As the 21st century continues, how relevant do you think he will be?

As the 21st century continues, how relevant do you think he will be?

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Very.

I hope you've read him because it's going to be a wild ride, and he knows what we're in for.

Schopenhauerian pessimism is back baby!

>I hope you've read him because it's going to be a wild ride
How so?

He was on the right track but he got some fundamentals incorrect/misinterpreted them.

You know how Trump got elected? Yeah, stuff like that is going to keep happening and become more and more absurd until there's nothing left of our society but maniacal laughter as everything burns and people kill each other in the streets.

>a single thing happened that i dont like
>everything is going to fall apart in absurdity omg the world is ending!!
stop projecting your desires for death and disorder, pathetic ideologue

It's going to happen whether you or I like it or not. Wake the fuck up.

t. Letzter Mensch

...

Without making a new thread:
I've been reading some Beyond Good and Evil, but now Genealogy of Morals, and while he goes on to define the distinctions between moral and immoral, or amoral, and noble and ignoble, on the topic of the origins of guilt and bad conscience, he also makes reference to, and argument out of, being natural and unnatural.

My question is, what material can I refer to (or back to, my retention does lapse a lot) to get a specific understanding of what Nietzsche considers as natural vs. unnatural, because I'm having a more troubled time abstracting some of his ideas without that frame of reference to contextualize his ideas.

Well he's a Rorschach test for pseudo intellectuals so he will always be relevant

Trump's election is a manifestation of the desire for correction against the "democratic movement" with its rampant degradation of society through exaltation of slave morality value as virtue, victimhood and incapability as merit, weakness celebrated, and these inversions of value system mimicked in the political sphere (politics is downstream from culture) run amok.

al
ways

>amor fatty
Damn, was he a chubby chaser?

Less and less, like philosophy in general

He will become read more and more to make people feel better about feeling nihilistic in the hellish culture, but very few people will actually put his philosophy into practice

The fact that you think a populist movement is compatible with Nietzsche shows you have the reading comprehension of a child

...

Not that user, but he does make a point that the Trump movement's scorn for weakness as a virtue in liberal democracy is entirely aligned with Nietzsche's thought. And even though his philosophy utterly detests any collectivist movement, including nationalism, he did not foresee that the ideal naturally-born Ubermensch, someone with the know how and smarts to see beyond commonly accepted values, might actually benefit more from exercising his will to power within these boundaries instead of creating his own. I'd argue his validation of the will to power influenced history more than the pretty vague idea of the Ubermensch anyway.

Trump is a weak and incapable man.

I think you mean litmus test, but this

Came here to post this.

trump is a victory for liberal rationality, what crack are you smoking?

Intellectually, yes. Practically, no. The Dems will some how fumble the anti-trump sentiment by being bland, uninspiring, and relying too much on "Trump sux, vote for us."

Who won the election.

It doesn't matter what Trump is outside of his being an outsider. The status quo demanded a disruption and he presented to be the necessary disruptor.

I would argue it's not as simple as Nietzsche defied collectivism therefore anything that has any hint of a collectivist overtone is entirely contrary to Nietzsche (in part, for certain, but "entirely"? certainly not).

We have evinced over time that the liberal policymakers have only effected to displace the American citizen and the American ideal to freedom and prosperity based on one's strengths and one's merits by attacking the institutions of meritocracy: creating and expanding a welfare state, exalting rather than shaming the subsequent culture of dependency, outsourcing labor, undermining domestic labor either by refusal to enforce immigration law or by shipping entire industries overseas, over-legislating and over-regulating, ballooning taxation, and where all people would equally feel the government's dagger in their back where the aforementioned issues would not affect all people equally: repression of speech and ideas in the free market of ideas enforced by self-righteously driven, mob mentality, state dependents, (collectively) getting off to the idea of being more "virtuous" than the next but by way of perverting the strong and capable man, who must necessarily impart his will, his presence, his force, and in some way oppress the world around him to achieve his will to power, into the evil man; and the weak man who hasn't the power to create or achieve in those same capacities, into the good man, "virtuous" in complete absence of power to be "evil".

While you view it as being collectivist by means of expressing sentiments that resonate in being for national interest, it is rather that certain national interests (over the greater global interest, such as for example wealth redistribution policy), such as in industry and economy, is more tenable to the individual's self-interest insofar as policy favoring the prosperity of industry and economy is conducive to generate the growth/expansion in the career sector necessary to present opportunity to empower the individual. Men need the opportunity to have affordable education, good jobs, good careers, a vision of the future that does not betray and asphyxiate the author in its bleakness, and the celebration rather than condemnation of noble values that the individual can take pride in, in their achievements, and in their future goals, lest they grow nihilistic at the prospect of an unstable, uncertain, tumultuous future.

