Why do people seem to "grow out" of atheism...

A lot of people I know where were atheist are moving to the idea that all religions are the same. All part of the recent trend in being a hippie I suppose.

The inherent Goodness of Humanity and Reason is probably the biggest assumptions. Human Rights and Equality. These aren't things to be proven, they're things that have to be accepted as axioms.

In the end, you can take any moral assesment from Christianity, and it will probably be the same in Secular Humanism. One side will declare their proof in Human Rights, the other in Jesus.

I assumed those things were proclaimed because they're useful for increasing happiness. Societies that value reason and protect human rights tend to be more desirable places to live.

Also that pic of yours seems to be strawmanning a great deal.

This is pretty accurate. Death/aging are probably the most powerful motivators to find and believe in a deity. This also makes sense when you consider ancient humans, who were always just a couple of bad days away from death.

I'd say the converse is true, too. In this day and age, a young and relatively healthy person has little reason to believe in a deity, due to the world being so safe.

> nothing is better than suffering because it's our only driving force
This is complete bullshit. Scientism-ists are utilitarians/hedonists and they don't see suffering as good.

That's your problem though. It's like Dostoevsky said, without God, then "everything is permitted". You can have your "Christian Values without overt Supernatural elements" all you like, and you can indeed build a society on fundamentally Christian axioms, but it will immediately devolve into chaos. That's what's happening now, look around. Take your morals and your axioms from Christianity and take God out of the picture - what you have left is the law with no authority and it will crumble immediately.

>I assumed those things were proclaimed because they're useful for increasing happiness. Societies that value reason and protect human rights tend to be more desirable places to live.

That's buying into the kool-aid. Why is 'increasing happiness' even a goal? On what grounds do you prove that, other than accepting it as an axiom? Why should a place be desirable to live?

I think most Atheists reject Christianity because of discovering it's supernatural elements can't be proven. But this just show's a bias towards the category 'supernatural' as defined by Atheists. When asked how to prove something like 'Human Rights are Good' or 'Reason is Good', they don't recognize these as axioms without proof. The modern atheist loves to think they only by Reason and Science, but only apply these things toward's axiomatic desires for things like pleasure and safety.

Science and Reason can be used just as easily to destroy the world, yet you don't hear the Secular Humanist crowd advocating for that do you?

Think of the statement in terms of Darwinism. Its only through pleasure/pain responses, and the natural selection exerted through death, that Evolution Functions. The entire edifice of natural selection and evolution are predicated on suffering and death.

I used to instantly dismiss religion as bullshit with no redeeming qualities, but now I find them interesting to read about, their history. I respect that people can benefit from having a religion for many reasons including motivation and the sense of community. I now try and keep an open mind, and would consider myself more agnostic. I don't necessarily believe in a higher power myself, but we don't know anything for certain. In my opinion it doesn't matter if there's a God or not, but they've helped billions of people over time.

But no one with >2 functioning brain cells thinks the shitshow that is evolution is in any sense a good thing.

Uh, because I want to be happy. As do most people. Lol how is that even a question. Even religious people are promised eternal happiness.

Then we're talking about the interplay and duality of pain and enjoyment. Fearing death is as useful (from the point of evolution) as enjoying procreation. This is more or less hedonism. You can't single out just one of those two things.

>Uh, because I want to be happy
Philosopher... easy on the axioms.

>Uh, because I want to be happy. As do most people. Lol how is that even a question. Even religious people are promised eternal happiness.

Religious people are often promised eternal damnation as well.

Look, I'm not trying to advocate for any specific philosophical system here, only that Secular Humanism bears some striking resemblance to Christianity, and that they share some axiomatic assumptions about the purpose of life that can't be proven. They both require a leap of faith, or an ignorance in the fact that they're making unprovable assumptions.

The category 'religion' is a false category. Religions are ideologies, to be considered and weighed like any philosophical system. What's obnoxious about most Atheists is that they think they're no longer operating on faith, that they have found some way of utilizing Pure Reason. Even if that were the case, there is nothing that affirms Pure Reason as the only way to live. Absurdism, Pessimism, and out-right Anti-Human philosophies are still on the table after you've discarded 'the supernatural'.

>asking God to break the rules of reality just for you, one person
>who may or may not even merit it
>not wondering what the world would be like if everyone's prayers were instantaneously answered
OK

Lol. I've been unhappy, and I much prefer happiness. It seems you can't see the forest for the trees.

