How badly can a student write in his third year of university attendance? This badly:

>How badly can a student write in his third year of university attendance? This badly:

>"The largest controversy within the Waco case was where the fire originated from, claiming that the tear gas is not powerful enough to create one. Assumptions were undergoing the process that the Davidians set fire to themselves inside the ranch, due to the fact that the ATF and FBI assured the weapons capability were not powerful enough to do so."

jamesgmartin.center/2016/04/why-many-college-students-never-learn-how-to-write-sentences/

>Calkins is one of the original architects of the “workshop” approach to teaching writing to children, which holds that writing is a process, with distinct phases, and that all children, not just those with innate talent, can learn to write well. According to the project web site, books by its leaders are “widely regarded as foundational to language arts education throughout the English-speaking world.”

>“What’s most important to me,” explained a project staff member during the open house, “are social issues. I teach fiction writing to teach social justice.” She went on to describe her methodology: “I tell students that they must always first start with an issue—gender discrimination, racism, poverty—not a character. Then we create a character around the issue.” She explained that she instructed children to plot the story from start to finish before setting out, telling them to be certain to alternate between “incident, dialogue, incident, dialogue.” While virtually all professional writers of fiction describe the element of surprise and discovery as central to the process, this teacher takes an alternate view: “By the time children begin to write, they know exactly what their characters will do and say. The point is, there should be no surprises when you sit down to write fiction.”

>The leader then projected copies of student papers on the wall, where we read several stories about bullying, gender discrimination, etc. The stories were impressively written, although they seemed, after a while, to sound almost uniform; without exception, each protagonist was a victim of some kind.

>Beginning in kindergarten, children are to regard books as objects of study. They are asked, for example, to compare two books and try to figure out which characters have a “worse life”; make a “study” of Frog and Toad books; or debate whether Enchantress from the Stars is fiction or fantasy. Children are asked to keep track—on Post-its, or other diagramming material—of the ways characters’ lives resemble their own. Indeed, project methods require a vast array of accoutrements: charts, matrixes, Venn diagrams, page numbers, graphs, reading marathons, bookmarks, book corners, book bags, book celebrations, jazzed up “book talk,” and great discussions about how to live “readerly lives.”

educationnext.org/the-lucy-calkins-project/

Other urls found in this thread:

indiana.edu/~p1013447/dictionary/8thgradeexam.htm
wilsonquarterly.com/quarterly/winter-2014-four-decades-of-classic-essays/history-past-life-reeked-with-joy/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Standards of writing even at the PhD level at prestigious universities are really fucking bad these days. What you might expect to be the average writing skill of state school undergrads is the norm among high level PhD students. With dips into worse quality.

It really is amazing how we've institutionalized mediocrity. All these people are private school educated too.

Why are children being taught this ideology?

Bloody postmodern relying on neomarxism.
It's divide and conquer under the premise of diversity.

America is full of factory schools. Private educations are still factory-structured, despite what capitalist ideologues might say.
In addition, despite what humanist ideologues might say, the average person is actually very stupid in the sense that they learn inefficiently. A very intelligent person could probably learn a language, with a little help, by reading. No goofy memorization sessions needed. With regards to one's native language, an intelligent person can 'fix' their writing through the writing of others.
More people are receiving university educations, which means more average people. In addition, due to poor literature chosen for students to read (it's all either archaic, awkward translations, or platitude-laden trash), even the smart ones can't self-adjust because their guaranteed exposures to literature are either irrelevant or destructive. What sells and is popular also fits into these categories. Kids are far beyond their prime plasticity by the time they have the chance to read anything that isn't destructive.

Schools spend years teaching kids how to write essays, when they would be better off reading a few scholarly articles.

thanks peterson

lol

>>"The largest controversy within the Waco case was where the fire originated from, claiming that the tear gas is not powerful enough to create one. Assumptions were undergoing the process that the Davidians set fire to themselves inside the ranch, due to the fact that the ATF and FBI assured the weapons capability were not powerful enough to do so."

This feels like it came out of google translate

It has to do with the rise of linguistic focus on descriptive grammar rather than prescriptive grammar.

While syntax is obviously important, grammar rules are, from a linguists point of view, mostly useless. I agree with this as I am in 4th year linguistics and have come to similar conclusions.

Affirmative action

are things better in europe? england?

>standards drop
>my average quality writing seems great in comparison

What's the issue again?

