Let's try to think of a reason to build floating cities high amongst the clouds...

JunkTop
JunkTop

Let's try to think of a reason to build floating cities high amongst the clouds of Venus.

Relevant facts: as we all know, breathable air is a lifting gas in Venus' shitty CO2 atmosphere. The 1 atm altitude is about 50 km, but the temperature there is a pretty high, about 75 C. If you go up to 55 km, the pressure drops to about 0.5 atm, but temp is now 25 C. So there's a tradeoff to be made. If you were floating at the 55 km level you could probably get away with a 40% oxygen 60% nitrogen atmosphere for your habitat without setting everything on fire. You could also use H2 gasbags to boost your habitat higher up if you need.

Before anyone points out that there's no water in Venus' atmosphere, you can make it from sulfuric acid by heating.

Ideas for what you're going to do once you're there:
1) Use mass drivers to export nitrogen to space settlements in the inner solar system. It's not very common in the inner solar system.

2) Permanent research base like the ones in Antarctica, no civilian or commercial population. You could send probes on balloons down to the surface at will to look around the place.

3) Maybe you could export a steady stream of CO2 to Mars in the form of drive ice slabs in case they want any more of that stuff.

Attached: soviet-venus-aerostat.jpg (57 KB, 609x800)

All urls found in this thread:

sacd.larc.nasa.gov/smab/havoc/
unc.edu/~honoree/Buoyantforce.html
ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20150016298.pdf

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

Its superior to the idea of colonizing mars in virtually every respect desu

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Everybody ignores the simple fact that Mercury is the easiest and best planet to colonize.

has magnetic field
sheltered polar craters with abundant water ice and organics
limitless power generation through robust, simple, scalable methods

You can sit in a polar crater at a comfy temperature on Mercury and pump salt 200 meters away to an sun exposed point and pump it back to boil water and turn turbines. You can use that energy to produce O2 and H2 from water, refine metals for fabrication of colony modules, operate grow lights for food generation.

Atmosphere be damned, we have a winner. Mars's atmosphere may as well not be there and Venus's is actually destructive to the mission.

Lunatick
Lunatick

No gravity worth a shit. Enjoy your gelatinous bones.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Executions will be cool. Huge Hell/Tartarus vibe.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

Its sucks but if we're making comparisons, it's as good as Mars's

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

why doesnt anyone build a flying city on earth? has anyone even tried to build a flying house? i'm sure it's expensive, but people waste their money on all kinds of stupid shit anyway.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Needs to be absolutely enormous (like a 1 km diameter tensegrity sphere) so you can float by heating the interior atmosphere. Venus is easier because of the CO2 atmosphere.

Lunatick
Lunatick

You could also use H2 gasbags
Or CH4 since you are producing tons of that to launch rockets back to Earth anyways

SniperGod
SniperGod

How would you get back off Venus though?

DeathDog
DeathDog

Rockets launched from balloon tethered platforms. Metals for building them would need to be retrieved from the surface using some sort of balloon based grab-bot. Nasa did a study on this.

sacd.larc.nasa.gov/smab/havoc/

eGremlin
eGremlin

very carefully

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

Why would you want to? You have everything you need right here on Venus.

Illusionz
Illusionz

Where the hell are you going to get all that energy

What do you do in case of emergency

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

Imagine having a critical power failure or puncture in the dome.

You, and your whole city, slowly descend into a burning, sulfuric hell with no hope of survival.

King_Martha
King_Martha

You would have reserves of air in tanks, and the air wouldn't just rush out because the pressure is equal. Thats also why you have H2 or CH4 gasbags for emergency lift reserves. You would have time to patch the hole.

Solar energy is all over the place in the shining, wind-swept clouds of Venus.

Bidwell
Bidwell

Solar isn't enough to keep your city going deshu. Also, how do you fight corrosion? At any reasonably dense part of the atmosphere you could float in, there are sulfuric acid vapors and precipitation.

iluvmen
iluvmen

Power failure wouldn't make you sink. You'd design the thing to be stable. Puncture takes literally months to lose much air, you would be able to fix it.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

Every exposed surface could be coated in teflon, which could be made easily enough. Or any other carbon-fluorine compound. They're completely impervious to sulphuric acid. In any case you would have a manufacturing base going on. You could simply manufacture new parts.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

If you're not producing more lift gases, you will sink. Leakage in inevitable, especially because you will need to maintain the bubble at slight positive pressure.

you'd design the thing to be stable

No duh. I'm saying the expense at which you would design and operate this makes it a non-starter for colonies. Even in the ideal situation 90% of the energy budget goes to maintenance and lift gases.