It may be "nationalist" insofar as it is America declaring itself sovereign again, but at the end of the day, it is merely a response to the out-of-control liberal democracy's attacks on the freedom-hungry American individual's will to power by stripping the ladder of prosperity of its rungs so as to render it unclimbable. If the weak cannot prosper, none shall prosper: the cancerous conclusion of what transformed from a movement that was "equality of opportunity" to "equality of outcome", of detracting all strong men to the lowest common denominator of weak men. You perceive the collective consciousness of men desiring back their freedom of mobility to exercise their strength in the pursuit of self-interest and will to power as a form of collectivization when the desired outcome of less government, less regulation, less restriction, less intervention, less meddling, is completely antithetical to the idea that "a body of people in favor for individuality is still a body". It also ignores the fact that to have voted for Hillary and continued down the road we were going would have only further entrenched a real collectivism, one far more tangible than "multiple individuals together is still a collective".

nits was the worst meme of the 20th century, maybe he'll be the worst meme of this century as well

I think you are already becoming the worst meme of this century sir.

get out of Veeky Forums r-t-rd

Nietzche came before Weimar Germany. He saw the degeneracy of man first hand in its preceded form. Now we all live in it. Remember what happened as a reaction to that time? Yeah. It's going to happen again, on a bigger scale this time.

The Communists and the Marxist degenerate mass of the Left are ripe for a culling once again as better men come to restore order from the chaos.
Nietzche is significant but misunderstood and he gets a bad rep for it.

Once again? Because the Nazis were so successful in revitalizing European culture by killing millions of Europeans, right?

>on a bigger scale this time
You fucking fascists are literally going to destroy humanity because of your imaginary destruction of the culture by the Marxist boogeyman.

Fuck off and stop doing politics with memes.

Nietzche never wrote for the mass. He wrote for the few who would lead them and build them up into better men. He criticized German nationalism in that he considered himself European above that. He was no cosmopolitan, he knew European unification was a necessity, and it still is - just not under the current form of EU.
WW2 should have never happened. It's not like Poland's liberty was protected from it anyway. They should have been left to 1v1 USSR and smash Communism for good.

Political nonsense aside, I doubt you've read Nietzsche...if that's true, then why even attempt to criticize him/people who may have read (some of) his work?

Are you saying that Germany was right to invade Poland? That France and England shouldn't have declared war after that?

It always amazes me how people like you still fall into 80 years old propaganda. Don't forget to deny the holocaust when you reply next.

But I didn't say anything about Nietzsche.

>Are you saying that Germany was right to invade Poland?
I'm saying that's between Germany and Poland.
>That France and England shouldn't have declared war after that?
If they are going to start a war that kills 60M Europeans then they should have probably at least preserved Poland by the end of it, no? Spoiler alert: they didn't. They even allied the guys who raped Poland harder than Germany ever could have.

You're not very bright. This is simple.

Oh please, nobody is saying that WW2 was all about Poland. When Germany invaded Poland everybody knew they were after the entire Europe and seeking revenge for WW1. They allied the Soviets because they had a common enemy. Are you also going to ignore the fact that Nazis invaded and defeated France in a few weeks? Totally what a liberating power would do.

>declare war on a country
>get beaten in a few weeks
>WOOOOOOOOOOOOW WTF HITLER?
Funny how Germany takes some land that were once a part of Germany and suddenly they wanted to rule the whole world and make little blonde haired blue eyed children in the Philippines. And you say I'M the one with my worldview distorted by propaganda. The irony.

Declaring war isn't the same as invading, you idiot. If the Germans were so dedicated to the Western values don't you think they could have done something more peaceful, like simply defending themselves while taking care of the evil marxists in the east?

Also, you still haven't denied the Holocaust, I'm waiting.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_war_crimes take care of this as well, please.

I can't imagine being such a deluded retard that I'd think allies weren't responsible for war crimes, you should be embarrassed. Im willing to bet there was less rape of the French people when Germany beat them in war than when Americans came as allies. You're pathetic.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

My man, you clearly can't keep up with the argument. I never said that the Allies were any better than the Germans. We started discussing when you declared the Germans to be the heroes that would liberate Western society from degeneracy.
>Remember what happened as a reaction to that time? Yeah. It's going to happen again, on a bigger scale this time.
>The Communists and the Marxist degenerate mass of the Left are ripe for a culling once again as better men come to restore order from the chaos.
I then told you believed exactly what the Nazi propaganda wanted you to and that the Nazis, instead of being your idyllic heroes were actually people looking to dominate Europe and they were willing to use any means.
I know what the allies did, I am aware that any country would do the most atrocious things in war. But you are the one who actively wishes for a war.