I made it through school without knowing what a noun or verb was.

genuinly incomprehensible

It's just very clear that they're throwing around words they hear/read often but don't actually know the definitions of. I'm an undergrad stem student and when I have to frequently write papers with other students this comes up all the time. They write simple sentences with the style they would use in a conversation, then randomly replace words with more scholarly-sounding alternatives with no thought given to the fact that they're used in different syntax. I don't think this has anything to do with some random sjw workshop teacher like op's /pol/ish bait implies, but more that reading and writing isn't seen as all that important to these people.

What is this person even trying to say? It sounds like one of those contract legalese passages you need to read three times to understand.

Same. I didn't learn a thing in school.

>"The largest controversy within the Waco case was where the fire originated from, claiming that the tear gas is not powerful enough to create one. Assumptions were undergoing the process that the Davidians set fire to themselves inside the ranch, due to the fact that the ATF and FBI assured the weapons capability were not powerful enough to do so."


What words in there could you plausibly defend someone as not knowing the definition of?

>"The largest controversy within the Waco case was where the fire originated from, that the tear gas is not powerful enough to create one. Assumptions were that the Davidians set fire to themselves inside the ranch, due to the fact that the ATF and FBI assured the weapons capability were not powerful enough to do so."

They know the definitions, just not the syntax in which words are used. See "assumptions were undergoing the process," they know what assumptions, undergo, and process mean, but aren't familiar with the way the words function.

To me that looks like someone either rearranged the passage in a rush and didn't check the final product at all before submitting it or copied several bits of text from different sources and put it together
or drugs

Have you two ever read an actual book in your entire lives?

Having read many papers written for upper-division courses, I assure you that university students are capable of much worse.

Seriously, the things students can get away with today is absurd. I would not be surprised if Wikipedia is now considered an acceptable source material.

The end result of making higher education into a for-profit industry.

>grammar rules are, from a linguists point of view, mostly useless.
>I agree with this
gee, I wonder why
>as I am in 4th year linguistics
uh huh
>and have come to similar conclusions
striking

it's how they were taught. think of it this way, you go to school, you have to write an essay on the text you're reading. Let's say it's a dry history text that describes crossing a river. The first thing your teacher imprints as an instruction is to "use your own words", "in your own words". so, what do you do? dry text that puts out all the information needed, you can't just copy it down. So, you rephrase it in the most tortured speech possible. This guy was likely not only writing in a tortured manner to avoid accusations of plagiarism, but also to extend their wordcount. these two things are the most notable aspects in essay writing, wordcount and plagiarism. the content is all better said elsewhere. no one has any reason to read this person's essay regarding waco.

I blame the exorbitant word count requirements enforced for absolutely no good reason. These people have insane aversion to brevity for some reason.

I feel sorry for people who have to read and evaluate this drivel.

this is pretty much the main thing stopping me from attempting to enter academia. even if i withstand the horrible political atmosphere and somehow get lucky in the impossible job market, all that will be waiting for me is an endless supply of this trash to read.

>anything to do with some random sjw workshop teacher

It comes from the fact everyone likes to boast.

i would assume it's the repetition aspect they want. too bad they're just repeating fucking drek.

>ameritard education

it's so bad. When I was in school most of the teachers were female and all they would do is write a few things on the board and tell you to "just do it."

>always notice neat literary devices used by the author that I'm currently reading
>use them within my own writing
>finish reading author
>forget literary devices

>exorbitant
"how will i EVER write 5 double spaced pages worth of material on a Socratic dialogue?"

the longest essay i was ever required to write was like 9 pages.

>tfw you're a genuinely good writer
>tfw it basically makes you a god these days
>tfw you've been able to do a pretty good turn as a proofreader/editor/copywriter

How would one go about getting work like that?

I was lucky because I have a lot of friends who work in business, a few lawyer friends, one friend who works for a nonprofit. These are people that actually have a use for someone who can edit. They knew I was a writer so they started passing their stuff on to me to edit, and they were able to suggest me to other people.

It's taken a long while, and I'm still not really where I'd like to be money-wise, but at least I do work that I both enjoy and get paid for now.

indiana.edu/~p1013447/dictionary/8thgradeexam.htm

What has changed since 1895? The schools have become socialized -- the board of education was created in 1979. Schools have no real competition. No matter what they do they will get paid, and no matter how shitty the teachers are they will be protected.

>I was lucky because I have a lot of friends who work in business
lol

You must be retarded if you can't parse that.

The Davidians were set on fire. The controversy is who did it, the Dravidians themselves or the weapons of the ATF and FBI.

