Good afternoon Veeky Forums. It's been a while since my last thread, but now that the holidays are over I have some time away from the counter to post. Feel free to ask any questions you may have about cuts of meat or anything else related to the field and I'll do my best to answer what I can in a timely fashion.
That being said- the butcher is in; AMA Veeky Forums
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What are the best cuts of human?
what is a New York strip steak?
Is it safe to eat meat past their expiration date? What about cured meat?
tools you would recommend to cut and portion a deer (preferably cheap )
Someone always seems to ask this question... Humans are overstressed and often eat terrible foods. I doubt as to any quality of any of the meat from a human.
The New York strip steak is a cut that comes from the strip loin. It is from sections 1, 2, and 3 of the short loin from the beef chart that I've provided. The short loin can also be used to produce t-bone and porterhouse steaks. The New York strip steak is also called a 'top loin steak' in some areas, and in the UK I believe they also call it a sirloin... To each their own, I suppose.
That depends on a variety of variables. I don't work with lunch meats, so I won't delve into that area... but if you're talking about general supermarket beef the dates are often close to what the meat should be consumed in. Smoked or cured meats, such as bacon, often get another week or so after their use-by date that they can still be consumed without the opportunity of food-borne illness.
To make the easiest work of it without getting too expensive I would use a boning knife, a cimeter (a breaker-style knife would work too), and probably a hacksaw of some variety. You can skin the animal with a filet knife if you're careful; though you might also want to include a skinning knife if you're worried. A cimeter and boning knife can probably handle the rest of the work though (aside from breaking down the bones of the carcass; which is where your saw comes in handy).
You'd also want some variety of bucket/container to catch all of the blood/guts/fluids that will fall out of the carcass while you're working on it. If you're hanging it to work on it, you'll also need two S-hoods or a gambrel to hold the animal in place while you're working on it.
I can only grill meat on a george foreman grill, I can marinate though, what is the cheapest cut of steak I can get away with?
What is your stance on grass fed vs corn fed cows? Judging by what I have eaten, grass fed produces a deeper flavour of beef and far tastier dairy, while corn fed produces far better marbling in the beef. In America and Japan, marbling seems to be prized above all else.
Can I marinade the freeze; or should I freeze, thaw, then marinade?
What's the best price/lean ratio cut?
Do you have any good guides for goat butchery?
Where can I get a 109a at a decent price?
Marinating the steak will help continue softening the tissue/breaking down the meat for cooking- so you do get a few extra options for cooking. As far as a cheap steak, I know some that find the top round steak (marinated for two days) to be a fair cut for the grill. You could also use a flank or flat iron for similar reasons, but the top round is typically much less expensive. They won't be as tender as your strips, dels, filet, etc. but they also won't be near as expensive; so the comparison is often difficult.
Grass feed and pasture fed meats tend to be rather different than some of the other cattle that you can buy. The marbling is (often) much lower in these beefs, so the seasons that you put on take on more adaptation than the more well marbled meats. Traditionally speaking, lean meats taste more like the seasonings you add to them whereas the more well marbled meats tend to taste more like the animal that they come from (fat is flavor).
Corn fed meats are often "corn finished" meaning that the vast majority of its diet has been other items, but nearing their sale date they are fed a much larger diet of grain/corn in order to fatten them up for the highest prices possible when being sold wholesale.
Japan's Kobe beef is a very detailed and intricate process- though the steer used for such a procedure also play a part...
I try not to freeze any of my meats. That being said, If I do thaw meats from the fridge, I try to use them as soon as they're thawed because of concerns of shelf life. If that's the case, I would probably marinade it first rather than take a chance thawing to marinade. Someone else might have a better answer though- I'm largely a from-fresh cook/cutter.
Most of the inexpensive cuts with less fat are less tasteful and are tougher. If you're buying the meat to grind and want a decent lean content, buying a whole bottom round yields around 85% lean weight. Otherwise it's a roast though...
I own a book about processing of goats, lamb, and a few other animals. I believe the book was written by Adam Danforth- it's a blue book. Definitely a good book to own if you're interested in that sort of thing.
I don't use the numbering system in my locality. I know off hand that 109 is the rib, but I had to check my NAMP book to check into the specifics about the specialty trimming. I order those in as capless ribs; bone-in. More or less a more properly trimmed standing rib roast (feather bones removed is always a good idea). I only ever have to remove feather bones from my aged meats at the shop; so I suppose we're rather spoiled.