>you declared the Germans to be the heroes that would liberate Western society from degeneracy.
Never said that you illiterate turbo-nigger. I simply said what happened in Germany is happening across the Western world. The grand irony of this cyclic history being that traditionalists have been browbeaten by being called Nazis so long they are beginning to accept it.
> people looking to dominate Europe
Propaganda. Restoration of old German borders posed a threat to the dominance of existing European imperial powers and they weren't having it.

You're stuck in this mental feedback loop that is incapable of comprehending the Germans as being anything but the greatest evil to have ever existed in the world. It's a pathetic and infantile state of mind.

Unironically the Greeks, the Bible.

And yet he's the POTUS. And who the hell are you?

>you are the one who actively wishes for a war.
Wrong. I do not wish for war. I've warned against this path we are on for years. I am ready to accept war as an inevitability to stop these violent Leftists from getting their way and purge them just as they have had to be purged repeatedly in the past.

And I said that war can't do that. Did the Nazis accomplish that? Hell no, they only got 60 million people killed. Would such a cleansing war accomplish that today? Hell no, it would be even worse because of atomic bombs.

>I am ready to accept war as an inevitability to stop these violent Leftists from getting their way
Oh no, these fucking leftists are getting so violent they demand new words. Surely we need to start a new world war and nuke each other to death to stop this degeneracy.

I have no love for SJWs or feminists or the cultural decay, but I admit that these are things you can live with. When you will grow up and leave the edginess behind you will realize too how silly it is to wish for a total war because girls suck nigger dicks instead of yours.

It wouldn't be "absurd" if he were

>Did the Nazis accomplish that?
Uh, yeah? Are you fucking dumb?(rhetorical question) They banned the KPD and started arresting communists and putting them in labor camps after the Reichstag and Hitler took power. I'd say it worked pretty good.

The USSR also ran the Great Purge as well as the Moscow Trials. Kamenev and Zinoniev were executed. Stalin told them they were a bit too liberal for his liking.

Radical leftists are ultimately just useful idiots made for purging. The type of people for whom concentration camps, internment camps, re-education camps were made for.

>Radical leftists are ultimately just useful idiots made for purging. The type of people for whom concentration camps, internment camps, re-education camps were made for.

Oh wow, I've never looked at it this way. Now that you've said it it totally makes sense. Guess I'm a Nazi now. Congrats on winning the argument

I'm not asking you to be a Nazi.
Never did I imply that. I'm telling you that much of the behavior of Germany isn't exclusive to them and that we face the same dangers as a society if we allow unmitigated societal decay to continue at this pace. I think all of this can be fixed with a cultural shift toward traditionalism and ethical philosophy without violence or purging. The problem here is, Leftists are historically incapable of ever correcting their viewpoint without those two things.

>to make people feel better about feeling nihilistic in the hellish culture

You didnt understand nietzsche lol

By that token you must not have understood him either :^)

He diagnosed the problem far before it arose, and it has only gotten worse. Nihilism and hedonism have become the norm as we've moved away from religion, especially among the liberal elite and two party systems that alienate the common man.

Will be interesting to see if people reject this.

He was a really intelligent guy, and probably a prophet too.

I mean, his Übermensch is soon here, in the form of an A.I that is going to literally put human beings in zoos since we'll be obsolete.

>talking politics while trying to discuss Nietzsche
This is place is so middlebrow, makes me sick

more relevant than ever

Yes, but, AI won't feel any 'Suffering' they will be born without that burden. They won't surpass 'Men'. Then I ask, how one can become Superman without having 3 states of Metamorphosis? Without suffering?

...

Isn't it, to a certain degree, unavoidable? Nietzsche may not be a political philosopher as such, but his ideas are capable of beginning things which have political consequences, more so than many other philosophers.

Or, rather, let's say that the type of world, and the type of people, that Nietzsche both predicts and addresses necessitate a political perspective.

bullshit Nietzsche is the utmost apolitical philosopher and trying to apply his ideas in a political context always end in disaster
Nietzsche is concerned with the individual

Nietzsche left behind the Ubermensch after Thus Spoke Zarathustra. It was not a core idea of his philosophy. You clearly haven't read him and even if you have, you didn't understand him.

