How can consciousness be possible if there is no collective, only atomic agglomerations which form a "self"...

>How can consciousness be possible if there is no collective, only atomic agglomerations which form a "self"? Who receives this consciousness?

>[...] Suppose the following: A contraption is constructed on a wall. The maker puts a number of small metallic spheres on top of it, and they slide down the ramps. This contraption was built in a way that, depending on the amount of spheres put on it, a different answer will be given in the end. The maker puts exactly four spheres on top, which slide, rotate and jump, going through many obstacles, until the end, where a final sphere indicates at last what message is given.

>Could it be said that this contraption has qualia, uniquely for having input, processing and output? Wouldn't the answer be nothing more than a result of physical processes, simply action and reaction?

If consciousness is a mere illusion created by our brain to exteriorize ourselves from the ambient, what is our brain deceiving? Let's divide the brain into two parts: the main one, and the one responsible for the creation of consciousness, qualia. If the main part is responsible for everything, such as hunger, desire, thoughts and all the logical processing, therefore this part is led to be exteriorized from the ambient through the tricks of the second part. But we, while spirit, are the brain in its totality. Then, what is the second part deceiving? The atoms? The cells? Or the total functioning of the brain? But it is exactly this: input, processing and output. If the second part interferes in the processing, all that would change would be the output, since exteriorizing itself from the outside would change the output, but that is it. No one receives any consciousness.

>[...] Then, there are two possibilities: either qualia exists beyond the physical world (a soul), or our understanding of this subject is vague and incomplete. No matter what, there must be a change.

Bump

>How can consciousness be possible if there is no collective, only atomic agglomerations which form a "self"?

Consciousness precedes Phenomena, atoms.

Who are you quoting?

>>How can consciousness be possible if there is no collective, only atomic agglomerations which form a "self"? Who receives this consciousness?
this is retarded, as usual from normies.

consciousness of something happens before perception, but only people who do not love mental proliferation see this

>consciousness is a mere illusion created by our brain
materialists trying to understand what they experience top kek

>If consciousness is a mere illusion created by our brain to exteriorize ourselves from the ambient
It's not. Most likely it's a pointless bi-product, nothing happens in your supposed "consciousness" everything is unconscious. If it did have a purpose it would likely be for socialising cohesion purposes. You have plenty of genes and bodily components that literally do nothing. Why don't we have wings? What purpose does a key artery going from your brain to your heart, yet before that doing flawed loops around your lungs have? Nothing, it's just a a remnant of genetic past, which all mammals and have, as they derive from fish.

You could argue it isn't and cannot be material.
Can some billions of transistors which are abstracted to the point of having an AI which can beat any human Go player in the world (even several of the best) in addition to simultaneously shitposting on Veeky Forums; not be considered in the same way then?

What happens when you have a general system capable of everything our brains are and more? Most likely it won't have any distinct "consciousness" and "unconsciousness", yet it won't be any less for it. Is it still immaterial?

b

many....many, different components with many differences embedded in a very complex system containing many many components with many differences that in some ways have relations that interact in different and similar some ways which produce and result in categories of actions.

Consciousness had to be mastered at the smallest scales first, life, life processes, developed simplest and smallest first.

a word is awareness, even though there are some micro creatures which have dna, and are called alive, (and there are plants with have dna but are called not aware, not conscious), eventually, 'coherent' relations of materials 'stuck' together in some relatively bonded proximity, developed via the natural processes of dna and its particular relations to its immediate grouping of materials and immediate environment, capturing more material in its group (cells, organizationism) 'allowing?' the dna to do different things in relation to the material (the concept of dna had to be invented, developed, evolve and adapt hand in hand with its material confines (cellularness, biochemical mechanisms) and with non conscious life like plants, well there are all the different frequencies of light, and there is water, and the material-dna system that was developing, light was something as a component, something of a fuel, engine, energy quantas, waves, evoked the cellular material-dna system to become its material form continue its string of blueprint data that controls the abilities of the material to react when it interacts with materials of the environment (light enters here, this occurs, water enters here this occurs), and millions and millions of years (....thats a long time) and millions and millions of trials and errors (could have said billions for both maybe) and 'the potential for conciousness/awareness' existing in these forms, having to start out from the ground up, simplest first, build on that and build on that, big earth, lots of material numbers game,

and so eventually some of these materia-dna systems developed stronger and stronger 'relationships', feedbacks, abilities, of mechanism and reaction, and if x happens do y, and if x happens from this angle at this speed at this time do y1, some of these 'entities' developed the ability to 'sense'? some of the materials-dna 'groups' were of such a complex orientation, that they unlocked avenues of potential,