Carrot and stick. People don't want eternal damnation because they think they'd be tortured forever. Humans, and animals, avoid pain and pursue pleasure.

I never felt god's presence, if he does exist he doesn't seem to interact with the world, and the major religions also are wrong about most of their testable claims. Figured it was a waste of time to believe.

I can easily see people who are a part of a society that abuses them being reactionary and, although they are a part of that society, refuse to let it berate and degrade them- often imposing their own justice, as common law allows. As Faulkner has Cash state about Darl in "As I Lay Dying", its a matter of perspective. The odyssey that the Bundren family was undergoing was utter insanity, and Darl tried to stop it by burning the barn that their mother's coffin was in. In Cash's mind, and perhaps the rational reader as well, if the rest of the family wasn't so bent on completing their mother's final wish, Darl might have seemed perfectly sane in his action to stop the madness. Another example can be found in Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby". The reader is made to know that Gatsby's mansion, when it was first built, the original owner offered to pay to have the surrounding houses roof's thatched to compliment the Gothic style. They all refused, and Fitzgerald makes a point to state that although they may be "de-facto" peasants, Americans are obstinately unwilling to identify as them. An American is taught to believe that Freedom is his or her own God-given right, and will fight a larger, more influential group of society to contend for it. That's part of what being American is, according to Fitzgerald. I happen to agree.

I don't doubt this. But what makes it the basis for a formal philosophical system other than an axiomatic declaration "I want to be happy". If the Atheist position were purely based in Reason and Logic, it would have some sort of bizarro mathematical proof for this declaration.

Reason, if it is to be used purely, can't lay on top of Human Psychology. Otherwise, you can imagine some freak human offshoot, genetically engineered to desire pain and suffering, just like the fruit flies that are engineered to only fly to the left and never make right turns.

>I've been unhappy, and I much prefer happiness.
Me too. Like every other human being ever. But our feels and wants aren't the same as good and evil.

But they don't?

Depends where you live i guess. If you live in a largely secular country no one gives a fuck about religion or atheism and vise versa. Atheism is just the unthinking default.

if you're not agnostic idk about you

>
>I think you'll be hard-pressed to deny that the majority of atheists are reddit-tier fedoras.

Only in the US.

I still have some friends that are stuck in the eternal basement dweller stage and this is pretty true. Whenever I mention religion, even from an objective point of view, I'm just met with "le spaghetti monster xd". I don't really care too much, since I don't push my beliefs on others or expect much from them, but it's always annoying to deal with people who think that they're geniuses and know everything even though the just play video games all day and have not opened a book in years.

Atheists are agnostic.

Why do people seem to "grow out" of religion? From the stories and anecdotes I've gathered it doesn't seem to be that people have some instant of revelation where they "lose God" and abandon religion and realize the "truth" (whatever that is supposed to mean in this context) of atheism, but rather that they simply "grow out of it". Thoughts? Or, how did you personally journey from theism to atheism or vice versa?

>In my experience an encounter with death

What do you mean? Death of someone close? Or being near death yourself?

I don't think most people are ever truly atheists to begin with. Even if they actively identify as an atheist they still believe in some supernatural things without realizing it.

Nice of you to drop by, Satan

Could be either. It's the reality of death entering your mind.

You mean, your brain dies so you become religious?

>Falling for anecdotic evidence.

In civilized countries people don't grow out of religion since they're no longer raised with it, thank God.

>I first became aware of this in my own life,having evolved from pre-teen piety,through teenage skepticism to an interest in the occult at university. Far from experiencing these occult studies as a degeneration of my Scientific education,a backwards slide into atavism,they seemed like an expansion of my mental horizons,as growth beyond the skeptical Scientism of my teens. Nor did it begin with a withering of skepticism;on the contrary,that skepticism increased to the point where it turned upon the principles of Science itself:I witnessed Science itself failing to meet the standards of proof that were demanded of parascience.

>Societies that value reason and protect human rights tend to be more desirable places to live.
Societies can't survive off reason alone. Reason can't give the people of a society the values needed for the preservation and well-being of their society. Human rights, for instance, weren't implemented because of reason, but because of a moral feeling.
On the other hand, the irresponsible application of reason is capable of applying criticism to these values without realizing how important they are, thus destroying the foundations on which society is built.

You don't really "grow out" of it.
In my experience, you just, at some point, have to admit that there is such a thing as a "spiritual experience", which all religions take reference to.
Some just revert back to whatever religion is most convenient for them (like "being spiritual") or they just work that fact into their secular worldview.
Which is the reason why secular Buddhism is on the rise.