Standing rib roasts (or whole ribs, really) rarely go on sale at my local stores, so I'm not sure the best way to advise you on a lower price. Typically when you find a less expensive rib it's because the marbling is less than pristine. I used a similar roast (and transformed it) for dinner a few days ago for the neighbors. I had to pay $9.99/lb for it though- so I'm not sure what "decent pricing" is in your area- but around here that would be considered a decent rate for such a quality roast.
Is your bandsaw any different from one used to cut wood?
>$9.99
The people I was talking to wanted to sell me one for 23 dollars per pound, so, yeah, $9.99 is a decent price. I have a mini fridge that I have rigged to accept a digital input on the thermostat from Johnson Controls. I wanted to try my hand at dry adding a large cut.
>Adding
Aging
I'd like to avoid blade-tenderized tier meat.
What is the best time of day/day of week to buy meat, when is it the worst?
whats the best kind of cut for making schnitzel? like veal and pork schnitzel?
This year the acorn yield was great in my hardwood forest area and the deer I killed and butchered had a huge amount of fat on it. My question is why does a deer feeding mostly on acorn have fat that tastes like a dog's ass whereas the hogs fed on acorns in Spain and Italy have fat that sends you into heaven after one bite? Doesn't make sense to me.
I often hear flat iron is the best steak for frying. Is this true? Also what are your thoughts on venison?
The bandsaw we have at work is specifically designed for cutting meat and features blades for boned and boneless meats. I hate the boneless blade and we rarely use it because the other cutters hate it too. It's easier to use our knives to cut them under most circumstances and it also cuts more evenly.
I've done a good bit of woodworking over the years and know that there are differences between the two- but I've never delved deep enough in order to figure out all of the difference between the two. The meat catching area is definitely a nice addition for the meat saw. Aside from that, I couldn't tell you. I know a few people that have converted meat saws to wood saws and vice versa in the past though.
If you're getting a rib for aging, you'll want those feather bones on there. The bones provide an added level of protection for the meat so your losses are less when you clean it all down for cooking/serving. We use the saw to take off the chine bone and cut lightly into the area around the feather bones to remove them before shelling the rib to make it boneless for aged steaks.
Aging takes some knowhow- but the most important aspects are constant ventilation, a constant, cool temperature, and a relatively dry humidity. Those ensure that the water is being wicked away and that negative growths are minimized.
Each shop has their own best times. For holidays I find that three days prior works the best OR the day before the holiday, but in the last few hours of the store being open as far as business levels are concerned. It's hard to give a blanket statement for all shops though.
We do all of our store changes mid-week, so those are often the best times to get it (when the deals are fresh and the supply has just shipped in).
What's your favorite meat to beat?
For dry ageing at home, I would recommend watching the five videos in this series first: youtube.com
Lots of good information and ideas as well as mistakes to learn from.
When I'm making my pork schnitzel, I use thin cuts from the center of the pork loin. It's lean meat with a little fat around the edge. If I want them larger, I can cut a little thicker and pound them out as well (or butterfly them). As far as veal is concerned, it is harder to get the nicer cuts of veal in my area, so I am confined to using veal cutlets (typically cut from veal bottoms; eye/bottom round). It helps if they're cut crossgrain, but it's not the same as a real German wienerschnitzel.
I can honestly say I've never had venison fed on acorns before. I'm not sure why that would be the case. However, the taste of a meat is defined by its fat content- and typically the venison we love and pine for is very lean. It's a possibility that the fattier venison is more potent in its gamey nature, thus rendering the meat less favorable to the average consumer. That'd be my educated guess on the matter.
The flat iron is a good steak, no doubt. I think TV shows overhype it though. Just about anything (with a good cook) can turn out wonderfully. Butchers used to grind the flat iron with the shoulder clod years ago because we didn't find value in the cut. Once it was desired, we saved it, trimmed out the now valuable flat iron, and then cut out the inedible spot in-between the steaks in order to get two good flat iron steaks.
They're thin and have decent marbling, so they're definitely not a bad steak. I've used a pan to fry a lot of steaks over the years- I think there are better options available.