(so the big key seems to be dnas development, dnas abilities, to replicate and stuff, how these natural mechanisms were able to be formed that can consistently operate and function, because once dna-material(elements,chemicals, compounds)(cells) was able to master its thing in its place, then it was just ___insert number here over amount of time___ amount of dna-material systems, taking material/energy (atoms, molecules, light) from the environment, into its cellular lair and then reactions would take place, and the dna would be changed in some way, and the cellular material would be changed

in some way, and the cellular material would be changed in some way, and there was enough of these systems to successfully exist and perpetuate their existence, (maybe even the interactions of multiple different dna-material + dna-material (as in eating vegetable or animal), so sun, rain, (environments, lake, sea, rock, mud, (soil), etc. molecules, reactions) + material- dna systems where they are, failing, succeeding, to incorporate materials within their reach, into their entityhood, which would change their dna, so that if they continually had access to these materials, new possibilities were unlocked, and maybe they can grow in different ways, and be stable, and parts of the dna code over much time became more engraved in stone than others, and parts were responsible for the leeways of potential positive change, (though they are not thinking of these things, thinking of striving to continuously exist, to get bigger, to have more complex reactions, complex reactions that could eventually produce oak trees, and banana and pineapple trees, and berry bushes, and grass etc., but just these reactions and continuities were taking place, the potentials embedded in elements/molecules, earth/sun/moon system, that dna was possible, dna-material systems were possible, and given all possible inputs, their evolution was possible,

until some of these dna-material systems (took on a mind of their own), developed mechanisms which in real time could alter the system to put it in a more advantageous position to posses the materials it needs to continue its mechanical performances

before awareness/conciousness, were purely 'sensory' mechanisms developed? think about the simplest creatures, micro, insects, what have you, their ability to detect information about the environment from a distance; though I guess the first big need, is the need for movement. the ability for movement, what is controlling the movement.

plants move, grow, but there is no awareness looking or sensing about the world and saying move this way, the environment moves the plant, the suns energy continuously strikes down where the plant is, and this causes reaction with the plant material-dna system, along with its taking other materials from its location, and it has no choice but to grow, according to its written functions, a self constructing machine, building into the sturdy frame of sunlight

there are other dna things, which may be said to be not conscious that can move, maybe yeast, maybe worms...idk

purpose embedded in dna-materia system? continue to construct the system, continue to gain materials so that system can operate, the dna-systems at this point, one question here, regarding all this is, knowledge, purpose, how it is embedded, how, did dna-material 'know', feel, that it was 'good' to remain', good to strive, to, well, obviously, feelings, feelings come into play, that at some point it 'felt bad' for these systems to 'lose', life. construction of the body and maintenance and gaining of needed exterior materials, ""felt better"", than the lacking of materials, degradation, faulty system operation,

think about how small an insects brain is...compared to us... but think about how small an atom is... think about how complex of a system an insect and its brain is


but feeling requires 'something that can feel', an experiencer, awareness; seeing requires something that can see, hearing something that can hear... etc.. and essentially that 'that which can see, that which can hear' is ultimately reffered to as 'I', that which is thinking, that which has felt the events of my body, that which is the representative of my bodies needs. the material-dna, eventually developed some representative system, some purpose system, some real time, feedback, knowledge system, first of all there is the interest of speeds too, at small scales, the subtleties of electrics and such

so inside the body, eventually, as the plants move towards the light, the body developed abilities to move (at all, on its own,) towards the sound, towards the smell.

sensory mechanisms, eventually developed 'camera', which could represent the outer world, and bring the outer world map into the body system, and continuously stream it on its inner walls, and developed in dna records (materials x, y, z is good, what is needed to continual grow and maintain our body) and so systems were developed which let the body detect x,y and z in the environment, and then once those were detected, the body moves in those directions

>consciousness is a mere illusion created by our brain
fucking kek'd hard

Literally just reposited Spinozist metaphysics in 'materialist' language.

..go on?

what do you mean by 'materialist' language? what is your posit? what did I say wrong? I was attempting to think about how the world actually is and then describe what I saw

memory is needed...
'screens' are needed
energies, structures/mechanisms, channels are needed

small bits, go together certain ways to make larger bits

continuity/s is needed

imagery of the outside world is projected inside

'information' of the outside world, light, wind, rain, molecules (smell, air), 'bump into the body'

the body sends the information of these molecules to the inside of it, where the map of the world is projected,

right now someone outside is barbecuing, it smells good, if this was the wild, or as we can imagine with dogs, smell something good, go in that direction, how ingrained is good smelling things, (though our senses of smell are not that great, as we have not depended so much on needing them to survive, of course like many, senses of sight have been given extreme attention, much of our learning is through sight, and recording videos, and being able to invent and edit our own videos in mind/imagination and memory