Teflon is not limitlessly impervious to chemical assault. It will also be exposed to UV/stellar radiation and weaken over a relatively short time span (about 2 years). Then how to repair it? Well you have to leave through an airlock which will have non-teflon parts, use robots which have joints and vulnerabilities. Also teflon melts at venus's lower altitudes so have fun sending shit down there.

All those manufacturing steps require resources. Where are you getting fluorine? Where are you getting the energy to reductively refine it? Where are you getting carbon from? CO2 - cool that's more energy down the drain for fixation. How about water? The atmosphere - have fun distilling sulfuric acid-H2O mixture that is already beyond the azeotrope.

The chemical energy budget of this idea horrible. Solar isn't even that great of a source of energy to do this job. Especially when your panels are getting etched out and melted every few months.

JunkTop
JunkTop

The pressure is not equal. You are a buoyant bag of air atop a heavier air mass. There is a positive pressure exerted on the walls of the balloon in stable state. You can make a force body diagram if really don't understand this.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Do you know how gases work?

Of course you'll be producing more lift gases, if you're doing this long term. You'll be drawing in CO2 constantly and feeding it into your machinery.

Where are you getting fluorine?

The surface, probably.

have fun distilling sulfuric acid-H2O mixture that is already beyond the azeotrope

Thank you, I will.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Yah

unc.edu/~honoree/Buoyantforce.html

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

the force on the outside and inside is identical idiot
unless its some rigid structure

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Forces are equal in steady state. Pressures are not fyi.

Make a force body diagram if you have learned to do that yet. Or read the link

happy_sad
happy_sad

Air pressure,however, must be equal so that the balloon is not crushed.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

To do this the air particles
must be bouncing around and putting pressure on the walls of the balloon.
If there were generally just fewer particles then the pressure would not be equal because the particles would not bounce off the walls as often as the outside air that has more particles

So when the atmospheric compositions are the same, heat makes up the difference.

But in our case where we take advantage of mass of gas particle, and a closed balloon, the pressures will be different at T1=T2.

You can also think about this in terms of: Is the top of the balloon stretched tight? Why?

Oh, because there are thousands of cubic meters of lighter than atmosphere gas trying to rise against the weight of the colony pushing against the surface of the balloon.

At equilibrium, gravity and buoyant force are equal. That doesn't mean, however, that gas would not rush out if you poked a hole in the balloon. P1=/=P2.

Playboyize
Playboyize

I've always wondered why some obscenely rich fuck hasn't commissioned a zeppelin yacht.

Methnerd
Methnerd

A hole on the top would allow the mildly bouyant air to leak out yes
A hole on the side will hardly leak at all
A hole on the bottom not at all

Emberburn
Emberburn

part break down
ran out of replacements
thousands die

Emberfire
Emberfire

Is the top of the balloon stretched tight? Why?

Because the walls of the rubber balloon are under tension. You could fill a paper bag with hydrogen and it would float without being puffed up tight.

SniperGod
SniperGod

Martyrs to the Motherland and to Socialism. We will remember them!

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Or go to mars and a hundred or two hundred years be able to manufacture replacements in situ. Or even better mine asteroids and build space habitats.
Although that's too practical, right?
dude lets colonize the sun lmao.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

mine asteroids and build space habitats

part break down
ran out of replacements
thousands die

go to mars

part break down
ran out of replacements
thousands die

They exact same "argument" holds anyplace in the solar system you can't jump on a plane and fly back home to safety.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

Did you even read what I said? You can make replacement parts on mars or on asteroids, you can't on Venus.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

Did you even read what I said?

