Why do you guys hate CS majors so much. I was a CS major but I don't think I'm that big of a brainlet...

12 years of training doing what we were doing anyway. I paid my way through school by working and getting tuition reimbursement from the hospital I now work at. I literally almost graduated debt free. The only "downside" to this is that I had not sign a contract stating I'll work at this hospital for 20 years (15 more). It was the hospital I did my residency at, so literally I just received my degree, received a way raise and continued doong what I was doing every day anyway. It's not like my life was on standstill while I was in school. I was still working and progressing. Fact of the matter is, you don't make more money than me. Plus, there's qt nurses running around in scrubs and nothing makes women wet like introducing yourself as Dr.(Last name). Sorry code monkey.

Machine learning based diagnoses will make you obsolete, and the steady hand of AI guided surgery machines will make you organic units a health hazard to patients. Enjoy it while it lasts

>my program was great and highly related to jobs

You got a trade school degree at university prices. CS courses shouldn't be "highly related to jobs".

Post the curriculum. From the sounds of it, I bet you had no advanced math courses and several courses on programming, OOP, webdev, phonedev, gamedev, system programmign, database, and SE.

They hate us cause they ain't us.
They wish they could play with Integer rings all day long, but they have to work with stinky Reals.

You're an idiot, those joke courses like OOP, webdev, phonedev and stuff are not related to jobs. My courses were mainly data structures and algorithms and theoretical CS related which is what you need to get good jobs.

There's a really massive dichotomy here between shitty CS jobs and good ones. Shitty ones require those topics you listed. Good ones don't, they require more actual CS knowledge.

And what courses do you consider advanced math for CS?

>you find something easy that I find hard
>you must be a brainlet!

Why must the meme be true every fucking time.

Then why the fuck don't you go do it? An abstract sense of intellectual duty to stay true to your math or mechanical engineering roots despite them paying significantly less than you will make after a good CS program? Give me a break - Veeky Forums is too degenerate to hold up concepts like that

If it's so easy just go do it and make way more money than you do right now

>My courses were mainly data structures and algorithms

This is a freshman level course.

>theoretical CS

Sisper is also freshman level.

This diagram is less than half of a typical CS undergrad. Just as an example, tt has theory of computation as an endpoint of sorts, where in modern curricula it's more of an end-of-first-year start-of-second-year level course.

To be fair, it also has a number of courses that are no longer as relevant today as they were in 1968. Analog computing comes to mind.

>no advanced math courses
Yeah, I'm going to study complex analysis -aka turbo autism III - just because Veeky Forums said I should. I know it is worthless outside schizo department, but that user really dared me to.

Also I didn't find it hard I found it easy and fun. So it's even more paradoxical that you people don't do it. The idea that it's for brainlets yet simultaneously the job market can't hire enough good people because they're all shit, resulting in very high wages compared to every other engineering discipline is absurd

Yeah DS/Algo is definitely just "one course" not a group of related courses user.

Show me one school where sipser is a freshmen level course user

>MONEY MONEY MONEY
>JOBS JOBS JOBS
>You must be retarded if that's not all you care about in life

Sad.

Is CS even worth doing ? Idk can't you just graduate in math and learn programming on your own ?

>learn programming
Fuck off, we're full

I never said it's all I care about in life. I love CS and think it's fun. I'm showing the fact that there are tons of jobs for it and that it pays significantly more money than all traditional engineering jobs, as an explanation for why the argument that it's an easy shit tier degree that you have to be a brainlet to bother getting, doesn't make sense.

If it's so easy and brainlets can do it then the market would reach an equilibrium with too many people doing it, because it's so easy and brainlet level, and wages would fall below those of other supposedly superior STEM majors. But you don't see that happen.

If you have never worked in a medical laboratory your opinion is actually invalid. There are too many human elements to eliminate them completely. We get samples from other nations and they have to be reviewed by a pathologist. If a result comes up with an out of range value, it needs to be reviewed. If a value comes up critical, it needs to be called out to the care provider for the patient. There are things a machine will not be able to do, and someone with a bachelor's in CS doing Java work for eBay's website is not going to replace me. Sorry brutha.

