I read this recently. It was really good and left me wanting to dive into the rabbit hole. The author says explicitly however that the "greater mysteries" (as opposed to the "lesser" sort described in the text) are closely guarded, only being taught to worthy students verbally. Essentially the argument being that those unprepared to fully appreciate the information will use it for corrupt purposes. Is there merit to this?
To me, both not being a Christian or a scholar, a lot of what esoteric texts, occultism, etc. put forth feels like speculative role-playing by the more learned person unable to reconcile their wishful spirituality with a knowledge of the void, so to speak. There's an implication that underneath the exoteric myths and allegories, lies something really, really dark. That may be my own projection though.
It's gotten me to shed some superficial criticisms of Christianity that I've carried, but I still struggle to understand many things. Like, for example, the seriousness and certainty with which awareness after death and resurrection are dealt. Anyone here deep into this stuff? What's your take on it? Text recommendations?
>Essentially the argument being that those unprepared to fully appreciate the information will use it for corrupt purposes. Is there merit to this?
Its absolutely true. For example, do you hand a child power tools when first teaching him simple woodworking? Here the hidden powers of the mind are even more dangerous.
The world has enough theologians and philosophers. In the grand scheme of things, they are truly impotent because they are of the world, not beyond it. The true movers and creators are the saints and sages, who for the most part remain hidden.
The difference between these two types of men is self-mastery, or more precisely, control of the senses. Without first mastering the senses through good works and renunciation of the world, attainment of higher powers would destroy the man similar to one who doesn't know how to cook with fire and burns their house down.
Aaron Rogers
Naw esoteric knowledge is a con-game, anyone saying "Ooh I've got the spooky secret wisdom of the ages!" is full of it. But by all means explore it and find that out for yourself.
Jackson Walker
Christ said the path is as narrow as the edge of a razor, and most will fall from it. Also theres they saying, "many are called but few are chosen."
The necessary requirements for attaining higher knowledge is demanding. Most find it easier to simply say that such a path does not exist rather than to devote themselves to treading it.
After all, it is without question the task of all tasks, as it demands exceptional discipline and persistence to conquer the self, (which makes conquering the world seem like a cakewalk in comparison.)
Of course there are countless deceivers and fakes out there trying to exploit and prey upon the well-intentioned, but thats the nature of the world. In order to overcome it, one must overcome all of those things. Those pitfalls and temptations are all part of the path... its not called the "Great Work" for nothing.
Ian Jones
Cool. So where would one start on this narrow path?
Benjamin Perry
You don't, the Vatican was always engaged in whack a mole to crush mysticism and esotericism and Protestantism is a spiritual vacuum.
>Essentially the argument being that those unprepared to fully appreciate the information will use it for corrupt purposes. Is there merit to this? In Vajrayana Buddhism they don't let you learn more advanced tantric methods of meditation until you've "leveled up" so to speak. This is because of several reasons. If you don't know what you're doing you could do something wrong and hurt yourself, or not understand what you're doing, or even worse, you could spread falsehoods to other people. Finally, if you don't know the hidden depths of the practice it could lead to to doubt the truth of Buddhist practices
The last one being key as some of advanced Vajrayana methods involve doing things the Buddha said not to. Namely, monks drinking, eating meat, having sex, having homosexual sex, owning property, and engaging in violence.
In Christianity, it's a bit different because again, the Vatican was always trying to squash estoteric writers before they could get a following going. Catharism is a good example of what the Vatican did not ever want to happen again. Thus most Western mystics had to go underground and cloak their views in layers of parable and mumbo-jumbo to keep the authorities off their backs. A number of these texts are absolutely useless because we don't know how to "decode" them.
Justin Brooks
here,
Instead of recommending ancient traditions which teach preliminary practices which lead to advance meditative work, I believe to truly "start," you must establish yourself as one who walks the path, as general as that sounds.
By that I mean, you must differentiate yourself from the fakes, imposters and those who deceive themselves. There are many fakes who follow ancient teachings, shave their heads, wear the robes, etc. but in their heart they do not sincerely tread the path. Make it your top priority to never become one of those people, always be sincere.
So, in order to be truly sincere, you must have a strong purpose. I cannot tell you what your purpose should be, except that it must be strong and define who you are and where you are going. Also, this is something you must reflect upon constantly, as keeping it in your mind above all other distractions is what makes it powerful enough to overcome all challenges and difficulties presented before you.
From there, everything tends to work out because your innermost foundation is solid as a rock. Do not be too concerned with the particulars of what tradition or teachings is better than the other. Always remember your foundation and things will bend in your favor, even when faced with dire or confusing situations.