We live in a world ruled to a vast degree by liberal democracies, or at least states with the trappings of liberal democracy. The individual is political in such circumstances.

Now improve the citation beyond that page number and we are good.

>using the word populist unironically as a pejorative
pretty much show you have the intellectual capability of a child.

Guess what faggot?
No matter who won the fucking election, the winner was a populist. you know why? because it's a democracy.
If anything, trump is not a populist because he got less of the popular vote.

Good post

Not to be a contrarian, but we can't say definitively whether it was central because he never got around to finishing everything. It's not as if all brilliant ideas come at the beginning of a philosopher's lifetime of thinking, only the first ideas. We simply don't know what role the ubermensch would have turned out to have.

I just finished Thus Spoke Zarathustra and I feel like I missed a lot. Towards the end where Zarathustra renounces his friends was there any other point being made besides that he absent mindedly slipped back into the vice he had renounced? It seemed more symbolic than that, but I couldn't see why.

What should I read next?

kek

>tfw all my knowledge about Nietzsche's philosophy comes from one read from TSZ, the first 70 pages of The Birth of Tragedy and posts of anons who have actually read all his work
>tfw i reply to someone claiming they don't understand Nietzsche I literally start making up shit based on what I feel is the "essence" of his thought and how is it related to the greeks and german idealism, of which I've even less knowledge about, pretty close to nothing
>tfw I've got tons of replies of people who clearly have way more knowledge on him and have probably read a lot of his works since they get in real deep discussions about his thought later in the thread
>tfw I discuss with them and keep learning

I don't know how to feel about this, I can't keep getting away with it

>tons of replies that AGREE with my post
ftfm

The big ideas of his aren't that hard to understand, just the fine-tuning autistic interpretive shit that N scholars have been doing for decades makes it esoteric.

If you started with Zarathustra you did it wrong. Read BGE or GM.

a lot of people just don't want their politicians bought. it really isn't more complicated than that.

>apolitical
>endlessly criticized Christianity for its faults and commented on how people are to reconcile the loss of moral absolutism in the coming change of spiritual/communal/political perspective
"OK"

>confusing fascism with american lunatics
How does one make such a mistake?

It's not simply a matter of politicians being bought, but also a matter of their inherent political values, insofar as they either betray their constituency, by selling their government influence to the highest bidder which is as you outline, or because they are legitimately the representative of their constituency but the constituency themselves has gone rogue and adopted disastrous philosophical ideals that will translate into politics (again: politics is downstream from culture), one brings to mind the revival of state worship if not full blown communism among young college and university students today, and believe me that there are retarded kids who genuinely still fain to believe in the utopian fantasy of communism. As far as accountability is concerned however, there can never be any accountability to constituency as long as there is an anonymous ballot, but it cannot be done away with (God only knows the doxing is bad enough, and are we not all here because we desire anonymity? either so our controversial dialogues cannot come back to harm us or to prevent distraction by reputation from the integrity of an argument's assertion) so it remains as a framework to be exploited in the bureaucratic architecture.

No, see, you clearly didn't understand Zarathustra if you've read it. The Ubermensch is a kind of grandiose image--Zarathustra entreats the people of the marketplace to free themselves of the yoke of metaphysical values, to reevaluate all values and become the Ubermensch, but he fails to do anything but attract their laughter and mockery. The Ubermensch is Zarathustra/Nietzsche thinking that he has overcome himself. Zarathustra spends 10 years alone in the mountains; Nietzsche spent much of his time up in his head, and he thought that he could simply give away his wisdom and lead others to the same kind of self-overcoming. But the entirety of the text follows Zarathustra as he realizes that self-overcoming (Ubergang) is not as simple as becoming an Ubermensch, rather, that self-overcoming is a continual process of self-education, a journey of education (Bildungsgang). As the book progresses, we find less and less of the Ubermensch and more and more eternal recurrence. That is what the whole book is about: overcoming the burden of temporality, the sparagmos we endure by being torn between past, present and future, just as Dionysus as Zagreus was dismembered by his father. Nietzsche's struggle in particular was how one can think a philosophy of the future without sacrificing the moment, the Augenblick, which is why Zarathustra moves away from assertive speech and begins to listen and then sing.

Nietzsche would completely reject the idea of 'nature'.

Whether or not interest in him increases or decreases I couldn't say, but certainly his ideas are more relevant than ever.

The pervasiveness of nihilism and what it leads to - ultra-liberal, de-racinated, mono(anti)cultural, "progressive", post-modern anti-society - is more evident than it has ever been.

God is dead. Nietzsche was right and it's shit.