Equality and human rights on principle really isn't all that useful for increasing happiness. If we could increase the happiness of 100 people by torturing 1 person, under a universe governed by utilitarian principles we would be obligated to torture that 1 person. But this makes a mockery of human rights. Likewise if would could vastly increase the happiness of 95% of the population by enslaving a small 5% we would be obligated to do so, thus making the concept of equality meaningless. This is why I believe that in universe without God there are no human rights and there is no good reason to care about equality.

>Why do people seem to "grow out" of atheism?
They don't. Where are you getting this from? People are losing rather than gaining faith in god as they realize there's literally no evidence in favor of any God(s) and that we ought not just blindly believe in whatever we're told.

I'm tending more towards the third option of cautious belief in a /vague/ deity, demiurge, or universal monism. To "grow out" of atheism and into Christianity/Islam/Buddhism etc still sounds very silly to me.

I feel a sense of connectedness and wonder more and more, but why should this mean a sudden doctrinal observance of one old faith or another? Why one particular God over another?

I lived in a haunted house when I was in my teens. I've never seen evidence of God, but I can tell you that Absolute Materialism is bullshit.

I grew up without religion or faith.
So I never grew into Atheism/agnosticism nor can I grow out of it.
But recently I've found the appeal of belief in something "greater".
But I think there can be something greater than something outside myself, at least for me. Most people might need god/spirituality, and it's silly to ridicule it.
I wish to one day be able, through willpower, work on and life off of my passions and write eternal books that I dream of making.
To be remembered forever.

Underrated post.

This is why there are Deist beliefs (i.e., God exists but cannot/does not interact with the world, or our section of the world at least, directly). Hell, for all we know, God could be working on the scale of supergalaxy clusters, not on individual planets.

you sound like a faggot

>The way the world is now, I wouldn't be surprised if atheism will face a decline.
I'd say if the world is being idiot-proofed, it should have the opposite effect. Unless you're implying the violent psychopaths of the world aren't just talking shit (which may be the case), then we may yet have the "belief in a higher power" forcibly bombed back into us within our lifetimes. And then maybe another tragedy will bomb it right back out of us! "There is no God that would let this happen!"
It's just another pendulum, like culture and counter-culture. Two sides of the same coin that, by definition, will never see eye to eye. I think the best we can do right now is not kill each-other over it, but that's easier said than done. Hey, I'm doing my part, right? Can inaction be virtuous?

Story time?

>Not a single nation has ever been founded on principles of science or reason. There has never been an example of it, except for a brief moment, through folly. Socialism is from its very nature bound to be atheism, seeing that it has from the very first proclaimed that it is an atheistic organisation of society, and that it intends to establish itself exclusively on the elements of science and reason. Science and reason have, from the beginning of time, played a secondary and subordinate part in the life of nations; so it will be till the end of time.

>Nations are built up and moved by another force which sways and dominates them, the origin of which is unknown and inexplicable: that force is the force of an insatiable desire to go on to the end, though at the same time it denies that end. It is the force of the persistent assertion of one's own existence, and a denial of death. It’s the spirit of life, as the Scriptures call it, ‘the river of living water’, the drying up of which is threatened in the Apocalypse. It’s the æsthetic principle, as the philosophers call it, the ethical principle with which they identify it, ‘the seeking for God’, as I call it more simply.

>The object of every national movement, in every people and at every period of its existence is only the seeking for its god, who must be its own god, and the faith in Him as the only true one. God is the synthetic personality of the whole people, taken from its beginning to its end. It has never happened that all, or even many, peoples have had one common god, but each has always had its own. It’s a sign of the decay of nations when they begin to have gods in common. When gods begin to be common to several nations the gods are dying and the faith in them, together with the nations themselves. The stronger a people the more individual their God.