Jackson Reed
Laurasia is the answer. It is atlantis and lemuria. More noble than the aryan. More pure than christianity. Astrotheology. Theurgy. Goetia. The more ancient the better. All across the globe we see the wreckage of that lost knowledge. The Greeks, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Indians, the Chinese. Enlightenment is a neolithic phenomena. The enlightenment of modern man is a dead end. It's not a matter of a secret answer. It's a realization of the living mystery which pervades us.
William Allen
Annie Besant is pure bullshit. For the real deal on this subject read the Anonymous Meditations on the Tarot (by Valentine Tomberg), that will get you started properly, not this theosophical nonsense.
Daniel Rodriguez
I am a believer in mystical Christianity, but it is due to my own spiritual journey, not from an instructor. I disagree that the truth should be kept secret, I believe I have a near complete comprehension of God's plan and not much harm is done in misinterpretation or disbelief.
I started with Aldous Huxley's perennial philosophy and began studying the gospel removed from the rest of the bible. It all fits together perfectly.
When you take into consideration the fine-tuning argument, and the hard problem of consciousness, a belief in God definitely seems like the most rational view point, and if there is a God, it would most likely be a mystical one. Out of the mystical religions, I find the most truth in both Hinduism and Christianity, with all the excess baggage stripped away.
Brandon Hernandez
>To me, both not being a Christian or a scholar, a lot of what esoteric texts, occultism, etc. put forth feels like speculative role-playing by the more learned person unable to reconcile their wishful spirituality with a knowledge of the void, so to speak. Yes, essentially. Although they come up with some legit stuff, enlightened spiritual teachers are scam artists, knowingly or not (sometimes both). Because the scam (void, negativity, reflexivity) is at the core of everything, to put it very simply. Deconstruction and some other lines of 'poststructuralist' or 'postmodern' thought, address these obscure matters more intelligently and directly, though unavoidably delving into obscurantism themselves.
Aiden Richardson
> Is there merit to this?
See in addition to this a lot of higher tier mysticism practices are very embarrassing and come off as culty in normal society.
Luke Ward
You can actually nigger-rig a lot of it by understanding less concealed practices of early shamanism and other groups.
Esoteric christianity, kabbalah, shamanism, egyptian rites, etc, are all paths to the same thing in the end.
Learn those less hidden ideas and methods and then see what in Christian practices does or could align with them. That's where you want to start.
Agrippa, Beyond Telepathy, and Mercia Eliad's Shamanism are all worth a read.
Robert Gonzalez
Realise that Agape doesn't mean Love, but something related to scorpio (so it can mean love but also hate and a lot of other things), In 1 corinthians 4 agape is presented as something having scorpio traits, and in 1 cor 13,13: νυνὶ δὲ μένει πίστις, ἐλπὶς, ἀγάπη, τὰ τρία ταῦτα, μείζων δὲ τούτων ἡ ἀγάπη: this means elpis is uranus, pistis is neptune, agape is pluto. Similarily like "Chesed" in old testament relates to Virgo so it can mean mercy, forgivness, perfection, shame, disbelief, accuracy. Agape is Agapete your enemies can aswell mean fuck your enemies. Or tie closely. All 3 religions of age of pisces, christianity , islam, free-masonry are mystical which means their real meaning is hidden.
Grayson Flores
>Esoteric christianity, kabbalah, shamanism, egyptian rites, etc, are all paths to the same thing in the end.
>esoteric christianity gnostic /manicheist elements, means of escaping the world / the tests of God, by a process of literal de-humanisation as to ascend as angels in the place of the fallen ones, thus re-completing the cycle of Creation.
>kabbalah Corrupted forms in European folklore; in Judaic practices is a wide array of numerological and mantric practices via text study, a surrogate cult in place of the missing Temple Worship (once central to Judaism); it relates to basically "reserve" a place in Heaven / in the structure of the Godhead; places life as a net of risks.
>Shamanism Various types of ancestor /pre-ancient practices which relate to an integrative, animistic relation of man to Nature; early humans trying to reintegrate into the flows of Nature after self-conciseness bridged the gap.
>egyptian rites Not talking about late hellenistic hybrids, early egyptian rites presented an aristocratic initiatory path which aimed towards gaining some form of "stasis" in life after death, attaining a celestial place amongst the stars/gods. It also represents some form of disintegration and re-assemblage in a state which virtually defies death.
I don't think they are actually the same thing user.
I'm also have perenialist opinions; but theological and cosmogonical /ontological positions vary too wild between cultures/ rites.
Generalising them as Eliade did (no offence, I love him, but it) also means trivialising a lot of their aspects.