As far as venison is concerned, I love it. If I'm doing ground venison, however, I do add a little pork fat to it to make sure it has a good consistency and that it won't dry out during the cooking process. I don't mind some gamey taste to my food, though I know others do- so I don't have any hindrance to eating venison (or just about any other animal, really).
I haven't seen these before- but they look accurate.
Thanks, man!
Sometimes when I buy pork belly there are small balls of cartiledge(?) embedded in it. Why is that?
I just picked up a fully cooked half ham b/c it was half off.
Don't really have a party I can bring it to. Any ideas as to how to prepare it besides lunch meat and egg and ham?
thanks!
Smoke that beast and make some killer baked beans.
>Put some in Mac and cheese
>Make a high-class hurgin
>Take the bone out and fuck it
Lately I've been eating chuck eye steaks and I think they're pretty great as a cheaper alternative to ribeye. On the beef chart you provided where would the chuck eye come from? The boneless chuvk eye roast? Also, I've heard there is only one chuck eye steak per cow. Is that true? Opinions on chuck eye steak?
Also are you familiar with beef from HEB grocery stores? If so, any opinions on their overall quality and pricing?
This is pure sex..
May have to do that with some of it.
Thanks 4chinny - you never disappoint
It's just my wife and I. We don't eat but a meal a day or so. Trying to think of something that'd make us gobble it down and not throw it out.
Like the other guy said. Homemade mac n cheese is no fucking joke. Chunks of your ham in it would be amazing dude. Grilled ham n cheese sammiches are also a good idea.
True - it's just this ham is big enough for 2+ casseroles.
You can always freeze the beans after you've made a bunch.
Carve a face into it and call it a ham-o-lantern
I can't say that I've ever worked with a pork belly that had things stuck to it/inside of it. I know that pork bellies can contain nipples- perhaps that is what you're finding?
You've already had some good advice on what to do with your ham- I suggest the mac and cheese approach. However, if you're looking for something different, you could use the ham in a ham and been soup (though I typically use ham hocks/smoked shanks for their flavor profile). That, or as Frank from Always Sunny would say- you could make a rum ham!
The cut you've got pictured there is also called a chuck del (chuck delmonico) in addition to your branding of chuck eye. It's actually the end cut from a chuck roast (which butts up against the delmonico)- thus giving it the marbling, the beautiful swirl, and its tenderness. As far as a budget steak, they're definitely a hit for quite a few of the customers that come into our shop. While they are uncommon, you can get a few of them per beef. Each chuck roll has the opportunity to get one (and on some occasions two) chuck del/chuck eye steak. There are instances, however, where the steak doesn't look good and it ends up being ground- so you can't always trust the piece to yield a good steak (depending on your packing plant or butcher).
On the chart, the cut would come from more or less the intersecting point between 2 from the chuck section and 2 from the rib section of the animal. The chuck eye roll/roast is the middle section of the chuck roast with the outer layer (underblade) removed.
As far as HEB grocery stores, I have never been to one, nor have I seen one in my area. Sorry!
Make split pea and ham soup
Wow, thanks for the info on the chuck del! A couple more questions if I may. You've likely answered these before in other threads, but what is your personal favorite cut for steak. Also, where are you located?
If I was interested in being a butcher and one day opening my own shop, how would you recommend I go about learning the ins and outs of the trade?
Thanks, butcher. What steaks would you recommend for pan frying if not flat iron?
Is a tomahawk ribeye for $80 worth it? What cheaper cuts have a nice fat content (not necessarily marbled fat)
I can get 12 lbs of pork belly cheap, but it'll come with the skin and last time I had a hell of a time getting skin off even 5lbs. How can I find a butcher to do it for me? why can't the place that sells it take the skin off? how do I find cheap (under $4 per lb) pork belly without skin?
Absolutely.
Personal favorite steak is the ribeye filet; basically the heart section of the delmonico- lots of flavor, great marbling, tender texture.
Favorite steak on a budget: sirloin strip/sirloin cap steak. For a long time it was much cheaper and it is an awesome cut. Now that it's gaining popularity the cost is going up- but the marbling, flavor, and versatility of the steak are all great.
I am located on the East Coast of the US.
There aren't a lot of shops in my area that do traditional butchering anymore- most of them do boxed beef. My shop does boxed beef anymore as well- though I also do processing for hunters (deer and the like). If you can find a shop that is looking for a 'meat apprentice', that would be your best bet into learning about any sort of meat cutting.