Not that hard, """"lit""""

me

Wow. Why am I not going to school if this is the shit that gets people a bachelor's degree. I hope this essay was written by someone taking the class for a credit and nothing else.

>cherrypicks a single garbled sentence
>wow so i really AM intellectually superior
>this level of reasoning

That's why you aren't going to school.

I hope to teach English at a University level one day. It's the only reason I force myself to give advice to the crap spread across critique threads. Preparation for when I can actually afford to put myself through school. I'm terrified to see what will cross my eyes at an institution. I believe at times it will not be much better than here.

>Be TA and work at Writing Center on campus
>Grading paper one day
>Absolutely incomprehensible
>Last sentence is "tree should be look as good, not just wood"

That's including cover page and citations, correct?

More and more I think of abandoning my dreams of teaching university and trying to be an editor. How's the pay, and how much do you enjoy reading over and correcting other's writing? Do you still do you own writing as well?

>obviously didn't read the entire excerpt in OP
>trolling this poorly
>implying

How would you fix it tho?

Fix'd
The largest controversy within the Waco case was what started the fire, with the claim being that the tear gas used by the ATF and FBI could not possibly have caused it. This led to the assumption that the fire was started by the Davidian's themselves.

You realize the op and his article are just doing a bunch of cherry picking to make themselves look good. The author of the article is clearly unfamiliar with the educational workshop he critiques and it's only being posted here to make sad neets and dropouts feel good about themselves.

Since poorly researched anecdotal evidence is good enough for you, i'll mention that i went to university with some fantastic writers and that nobody I ever met was much worse than highschool level.

>WOW that sure convinced me, I guess the education system is perfect
this message brought to you from viewers like you

They probably just didn't read the sentence out loud.

What? Are you dense? A university paper should be fully edited and flawless structurally. Especially at that level. My functionally autistic friend earned a bachelor's degree and I've seen some of the work he's submitted. The kid is not very smart, and hemisphere work was never very good. But he passed and earned his degree.
Want me to cite that for you, or is real life experience insufficient in anecdotal form? As I said, the person probably took the class for a credit and didn't care much for exceeding. So yes, by this standard I can safely assume I'd fair well in University as I've already had a year in and I know the difference between filler and cohesiveness.

2/10. For two (You)'s.

>hemisphere
>his paper

What I'd give to be on my computer now...

wilsonquarterly.com/quarterly/winter-2014-four-decades-of-classic-essays/history-past-life-reeked-with-joy/

if only you knew how bad things really are

first comment to the article:

>I'm not sure if this author has actually studied the writing workshop theory, both Lucy Calkins and Nancy Atwell.
>A key component of Atwell's workshop is the mini-lesson and students keeping track of errors they make in final drafts.
> Also, Calkins suggests the "take it as is" for YOUNGER grades, understanding that learning to spell is a process where different stages are developmentally appropriate.
>I have taught English---31 years grades 8-12 and college level 10 years
> I know of NO responsible teacher who would ever ignore grammar.

so basically, typical Veeky Forums rage bait with little basis in reality

However, I do feel that my professors grade too generously. In a 300 level English course, I got a comment on a paper that basically said that my conclusion didn't match my argument, and still got an A. In film classes I sometimes don't even get comments back so I don't know if the professor actually read it.

>An angry Martin Luther nailed 95 theocrats to a church door.

CLEAN

YOUR

The fuck? I'm a finance major and haven't had a paper less than ten pages single spaced in the last two years. What shitty school so you go to?

I can't stop laughing, please send aid.

HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT

Wew lad, it sounds like you're talking about an AI learning to form sentences

>exorbitant word count requirements
this is true
it's not only the exorbitant word count of a single essay (you could deal with that by managing your time wisely), but the fact that you have several professors demanding similarly extense essays from you, so you'll inevitably have to rush and deliver subpar work.

ROOM

This is too good.

The elephant in the room here is many of us have had success in academia, simply by being able to write. If universities started drilling the plebs in basic literacy, then we as a subset would have to work harder in order to stand out. Not to mention the enormous amounts of busy work and wasted time this thrusts upon us.

This is exactly the same shit they pulled on the SAT when they removed analogies.

I say status quo.

The pay isn't the best, but it's not bad, and I feel like there's an avenue to much higher revenue if you can increasingly build up your reputation as an editor and edit stuff that's actually vitally important to companies with lots of money.

Speaking purely for myself, I really enjoy editing. I've always had a kind of instinctive sense of when a sentence is "wrong" or "right," and so for me, editing is like taking something flawed and correcting it. It's satisfying, like fitting a puzzle piece into place. I'm also an extremely fast editor, so I do my work quickly and then just go back to writing my own novels and short stories.