>You will end up being a really shitty programmer. Sure, you can, but you will not be a good software engineer most likely unless you still do a full CS Bachelor's curriculum yourself, along with tons of self study outside the major.

I work people who work with PhD Physicists who now work as Data Scientists and they're retards who can't do shit when it comes to programming because they're not programmers. Their code is shit and they need baby level handholding to write good code.

>doesn't know about analytic combinatorics and its use in the analysis of algorithms
Top brainlet.

>Also I didn't find it hard I found it easy
Then we agree that it isn't challenging.

>So it's even more paradoxical that you people don't do it.
Where did anyone ever say that? All Veeky Forums ever says is to no study CS; not to never get software jobs. Stop making strawmen.

>job market can't hire enough good people because they're all shit, resulting in very high wages compared to every other engineering discipline is absurd
Half the software jobs go to people WITHOUT cs degrees. Many STEM majors DO get software jobs.

>Yeah DS/Algo is definitely just "one course" not a group of related courses user.
No, DS&A is one course (though I've seen it split up into multiple at shitty university) followed by another easy Algorithm Analysis course based on CLRS.

>Show me one school where sipser is a freshmen level course user
All you need is the most basic of basic proof skills to follow it. High schoolers wouldn't find it difficult.

A couple reasons from personal experience (cs minor to accompany math+phys double major)

>Probably 60% of the class were sleepwalking through the courses, didnt care about anything other than their grades and are satisfied to go onto codemonkey life
>At least 20% of the classes were "CS bros" Super cocky MRA types thinking theyre hot shit and superior to everyone (particularly women) because they passed intro object oriented programming
>Another 20% were gamers who never studied but complained about how difficult the classes were and complained about classes involving anything more than trivial syntax
>muh "im gunna create an app and become a millionaire after sleepwalking through my degree" meme

Although my code is always a fucking mess so I cant criticize others too much. Im not an organized person and it shows in my code

>can't you just graduate in math and learn programming on your own

Absolutely. Many employers greatly prefer people of that background.

>Physics PhDs
>Transfer to data science
You work with a bunch of sellouts

>anecdote of a guy that never learned programming stating that he never learned programming
So insightful.

>Then we agree that it isn't challenging.
Or it could mean that I'm smart, but I won't make that claim

>Where did anyone ever say that? All Veeky Forums ever says is to no study CS; not to never get software jobs. Stop making strawmen.
You have to study it to get software jobs, whether it's at a school or not

>Half the software jobs go to people WITHOUT cs degrees. Many STEM majors DO get software jobs.
And they're often shit unless they study supplementary CS material or have a lot of experience to make up for their lack of CS knowledge

How is that an ""anecdote of a guy that never learned programming stating that he never learned programming""?

Green meme arrows don't make you right

Undergrads on here actually think you can get a job in software engineering without a CS degree. I especially feel bad for engiecucks. Sad.

The 99.9% of jobless PhDs need to make money somehow. Being a postdoc your whole life sucks.

Intro to programming courses are easy, just like how first year math courses or in general, first year courses tend to be easy. At my undergrad school, some of the hardest courses you could take in the CS/Math department were theoretical computer science courses (compilers, programming languages, theory of computing) which stopped most of the CS students from graduating.

>And they're often shit unless they study supplementary CS material or have a lot of experience to make up for their lack of CS knowledge
Duh. You're not saying anything not obvious.

Physics majors don't take programming. To program they have to learn. That PhD clearly just looked up a list of instructions and put no more time into it. It doesn't mean that PhDs are incapable of learning CS or find it hard; they just never put the time in it.

>If it's so easy and brainlets can do it then the market would reach an equilibrium with too many people doing it, because it's so easy and brainlet level, and wages would fall below those of other supposedly superior STEM majors. But you don't see that happen.

Have you been living under a rock? That's literally what is currently happening. The bubble is going to pop in a few years.

>"Veeky Forums dissected the CS curricula of top schools"
>image covers a third of the average college's freshman curriculum at best
Argument dismissed.