>There never has been a nation without a religion, that is, without an idea of good and evil. Every people has its own conception of good and evil, and its own good and evil. When the same conceptions of good and evil become prevalent in several nations, then these nations are dying, and then the very distinction between good and evil is beginning to disappear. Reason has never had the power to define good and evil, or even to distinguish between good and evil, even approximately; on the contrary, it has always mixed them up in a disgraceful and pitiful way; science has even given the solution by the fist. This is particularly characteristic of the half-truths of science, the most terrible scourge of humanity, unknown till this century, and worse than plague, famine, or war.
-Dostoyevsky

the spaghetti monster is just a parody, if you get triggered by just a mere joke it means you are insecure about your beliefs, from what you said you are the one bringing up the subject with the sole purpose of trying to feel superior ( that is, based from what I've seen around with other people and assuming you are close to their thinking ). I cannot name a single person who actually feels a genius, even more someone who only plays video games all day and have not opened a book in years ( also I don't think you need to open a book to become a genius, after all you are somewhat born with higher/better capacity for a particular subject )

nice try Luci but not today
also give examples of supernatural things even atheists believe

There's no need to be combative. Most people, whether they're atheist or not have a feeling of purpose and believe in things like fortune and fate. I have seen polls that prove this but I'm not willing to look for it.

>if you get triggered by just a mere joke it means you are insecure about your beliefs
You know, western people are being brainwashed to hate the beliefs of themselves or their ancestors. Trigger is a perfect word for it, it is an installed software. Akin to firewall.

Because they don't believe in god or atheism, just in whatever is handed to them. Yeah they probably got into atheism a rebellion, but it's not like they found god for more honorable reasons.

This is especially the case here, if this board was a thing in the 80s it would be all about heroic gays and atheism, because it's not the stuff we care about, just that the stuff is contrary to society.

Contrarian things these days are not against society. They may be against the state or ideologies, but definitely not against society.

We are witnessing the underground awakening of Logos.

>The category 'religion' is a false category. Religions are ideologies, to be considered and weighed like any philosophical system.

I used to think this, but I can't really agree with this idea anymore. "Ideology", as I've come to understand it, refers to the framework by which people understand the natural and social world, including relations between people. Most religions do include this, but they go beyond ideology by considering the supernatural, life after death (or before birth, if we include things like cycles of reincarnation), and other things of which humans are normally incapable of perceiving. Religions have a transcendent element that ideology alone lacks.

>was a devout Christian till about age 21
>started fire academy at age 17
>worked as FF/EMT for 13 years
>seen a lot of death, dismemberment, pain, suffering, etc etc
>had my brushes with death

Over time I just became an apathetic atheist. Sure, there might be something after, but most likely it's just an empty nothing. The human mind has a hard time comprehending that it might not exist anymore, so maybe it looks to religion for comfort.

Shit idk. A lot of folks I see die or are dying are religious and mumble hymns or prayers under their breath. It never helps. But then the meth head that's started K2 has overdosed for the 7th time and he still gets to walk around and be a degenerate.

Embrace your loved ones. Spend as much as time with them as you can. Have good times and make some good memories with them. Most likely, there's no god and no afterlife.

I guess I'll share my personal story. It's long and drawn out. Drugs, and my Hindu best friend. End of story. Did I say it was long?

>being literally spooked

> You know, western people are being brainwashed to hate the beliefs of themselves or their ancestors
user, u sure?

>An atheist can't be a functioning part of society
Do people really believe this shit?

If they are "growing out of it" and cannot refer to a specific idea that convinced them of one or the other, then they were and are misled agnostics.

A small child might not believe in God but is unlikely to feel the need to describe this. In their (pre)-teens people have enough conceptual ability and life experience to recognize unprovable claims and connect them to human hypocrisy and mental weakness, making atheism a very logical conclusion. Afterwards, they learn to recognize the shortcomings of positivism and the correspondence theory of truth. They might also recognize religion as part of human condition and approve of it as such, sometimes actually lying about not being atheist. At this point they've had their share of absurdity, anxiety, and loss.

Most people eventually grow tired of being insufferable tryhard know-it-all hypocrites who rightfully receive the mockery and scorn of everyone around them so they abandon atheism or else at least shut up about it.

Fucking please, negro. Atheism doesnt mean declaring your hatred of religion. Everyone has transcendent, spiritual, and ineffable moments. Atheism is simply not resorting to god as an explanation.

I don't know if atheism is really the problem. The problem is when atheism presupposes itself as greater than religion and as a result denies the message from it. The underlying messages, found in a book like the bible for example, are unparalleled in their ability to express the human condition and experience in relation to the natural world.

Even outside of the spiritual aspects of the ideology, which has merits as well, the allegorical representation of being is priceless from both a rational perspective as well as a profoundly practical one.

Militant atheism throws the baby out with the bathwater. Of course they can argue that the good things about religion could & should exist without the dishonest, dangerously ambigous stuff, but that's gonna take a lot of preaching.

so you stop believing god because you didnt get your way.