If you're lucky enough to have a traditional shop in your area, offer to do menial tasks or try to get them to let you shadow. You might sacrifice some of your free time, but you will also get the chance to learn more about a trade skill that is on its way out.
Also, the Scott Rea project is a pretty great online resource, and the Adam Danforth books are also good reads.
If you're looking for inexpensive options, chuck delmonico (chuck eye) steaks are pretty decent. Shoulder tender steaks are also pretty good- though they're often left as a roast for cooking and then they're cut down. Sirloin steaks and sirloin cap steaks are also often less expensive steaks that will work pretty well in the pan.
Really, you can cook almost any steak in the pan if you've got the knack for it.
In reality, I'm not too big of a fan of the tomahawk ribeye. You pay a lot for the extra bone that's attached. A Texas style chop is more realistic (think about frenching a single rib rib roast)- you get to eat more of it, and you still have a handle to grab. Typically Texas style chops weigh around 2-2.5 pounds as well, so they should feed even a healthy eater......
(cont.)
Cheap cuts with good fat content? Most of the cheap cuts are meats that take longer to cook or need special considerations (such as marinading/brining) to make them more tender and palatable.
The typical cheap cuts are: eye round steaks, bottom round, top round steaks, and sometimes chuck steaks, or even chuck eye (chuck del) steaks. The chuck eye is starting to get a bit more popularity around here so the cost is moving up. Out of all of these steaks, the only one that has that extra fat and is tender is the chuck eye steak. The rest are lean, dry, or both.
Historically cheap cuts like flank steak, flat iron, and skirt steak have all risen in price in recent years and even the sirloin steak (the "cheap, quality steak") is beginning to get costly.
Most of the steaks with better marbling and more fat are higher cost steaks, unfortunately.
Pork belly is often sold with the skin on (pork belly, rind on) since people like to make cracklings with it. I'm not sure of many places in the area that sell pork bellies with the rind off. That being said, most times the rind is removed after the meat has been smoked (as it is easy to separate the fat seams and connective tissues at this point). Not sure that this will help you, but it's definitely a good way to do it.
I'm not sure if you'll find someone who wants to take the fat off your belly or not, but some of the old fashioned butchers are happy to do it if they get to keep the skin (often you must buy the belly from them in the first place though). Most small stores buy their bellies with the skin on because it's less expensive for them and it makes a good margin to leave it there. That, and customers often buy it for cracklings...
I hope you manage to find a spot in your local area that can find what you need and can get it to you at a good rate. Remember- you want pork belly, rind off.
Thanks for all of the questions tonight Veeky Forums. I'm headed out for the evening but I will return in the morning to answer more questions. Keep posting and I'll get around to you as soon as I can.
With that said, the butcher is out.
Good morning Veeky Forums. Thanks for your questions yesterday. I'll be looking forward to answering more today.
For at least a few hours, the butcher is in.
When I was a kid growing up in the midwest, the grocers had full scale butchering operations. I can remember seeing whole carcasses hanging in the meat dept. and the butchers with red stained aprons. Why do you think that stopped?
What's the most butch you've ever done in your life?
I know you've answered questions very similar to this, but I prefer extremely lean cuts to get the most out of my seasoning.
What is the best cut in a lean/cost ratio? I'll be pan frying it.
When I was younger it was still popular to have hanging beef in stores in my area as well. The main problem with hanging carcasses is that it is time consuming to go through them. You would buy a side (or quarter) of beef and need to part the whole thing out. This took time- and as we know, time is money. Additionally, it was much more difficult to teach apprentices how to work around the entire carcass of the animal without having losses.
In addition, regulations surrounding grocery store and supermarket beef have changed over the years to make it more difficult for such practices to be done. I know of a few local butcher shops that do everything from sides of beef- but more stores that have beef either pull it in prepackaged or they order sub primal portions and cut them down into the steaks they're looking for.
In reality, being able to order 80 pounds of strip loins for steaks is a lot more feasible than having eight sides of beef hanging around in the back. Storing logistics aside, cryo-vac meats also make the shelf life longer and assure a fresher product.
It's a shame to see the old ways go, but it's better for the average joe in the current format.