>t. retard with no real experience in ML

Because they teach you a bunch of useless shit which you won’t apply unless you do research or go into scientific computing (CS major here doing computational physics, friends went into software engineering and web dev and are competing with people who have degrees in math and physics kek)

People have been saying that for many years but even now companies have a hard time hiring good people. There aren't enough good software engineers to hire, just a lot of shitty ones

The market for shit ones will pop, the market for good ones will only grow from here on out as the level of abstraction and applications we have grows further each day

>reading comprehension

>implying companies can tell who is or is not shit

>>Undergrads on here actually think you can get a job in software engineering without a CS degree
>too dumb to google and find out it's true

Definitely a CS major.

Elaborate. I know in advance that if I search the archives, I'll find nothing but this very image and memes that copy it.

They weren't referring to the image dumbass.

But they were saying the same bullshit.

It isn't. You're clearly an undergrad.

>This diagram is less than half of a typical CS undergrad

Some me a CS school that has 3 numerical analysis courses, 2 analysis courses, an abstract algebra course, 2 probability and statistics courses, and separate dedicated courses on formal languages and computability/recursion theory respectively.

>hurr durr, we had one survey so we know it.

Many software developers at top places are mathematicians and physicists, jackass

Everything the image says is true. CS majors are oblivious of their relation to STEM and their shitty knowledge of their own field.

It's true for two reasons:
• half of software engineering is webdev;
• you don't need a CS degree to program a graph density calculator in MATLAB, and social science majors think that's elite programming.

can you recommend what undergrad cs classes are needed for computational physics?

I have cs1&2, data structures, algorithms and parallel processing planned to take. any others?

>Everything the image says is true.
It's not. Was there, everything the image says is the most trivial part of freshman CS.

my CS department allows advanced math courses as CS electives if you want. I did advanced probability and it helped with understanding machine learning. I can advanced statistics courses instead as well

t.graduate CS student

university certifies you in the classes you took(tests), which many employers like

or, you can write your code and upload to github but they are going to give a tougher interview, probably

Here is a top school for CS:
>csd.cs.cmu.edu/academics/undergraduate/requirements
>The following computer science courses are required:
>15-122: Principles of Imperative Computation
>15-150: Principles of Functional Programming
>15-210: Parallel and Sequential Data Structures and Algorithms
>15-213: Introduction to Computer Systems
>15-251: Great Theoretical Ideas in Computer Science
>15-451: Algorithm Design and Analysis

>Algorithms & Complexity Elective (choose one)
-453: Formal Languages, Automata, and Computability
-301: Combinatorics
-484: Graph Theory

>Applications Elective (choose one)
-415: Database Applications
-313: Foundations of Software Engineering
-391: Designing Human-Centered Software

>Logics & Languages Elective (choose one)
-424: Foundations of Cyber-Physical Systems
-300: Basic Logic

>Software Systems Elective (choose one)
-418: Parallel Computer Architecture and Programming
-440: Distributed Systems
-441: Computer Networks

>Mathematics & Probability
>Five mathematics courses are required.
>21-120: Differential and Integral Calculus
>21-122: Integration and Approximation
>15-151: Mathematical Foundations for Computer Science (if not offered, substitute 21-127: Concepts of Mathematics)
>One of the following Linear Algebra courses: 21-241: Matrices and Linear Transformations; 21-242: Matrix Theory
>One of the following Probability courses: 15-359: Probability and Computing; 21-325: Probability; 36-217: Probability Theory and Random Processes; 36-225: Introduction to Probability Theory

You can basically avoid all the hard courses.

What's your idea of advanced math in CS?

a CS degree may as well be a generic liberal arts degree or a general studies degree. you can do pretty much anything you want with it. i have friends from undergrad working as web developers using basically nothing from their degree, working at investment houses doing quant shit, teaching high school math, doing IT and computer plumbing, one is a manager at a fucking warehouse. i'm in a research masters program for polisci now (did a combined masters in cs)

>cs1&2
>2 programming classes before data structure

Your school is shit.

every program has 2 intro programming courses, edgelord. go look at carnegie melons curriculum.
>fundamentals of programming
>principals of functional programming

For CS as a whole, at least one year of math, a bit of physics (mechanics and electronics), numerical analysis, language theory, computer architecture, OOP and FP, λ-calculus, computability, machine learning, databases, parallelizing (including proofs of concurrent algorithms which is my favorite brainlet filter so far), compiler design, type theory, game theory, low-level programming (i.e. assembly and system calls) and networking. You have to be severely delusional to think all that is as easy as merge sort.