(I did not always have this ability
is it not true, that likely 100% of just born babies, left in a place in the wild, with gureentee no wolves or people coming by to raise it, will die?

this shows the importance of information sharing, teaching, learning, passing down information, 'community', the baby needs a lot of development of memory, in its head its map of the world grows larger and stronger, more connections of thoughts, realizations, relations between inner and outer,

when one lifts there arms (babies quite young can be seen kicking and lifting their arms. and performing movements and actions), there is some, 'thing', inside its head... that 'has reasons' to move... just natural, inclinations, itches, ticks, muscle spasms, the body dna-material system performing its written tasks, growing, building, but a baby can feel good, the baby laughs and kicks its arms and legs, because there are chemicals and pleasures, rewards for successful body operation, and this causes the baby to celebrate its existence with smile and happiness, and when a baby cries,.. who knows... sensitivities, exaggeration of feelings, weaknesses, just a helpless body trying to grow, a 'know nothing' essence entered into a world of strange sights and feelings and sounds, scary shadows, bright lights, deliriousness, how easy it might be for this little thing to feel queasy, dizzy, confused, making all these maps and connections in the head, feeling all the parts of the body striving to grow their best, reactions to foods, chemicals in the head, headaches)

so an inner system is developed, muscles of memory, cursors, lines, shapes, an inner photoshop/video editor/cataloguing system/etchersketch is developed where the inside makes sense of itself, and its relation to what can be seen of the outside,

one essence of the, mystery, seems to always come down to the concept of 'chosen...choice in general' 'self movement', how an entity, a system, a singular self enclosed thing, can move itself

>Could it be said that this contraption has qualia, uniquely for having input, processing and output?
Yes.
>Wouldn't the answer be nothing more than a result of physical processes, simply action and reaction?
Yes, but that doesn't mean it can't have qualia.

we can program a machine, a toy, to self move, but there are timers involved, there is nothing in the machine that goes, 'ok I will move in that direction now, because I am the commander of this body, and I am aware of my ability to choose a direction to move in'

but according to the baby example, we need to be programmed to move, our inner commanders, commands, and command centers need to be programmed, constructed, excersized, to strength and ability


the trouble obviously is the regression, ala those movies with the cutting the alien head open to see a little alien inside moving controls, russian doll like, then theres a smaller guy in the small guys head, and smaller guy in the small guys head etc... where is the control coming from, zoom in to the smallest, zoom out to the largest, particles involved in the body and consciousness

the mind is a simulated version of reality, it contains reality, street names, food names, molecules/nutrients contained in the food, details of the food, house styles, clothing styles, colors, all these exist perceptionally outside the body, and the body categorizes these and photographs these and stores it inside the body,

the body develops a simulation of the world, that little simulations can pull the levers in the simulation, to move the real thing,

what reason do I have to lift my right arm;

when there is no reason to life my right arm I dont, but I know I do not need a reason to lift my right arm, because I can say in my head,, lift my right arm, and I do

I dont have to say this, but there has to be some intent,

trying to have no thoughts or intents in my head, but just focus on my body, and before I lift my arm, trying without thought of word or reason or command, to just lift my right arm... what is happening, what are the process mechanisms that is controlling the force and operation of my arm lift,

what part of my brain is holding my arm, lifting my arm, what part of my brain, well it is a network, I can feel my right hand, I need to lift from like my elbow because its all connected, and shoulder, but the lifting, the command, the decision, the event, takes place in the head?

something in the head is continuously sending command to lift and hold the arm

electric messages firing, pulsing to the arm, keep it up keep it up hold it hold it,

ITT

pure phenomenology

the mind records water falling, the mind records a geyser shooting up, the mind records a rock rolling down the hill,

so the mind closes its eyes, and (this is the big mystery, how... controls) controls the 'substance of imagination realm' to replicate the concept of 'a thing falling down', how does the mind see inside itself, when the eyes close, how is what is seen seen, what is seeing

with eyes closed, a blue circle x can be made to fall from top to bottom down, a red circle 2x can be made to fall from top to bottom down, can be made to move from bottom up too

rock rolling down a hill...things can move... this mind can control the data inside of it... well thats the first trick I guess... the body controlling itself at all... whether a person moving their fingers or centipede its legs

the mind sees movement is possible, so close eyes, look inside at this 'I can use concepts I have seen outside, to 'invent' slightly different things inside', I have seen movement outside, I can replicate movement inside.. what if I can control my body, what if I can move my body...

so the same or similar methods, that lets the mind looking inside itself, and to degrees invent and control what it is seeing, and inside move its inner parts which can depict things, if it can move these inner parts, perhaps its can move outer parts, perhaps it can move itself,

what are you smoking bro

Only thing that even comes close to capturing grasping subject.

oh, is that what you thought was wrong?