Noah Wilson
You should study the Church Fathers, OP. You will soon see that the "visible Church" has always been the sole dispenser of the Mysteries (also called Sacraments), and that the distinction between "exoterism" and "esoterism" is a false one. Best example is the Eucharist during Mass: it is a memorial (fancy Jewish way of saying the thing that happened is actually happening in front of you, defying space and time) of the Passion, and ends with Communion, in which Christ's blood, body and divinity, under the accidents of bread and wine, is united to us physically and spiritually. To somebody unfamiliar, this sounds quite esoteric; but it is the official teaching of the Church, and as been for two thousand years.
Anyway, I recommend the Church Fathers for a real look into Christian teachings, instead of second hand information.
Logan Wright
>I recommend the Church Fathers for a real look into Christian teachings, instead of second hand information.
You just quoted second-hand information.
OP, the message of Christ has been altered and modified according to the needs of making the actions of Christ from a cult into a full-blown religion.
I agree the Church Father's writings contain relevant information in understanding the Church theology and it's practices; but it is in no way sufficient for one to understand Christ.
Read the word of Christ in both canonical and apocryphal works. Make cross-studies with religions of that time - prechristian elements, judaic sects, babylonian myths. They see the trails in the pagan / Christianisation period, how motifs were build and upon which ground.
The "visible Church" is for the masses and should be as such. The "invisible Church" is the inner sanctum of each and every one of us.
Learn to accept that a symbol has many layers - and none contradicts each other. They are like the peels of an onion - each one representing one level of interpretation. The succeed one another. If you fail to understand concepts such as the resurrection of Christ in a material sense, it is because you are trying to understand one level of reality with the tools from another level of reality - which is bound to fail.
Step inside the psyche.
James Morgan
>I don't think they are actually the same thing user.
A bunch of vague notions concerning paradoxes of existence, expressed through various superstitious fictions? Pretty much the same thing. But I guess they still serve well to those who want to be seen as possessors of deep esoteric knowledge.
I am actually fascinated with the numinous and occult, but they are inextricably linked with deception and trickery. As John the Apostle said: "Believe not every spirit." There is a good reason why most reasonable and educated people often show seemingly irrational hostility to this stuff.
It exists in the cracks, depending on liminal/flux states. It is irrational by its nature.
Joshua Sanders
That isn't proof that the Bible teaches esotericism at all. That's because the Bible doesn't teach it. It teaches election which is commonly misinterpreted as esotericism by unbelieving gnostics. If you have not been drawn by the Father you will not have ears to hear. That's biblical epistemology, it has nothing to do with mysticism or secrecy, it has to do with what God did and what God said. I recommend reading Romans, Mark and John. And suspend your presuppositions if the author didn't share them.
Justin Thomas
Not him, but the Bible does speak of esotericism several times.
Why would the Bible use the world "ekenosen"(literally emptying, kenosis), when Jesus wanted to be filled with God's Will?
The fact that it isn't explained what the emptying means, is esoteric. Emptying himself sounds like he was meditating, and why would he do that when meditation isn't a prescription in the Bible?
Nolan Allen
If one loves God with all their heart, mind, body and soul, then one should be meditating constantly upon the love of God full force, in which if one is "pure in heart"(basically follow the other commandments) they shall see God.
Isaiah Clark
But that's not what the Bible says.
It literally uses the words "emptying" specifically.
Isaiah Cooper
So the Bible teaches esotericism because it didn't explain something and because something sounded like meditation? You're reading into the text. And you're using very odd examples to do that. Also this text, which you haven't cited, isn't even about knowledge.
Owen Gutierrez
>So the Bible teaches esotericism because it didn't explain something and because something sounded like meditation?
That's my interpretation of the text yes? What's wrong with that?
It will clear a lot of your confusion about esotericism.
Eli Jones
>Theosophistry written by a socialist feminist womeme
wew, what is lower than low brow?
Blake Thompson
You still haven't cited the text, but I'm assuming it's Philippians 2 because it's the only place where ekenōsen appears. "Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." The emptying is explained quite clearly. The author is talking about the incarnation of the Son. He emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. The atonement required the infinite God to become a finite Man, so that the eternal punishment for sin could be 1: served completely and 2: imputed onto humans. It could not be just Man serving the punishment since he is not powerful enough to pay back the eternal debt, and it could not be just God serving the punishment since it would not be on behalf of the criminal. This is why we require the God-Man. youtube.com/watch?v=kGZV9cxd5hI That's what this text is highlighting - the incarnation - a plain concept in the New Testament. biblehub.com/greek/2758.htm "Ekenōsen" is a form of "kenoó" and it means more than "emptying". And it doesn't contradict Christ being filled with the will of God. The will of God was the salvation of his people which was achieved through the incarnation. It was in God's will for the Son to lower himself to the human form, to the point of death.
Charles Foster
Interesting. Thank you, but I still think it's a peculiar word to use in such an instance, but that might be bias because of my education in Classical Greek.
