
However you want to word it user, those are both pretty much the same thing. There's not enough meat and there is MSG and salt instead. Same problem as cheap bullion cubes, really. Salt and MSG are cheaper than meat so with low-end products like these you get the MSG crutch instead of more (or any) meat.

>>You cannot tell the difference between naturally occurring glutamates and refined
Agreed. But you can tell the difference between MSG only vs. other sources of gutamate which contain additional flavors, just as how you can tell the difference between refined sugar and something like honey.

>>the difference is the ingredients/flavors they are enhancing.
MSG doesn't "enhance" a flavor. It adds "savory". Why add savory alone when you can add savory plus other flavors that are a good match for the finished dish?

>If you want the meats/broth in high quality ramen to simply taste meatier, add msg

Why not just add more meat or bones when making the broth? That way you not only get a better meatier flavor, but you also get more gelatin for a superior texture.

>stock powder and msg are the same thing
wrong, read the ingredient label.

both high quality ramen and instant will have a ton of salt and msg(naturally occurring or not). glutmates and salt are not there in place of meat in instant ramen.
>You can tell the difference between MSG only vs other sources of glutamate.
Obviously, but you cannot add a ton of kombu or katsuoboshi to keep adding umami, eventually the flavors will overpower. At the end of the day, regardless of how your making the ramen, if you season with salt you can also add msg. It will only improve it to an extent.
>Why not just add more meat
you can, in the end though you're still going to salt it and there's no reason not to add msg as well.

MSG IS AN ENHANCER, it does not taste savory on its own. A simple google search will tell you this. This is a waste of time if you cannot grasp this simple concept.

>MSG is bad because I think it is
>MSG is cheating because it makes food taste better

i think it tastes like fried chicken honestly

a lot of people have different descriptions but yeah it tastes sort of like that to me but very mild.

>>stock powder and msg are the same thing
>wrong, read the ingredient label.
That wasn't my claim. My point was that:
>>MSG instead of meat
is pretty much the same as
>>Shitty broth powder instead of high quality meat broth

>> glutmates and salt are not there in place of meat in instant ramen.
Sure they are. Their purpose is to give a meat-like flavor without using actual meat (or fish).

>>but you cannot add a ton of kombu or katsuoboshi to keep adding umami
Sure you can. The classic rule for Japanese high class cooking is to put so much katsuobushi in your dashi that you could stand up a pair of cooking chopsticks in it. That's a fuck of a lot more than most recipes would suggest. I've done it, and it tastes fucking amazing--though it is expensive so it's not all that practical. You see this a lot on the old Iron Chef show (the Japanese one that was dubbed on Food Network).

>>MSG IS AN ENHANCER
Stop parroting the marketing tagline on a bottle of Accent. It's simply incorrect. Glutamate is the purest form of the savory/umami flavor. There are peer-reviewed scientific papers about this.

See:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4515277/

flavourjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2044-7248-4-13

>>This is a waste of time if you cannot grasp this simple concept.
Screaming that the world is flat doesn't make it true, user. You've gotten a piece of wrong information in your head and you keep parroting it instead of educating yourself. Nothing sadder than willful ignorance.

Umami aka savory is a distinct taste, like sour, sweet, bitter, etc. "Muh flavor enhancer" is just as silly as parroting "sear the meat to seal in the juices".

I also tried MSG for the first time today. It makes everything taste like cheap chinese takeaway desu.

>Msg instead of meat is the same as shit broth instead of good broth
wrong again. the only similarity between instant ramen and high quality is that they both contain a lot of salt and glutamates. High quality ramen usually contains more per serving actually. Ask yourself, what is the meat replacing if high quality ramen also has a ton of glutamates in it? industrial stock powder, there are powdered spices and even "powdered beef" in instant ramen.
>you can put a ton of katsuoboshi in ramen
yeah but we're talking about adding savory here, you're not only adding umami. katsuoboshi introduces a lot of other flavors that may not be desirable to everyone which is why a lot of ramen shops use typical amounts in their dashi. Doesn't matter of it's good or not, it changes the product into something else. If you want a ramen that isn't dominated by smoked fish flavor, you'd only be able to add so much katsuoboshi.

I'm not arguing that umami isn't a flavor. MSG enhances or complements other flavors just like salt. It is hard to argue this because savory is the closest word to umami in english and I don't necessarily consider pure msg on it's own to taste savory but that depends on your idea of savory. Pure msg tastes very mild to me and I wouldn't use it on its own to flavor anything.

when you add salt/msg to stock, the flavors of the ingredients become much more pronounced. In this situation it is enhancing.