Now for the math, you have almost the whole of calc I and parts of calc II, arithmetic, combinatorics, probability theory, formal logic and linear algebra.

Fun story
>go to a week of cs1
>entire class can be done outside of classtime
>no tests at all except final
>dont go a single day the rest of semester
>have almost 100%
>show up for the final
>argue with prof (who is actually a grad student) for 20min that im in the class, he almost doesnt let me take it. thought i was sitting in for someone else
fun times

>tfw programming 1 and 2 are taught in java
>tfw there is an unironic class on windows programming

is my school shit?

Yes.

>All I needed was a Bachelor's

You don't even need that.

If you have more than one class on intro programming, it's shit.
If you have dedicated classes to OOP, web dev, or GUIs; it's shit.
If you're not required to take Computer Architecture, Operating System Theory, and Compilers; it's shit
If you're not required to take Calculus, Linear Algebra, Proofs, (Calculus based) Probability, (Calculus based) Statistics, Combinatorics & Graph Theory, or took watered down versions in the CS department; it's shit.
If you're not required to take Programming Paradigms, Type and Programming Language Theory, Formal Languages & Automata, Computability Theory, and Complexity Theory; it's shit.
If you're don't at least do one of Networking, Databases, or Distributed Computing; it's shit.
If you don't have a capstone project to graduate, it's shit.

>language theory
muh pumping lemma
>computability
muh while(halts(this)){}
>computer architecture, OOP and FP
>low-level programming (i.e. assembly and system calls) and networking
That isn't math by any stretch
>game theory
What kind? And post proof that this isn't an elective.

>Now for the math, you have almost the whole of calc I and parts of calc II, arithmetic, combinatorics, probability theory, formal logic and linear algebra.

Thank you for proving my point.

>I make way more money than you
You're a prostitute.

>>computability
>muh while(halts(this)){}
Thank YOU for proving MY point.

Veeky Forums's continuing hate on CS is one of the worst cases of pride in ignorance I've ever seen.
t. mathematician

>not know that CS majors grossly exaggerate the amount of math they study.

They don't claim to take tons of math, and that's like one freshmen level course. Why would they study math major style math when it's literally useless for CS? They typically take Calc 3, Probability, Discrete Math, Linear Algebra, Physics 1 and sometimes 2, and sometimes Differential Equations. Not amazing math going on there but there's no claim that there is.

It may not be amazing math, but the meme is that it's 10th grade-level. Besides, once you know calc 1, you literally can pick up any book and go arbitrarily further i.e. what physics majors claim they can do about CS.

>capstone project
>not thesis
t. shit school

>caring about what a few contrarian autists think on an japanese terriyaki forum
No1 claims that it's the most hardcore degree out there, but the possibilities and application of CS are great. Most of these retards probably aren't even in stem, are just memeing around, or are bitter virgins that their autism and lack of character can't land them a job after earning the illustrious degree of engineering (lol).

Btw why don't you go out there and tell your uni the cs curriculum is shit. I mean if you really value science that much, why not actually do something about it? Use that galaxy brain of yours.

btw any of you galaxy brains want to provide an actually good cs curriculum for me pls?

>>tfw there is an unironic class on windows programming

Required?

Holy shit this thread is filled with insecure idiots.
How about studying something you enjoy instead of waving math dicks.

So what if we get watered down calculus? I compared my discrete math courses to my mech eng friend, ours were much more advanced than his.

Why wouldn't CS curricula be optimised for CS? A bachelor program is only 3 years here, there are choices and trade-offs to be made. Maybe that's all the calculus we need.

And there is nothing that stops someone from learning more in their free time, which is something I certainly plan to do. Simply because I'm interested in it.

Your point was that CS curricula isnt easy and then proceeded to cap out at "some of calc 2" and you wonder why everyone thinks CS is a meme degree. Every actual computer scientist I know has their phd in maths or double majored in math. And when asked about the state of CS curricula they all agree it is generally a trainwreck which needs an overhaul of formalism and rigor.

>maybe thats all the calculus we need
You arent attending a trade school to perform a certain task, ostensibly you are supposed to become educated in the theory of computation. To properly do that would require an extensive mathematical education.