Not really, I just glanced at some of the words and quickly assembled a retort.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

If you hold a buoyant paper bag of hydrogen down you will notice the gas still exerts a pressure on the top of the bag. The whole bag doesn't just float, the gas is pushing on the surface

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

hell you could go do the same test with a ziplock bag full of air in the bathtub

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Actually you do sort of have a point hidden within your ravings. A hole in the top will lead to gas pouring out. The pressure is still the same though. Your ears won't pop if you go in and out an airlock to the outside.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

It would be safer and less expensive by such an insane amount if you just had a space station in orbit and used robots to do your dumb shit on the planet.

T. Kerbal professional

Spamalot
Spamalot

It's also not even about CH4 or N2 or O2 being lifting gases in a CO2 atmosphere
It's that you can passively or actively heat the balloon from the 2x strength sun for tons of extra lift.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

already floating in 75 C ambient temperature
let's kick it up a notch

wew lad. I like to cook my colonists alive too but slow down.

eGremlin
eGremlin

It's easier to access the asteroids from venus than it is from other bodies in the solar system. Because venus has a smaller orbit, opportunities arise to get to any given asteroid more often. So it makes a reasonable staging point for asteroid mining. Orbital phasing is a bitch.

The sun you idiot. Venus is closer to the sun, so the solar flux is greater(2.6 KW/m2). Oh and the sulfuric acid cloud layer is quite reflective so solar panels also work when facing down.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

The sun you idiot. Venus is closer to the sun, so the solar flux is greater(2.6 KW/m2). Oh and the sulfuric acid cloud layer is quite reflective so solar panels also work when facing down.

Please supply the average lux for each part of the atmosphere on venus you plan on hanging out in.

Thanks.

TreeEater
TreeEater

ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20150016298.pdf

Lots of info in there, particularly on page 5 showing the light intensity at various altitudes.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

Where we're going, we won't need bones

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

Isn't Venus reasonably Terraformable?

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

You put the solar panels near the top of the atmosphere where they work the best

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

Terraforming is inherently unreasonable. Dumping all that water, all that oxygen, onto a planet just so you can have a thin layer of marginally habitable living space in a thousand years. You could have build a hundred thousand gigantic space habitats for that effort.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

I can't think of a reason since building a space station colony instead would be better all around.

Skullbone
Skullbone

because retarded regulations, it would be never allowed to take off.

JunkTop
JunkTop

Because the size it needs to be just to lift a little bit of weight is gargantuan.

Attached: Airship-Size-Comparison-chart-2014.jpg (127 KB, 1500x1876)

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Redirecting asteroids (made of water) would be simple when we get good at being in space..

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

I'm sure there's a country where it can be done.

Evilember
Evilember

How big is good year in relation to pic

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

colonizing another planet is a meme since human population is soon to be stable and AI will make population expansion redundant and inferior

Lunatick
Lunatick

a plane

takes2long
takes2long

Yeah this. Soon our AI overlords will euthanize everyone, and we won't mind because we'll all small-souled bugmen.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

This, planes are better than Zeppelins. They make sense on Venus though

Attached: landis-balloon.jpg (1012 KB, 1300x900)

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

If you have a 40% O2 environment you will get oxygen poisoning.

farquit
farquit

No point trying to do that on Venus due to corrosion from sulfuric acid. Oh, good look trying to breathe that. Costs are exorbitant and you won't be even able to mine resources.
Mars is our best bet. Water is present, temperatures aren't that bad, gravity is low but with working out and regular crew exchanges there's no problem. Oh, and we can mine for resources.
A cloud city on Venus has literally no point. It's a monumental engineering challenge but doesn't pay off at all. There's no gain. Hell, even at this moment "colonizing" should be just making mining outposts, anything to make money out of those enterprises, otherwise they're unsustainable and will never happen.

Techpill
Techpill

asteroids
I think you mean comets, which are made of water ice in a large percent. This is still completely outrageous - comets tend to have long periods - how the fuck are you going to redirect them finely enough to hit Venus? How about burning up in the dense atmosphere, the water will become hot vapor, this will ONLY increase the greenhouse effect and inject additional temperature. Good job.

TreeEater
TreeEater

its extremely mild sulfuric acid similar to "acid rain" on earth
Dredging on the surface & fully autonomous mining is easily doable
Hot temperature would make the rock/metals easier to mine too

whereismyname
whereismyname

Are you retarded? No it's not like acid rain.

RumChicken
RumChicken

JELLO

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Partial pressure dingus. If it's half an atmosphere you should be fine.

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