>Ask yourself, what is the meat replacing if high quality ramen also has a ton of glutamates in it?
The meat doesn't replace anything. Good ramen contains a meat/bone based broth. Shitty ramen contains a cheap industrial flavoring instead, usually based on MSG and salt.

Sure, salt and glutamates are both present in the good stuff too. It's not so much about what's in the good stuff, but rather what the cheap stuff is lacking. And the cheap stuff usually lacks gelatin and the other flavors meat contains other than just glutamates.

Cheap ramen = mostly salt + MSG, not much else. Maybe a tiny bit of "meat powder".
Good ramen =lots of gelatin and flavors extracted from meat and vegetables.

>>katsuoboshi introduces a lot of other flavors that may not be desirable to everyone
My point his those other flavors usually are desirable to most people. I'm sure you could find a special snowflake somewhere that doesn't like it but that would be atypical.

Meat powder is replacing meat, as much as you don't want to admit it. There's not a lot of it in cheap ramen because it's concentrated powder. You can't directly compare ingredient amounts between instant and real ramen because one is dehydrated. The point was that msg/salt in instant ramen is not used as a replacement for meat. And yes of course there are more, better ingredients in real ramen.

>katsuoboshi flavor is desirable
doesn't matter though because my point was that after a certain point you cannot use it the same way as msg because of all the other flavors it contains. keep adding katsuoboshi and you won't taste anything else after a certain point. same applies to parmesan and or any other glutamate rich ingredient. they cannot be used freely like refined ingredients, and their imparted flavors can change a dish into something it is not supposed to be.
all I'm trying to say is that no matter how low or high quality the ramen is, you can still add msg to it without introducing other flavors. If you're going to salt it, you can use msg as well.

you taste the sodium ion, not the chloride

cup noodles are already full of msg. even if it says no msg on the label they sneak it in as hydrolyzed soy protein or autolyzed yeast extract.

is salt a crutch too?

You're own post, duh! Obviously the user who said that wouldn't have known that if he hadn't read the wikipedia page on self-fulfilling prophecy after he posted.

It's derived from kelp... Don't any of you know that?

I'm allergic to MSG! *drinks concentrate high fructose corn syrup, boycotts water and complains about headaches*

Asian grandparents?

Are Asian grandparents stricter than Asian parents?

Not really. They are quite lax as long as you get married by 25 years old you will forever be fat to your eyes.

>you taste the sodium ion, not the chloride

Nope. That's why potassium chloride is sold as a salt substitute for people who need to restrict their sodium intake.

Most of the time, yes. Your food will taste better if you add other ingredients which happen to be salty rather than using refined salt.

Same with using more full-flavored sweeteners like honey or molasses instead of refined sugar.

Uh, I'm from some third world country and my mom said her mom used to drink MSG thinking it was healthy and it gave her Alzheimer. You might want to avoid that and aspartame.

Lol, what was the liquid she mixed it with, roundup?

You taste the potassium ion there.

There is a lot wrong with using MSG. Ever heard of excitotoxicity induced neuron death?
Using this stuff on a normal basis can lead to neuro degenerative diseases. Glutamate is a neurotransmitter and when there is an excess amount in the brain it can literally excite the neurons to death.
>But muh FDA approved studies!!
Those food ""science"" studies are anything but thorough and conclusive. There are studies that CONCLUSIVELY show the effects of MSG but they don't get wide public exposure because they don't fit the current "food science" worldview

If this were true, you'd expect potassium chloride to taste identical to regular salt, but if you've ever tasted it it should be clear that it doesn't. The reason you can taste salty (i.e. sodium ions) in the first place is because you've evolved to seek out sources of sodium (like meat) since sodium is an electrolyte you need to live. You don't particularly need chloride, so you don't have receptors for it.

MSG is about 1/3 sodium, so in terms of flavor if 1 gram of salt equals 100% salty, then 1 gram of MSG equals 33% salty and 67% umami.

Well, hardly any of it gets to the brain anyway. Got any links to studies?

>source: my ass

salt is an ionic crystal, it separates into ions upon dissolving, sugar is a carbohydrate, dissolving it just surrounds it with water, you fucking idiot

>eating a known excitotoxin