There wasnt an "optimized" calc class when I was in my undergrad for physics, why would there be for CS or engineering?

>the cs monkeys are pretending to know what they're talking about again

You're clearly missing my point.

>I compared my discrete math courses to my mech eng friend, ours were much more advanced than his.

Post evidence or it didn't happen.

Your point is as I understand it: you dont think CS necessarily requires the same mathematical rigor as other math heavy fields, supported by your experience seeing mechE curriculum which was less advanced than your own. Your thought is that it is mitigated by the fact that anyone can go and learn more at their leisure.

I agree in principle, but to my mind your stance has two major issues. 1 - people are useless twats who wont go learn on their own initiative. 2 - Calculus is fundamental to the entirety of modern mathematics, I really cant think of a valid reason why every STEM student doesnt take calc 1-3.

>Now for the math, you have almost the whole of calc I and parts of calc II, arithmetic, combinatorics, probability theory, formal logic and linear algebra.

No analysis,no algebra, only baby no proof linear algebra.

Simple CS don't had any formal math education.
Simple read baby Rudin or algebra artin Michael.

test

We saw the same things.
But we went more in depth. It's the simple consequence of them having only one discrete math course while we had 2.

>you don't think CS necessarily requires the same mathematical rigor as other math heavy fields
No, I'm all for mathematical rigor. What I mean is that CS simply doesn't require as much calculus, and given there are only 3 years choices have to be made as to what can be taught to students.
That's why for example we get 2 discrete math courses compared to most engineers (EE and CE also get 2), mech engineers just need it less than EE and CE engineers or CS.

>CS curricula isnt easy
I didn't say it wasn't "easy," I said it was much harder than merge sort.

>cap out at "some of calc 2"
Nice strawman, dummy. BTW just checked what calc 2 and 3 cover, it actually covers all of calc 2 and some of calc 3.

>you wonder why everyone thinks CS is a meme degree
Oh I don't wonder anything. I know why memesters would call a degree that can get them a job but won't make them feel like the next Einstein a meme degree.

>Every actual computer scientist I know has their phd in maths or double majored in math.
Makes no fucking sense. Not only are you appealing to anecdotes, but since you consider all CS to be a joke, you're actually saying everyone you know who is doing this joke of a job has a Ph.D. in math.

>they all agree it is generally a trainwreck which needs an overhaul of formalism and rigor
Shit school graduates. Where I study, we are rigorous. Not as much as where I studied before doing CS, but more than math majors in Burgerstan that's for sure.

>There wasnt an "optimized" calc class when I was in my undergrad for physics, why would there be for CS or engineering?
Shit schools. Never took any "optimized" calc 1-3 class to get into my school.

Linus is not the spokesman of CS students. He started his career doing unboxings and painting. Doubt he even has a CS degree.

>No analysis,no algebra
Forgot those, and in first world countries, we call calculus "real analysis," but they're there. I already know most of what's covered in Baby Rudin (chapters 1-8, some of chapter 9 and basics of vector calculus).

By the time the doctor is obsolete because of machines, you won't be needed to program or design them anymore, and certainly not even to construct them, winner. Being a CSfag must be difficult when life hands you such difficult problems as recognizing all those trees happen to be a forest.

Sigh

I talked to the grad students and they told me that theres been so many complaints about the curriculum that they radically changed it from c++ to java and from theory oriented to codemonkey oriented in the past few years. A few professors left too. Maybe I should transfer

Not required

>nothing makes women wet like introducing yourself as Dr.(Last name)
Does that apply for a doctor of mathematics?

Why all this hate for Java?

>argue with prof
Don't you guys have some kind of identification or something?

I would love to see Math grads attempt to explain the inner workings of a DBMS and be able to make decisions based upon this and prove for an optimal solution using relational algebra.

When it comes to algorithms and mathematics computer science is indeed limited. But that isn't where the value of the degree is held. It's in database theory and development of good programming skills as well as an advanced understanding of object oriented programming.

Also no other degree really investigates knowledge representation or reasoning to the extent that computer science does. Which btw is essential to further technological advancements.

But I go to a shit school and I have to do all of those things

Java is oversaturated, too many people know it. Theres more demand (according to job search sites in my area) for c++.