It feels like someone was writing at four in the morning.

I sad thing is that you think those are good examples of bad writing in universities, you can find published papers that are much much worse.

do people get pissed at what you trim or do they trust your judgment?

As I said above, a lot of the people I edit regularly are friends I've made, mostly when I was living in New York City. So, for one thing, they trust me. For another thing, apparently my editing is of extremely high quality, so I've earned the benefit of the doubt with all of them. I even had a guy say I was a better editor than people he'd used from Harvard and Yale.

Bad writing is the least of academias worries right now.

Silly brainlet, he was just too intelligent for you user.
>tree should be look as good, not just wood
If you do not see the infinite underlying levels of complexity of this sentence, then you are a mere plebeian and a villain.

In my experience teachign undergrad english, few first years have any sense of grammar or syntax and few care to learn. When I grade papers and meet with my students, I point out the grammatical errors and try to show why it matters that they clearly cannot tell a verb from a noun and why you cannot use apostrophe-s to pluaralize a noun. No matter how much you try to teach the basics (for example, a sentence has the basic structure subject-verb-object), the typical response is "I know how to speak english, why should I learn this?". Then they get into upper year classes and are horrified to discover that they cannot write for shit.

And it gets so much worse when they discover fucking critical theory. Once they start reading (wikipedia articles on) foucault or butler, all hope is lost.

And the fucking children blame the profs for not teaching them. Assholes.

I'd say it's more to do with the word counts being to large for the given subject matter. Expecting near thesis level work from underclassmen is absurd.

Holy shit...

Isn't it perfect though, autoethnography AND Deleuze.

The last part resonates. Even when I am reading for fun the surface level highschool analysis machine is ringing off in my head. I have been trained to be reductive of fiction, which is obviously not good.

>That clunky synopsis
Jesu Christ

desu i never learned to write a sentence. when i am writing a paper i will intuitively edit and rewrite sentences until they sound right to me but i've no actual structure i'm following. how can I learn this?

I genuinely didn't learn to write well until after university when I started writing for blogs. It honestly left me wondering why literally none of my teachers ever flagged me up for it. Were they being nice? Didn't they care?

Authority is no substitute for talent.

your strategy should work perfectly as long as you are a competent speaker of English
don't let grammarians fool you

They just don't care. What problem is it off theirs if you can't write, they have tenure and get paid regardless. Teaching is purely secondary for tenured professors.

True. I think that that as much as these problems are self-inflicted teachers would go a long way simply telling students to write in a basic, readable way. I wonder if they fear sounding rude.

But on that subject, I also wonder about anxiety from the student's perspective. Sometimes I fear I'll bore the reader and it makes me write in an extremely fragmented way to make up for it. I usually flag that up in the editing process but am often left wondering what the fuck I was trying to say in the first place. It still happens a lot when writing covering letters for jobs.

And also the impact of technology because it's easy to see how bad habits formed when writing texts might destroy one's ability to write well.

>tfw nearly all universities are engaged in a conspiracy to hide to fact many foreign PHD students are working at a undergrad level

say i wanted to let a grammarian fool me: where do I begin?

>In the 1400 hundreds
fucking lost my shit

You're not wrong. In my wife's Masters program they found an entire class of 28 Indian students all conspired together and cheated in every class they were in for every assignment and the school opted to do nothing because removing an entire class would look poor for the University because it would seem as if they had a cheating problem or that they were going easy on foreign students. They didn't seem to notice the irony.

is this real life?

This, I'm an ok writer but compared to my peers it's not even fair. I write my papers the morning before it's due and still get A's. I'm a Junior at UC Davis which is actually filled with some really smart people, they are just terrible writers

...

>(im)possibilities

What in God's name did they mean by this?

>"The largest controversy within the Waco case was where the fire originated from, claiming that the tear gas is not powerful enough to create one. Assumptions were undergoing the process that the Davidians set fire to themselves inside the ranch, due to the fact that the ATF and FBI assured the weapons capability were not powerful enough to do so."

This isn't bad. This is how you write in college, though with more simplification and less fluff. The only real thing wrong with this is that there are no citations as to the sources this information came from. A damn university student making a rookie mistake like that is the sad part. And while this is difficult to read for normal people, this is how a real essay is written (or it would be if there were citations).

congratulations on being retarded, I guess

>Middle Evil society was made up of monks, lords, and surfs.

...