I once butchered a deer for a friend who had claimed to have field dressed the animal and had adequately drained it. It was dumb, but I trusted him without inspection. While hoisting the deer and hoisting it onto the gambrel I found out that he had indeed forgotten to drain the carcass. I was doused in a shower of blood which stained my clothes and splashed my face and mouth. I saw a few startled stares from my friends to which I merely took a swig of my bourbon and stated, "what are you standing around for? We have work to do, right?". While it wasn't the most comfortable of working accommodations, I did still finish the butchering process before I went home for a (well deserved) hot shower.
That's the 'most butchery' moment I can think of for the time being.
If you're looking for the absolute cheapest and leanest meats without regard to tenderness, the eye round steak is very lean and has little quality as a steak- but it can be seasoned. Additionally, the top round steak will have modest marbling and while more tender than an eye round, it won't boast of any desirable steak qualities. Marinades would suit a top round well (or some variety of tenderizing). Bottom round steaks often have moderate marbling as well, but their texture is rather tough.
I find that the sirloin is truly a 'middle' steak from the animal- one that has decent marbling, is texturally sound, and often comes at a fair price. However, I'm not sure what the budgeting you're considering as a fair cost is.
Sirloin pieces also take well to seasoning, marinades, and can be used in a variety of ways (stir fry, steak, or roast) with much success.
Human meat would be pretty terrible.
For one, our fat isn't stored in our muscles. We have separate fat deposits so we wouldn't have nice marbling that beef has.
We also don't have defined fast/slow muscle areas. Our muscles are a mix of both so we'd have pretty homogeneous cuts.
Our biggest muscles are our leg and back, but they're nearly always in use keeping us upright and walking so they'd be tough like beef chuck.
If I were to pick cuts, I'd definitely go for upper body cuts. Human osso bucco might be pretty good. Forearm would be good too, but there's no animal equivalent. It'd be all twitch fiber and very lean.
I have a hunch though that meat taken from a body builder, the erector spinae would be a particular tasty cut. The source of your core's explosive movement but also standing stability.
Cooking human would take a new kind of knowledge and a lot of experimenting. There's no other animal quite like us.
I want to start eating my meat raw. Do you know anybody in your community or butcher circle that's into this?
I have a local fresh market nearby where they claim the meat is fresh, organic, and never frozen but when I casually mentioned eating the cuts raw to the butcher he said it was a really bad idea. Not sure if he was playing it safe because he wouldn't wanna recommend it and get sued, or maybe the meat is actually not that fresh and he doesn't recommend it. Opinion on this?
I did grow up in southern Chile where we drink raw blood and sometimes eat some of organs raw so it's not that culturally weird to me personally.
Nice pasta broski
I don't know many people that eat all of their meat raw. I have some friends that eat beef tartare, or will take a small nibble of something off the block while working- but nothing substantial. Supposedly the appendix used to aid in the processing/digestion of raw food, and that's why they're all but useless now. I don't know that for sure, but I've heard it said a few times now.
Most people won't entice you to eat raw meat- especially your local butcher. Most likely that's due to food codes and USDA/FDA regulations of what we're supposed to suggest to people. All of our literature has to include 'safe cooking temperatures' where I work- despite the fact that most people stopping in to my location eat medium rare/medium.
I also wouldn't recommend to my customers to eat raw meat unless it was something they've done their entire life. The chance of food borne illness is too high and would come back on my shop if someone became ill.
I've never been to Chile, but I have heard of similar eating habits up north as well (eating freshly harvested organs). I've never done it, but I also don't intend to try.
You could check around with a few other people, but I am still on the side of your local market as far as not eating raw meats. Mostly because I haven't tried it myself, but also again because of FDA guidelines and knowing what can happen to my customer if he gets food poisoning/food illness from something from my shop.
Best cut for cats?
Thanks for your reply. Yes, it makes sense that they wouldn't recommend it for obvious reasons, I just thought since you're connected to a circle of meat eaters, you might know some who eat it raw. But I understand that since your art pretty much revolves around cutting animals in a certain way while having in mind which cut works for which cooking method, you wouldn't be concerned with eating it raw.
There are a good amount of people out there who are into it though and speak highly of the benefits; heck, one of the oldest women to live lately, Emma Morano, ate raw eggs and raw meat daily.
As far as taste goes, I definitely recommend eating fresh liver raw, especially from a calf, you'd be surprised how nice it tastes compared to cooked liver. Of course you really want to trust your meat though.
Anyways, best of luck to you and thanks for what you do; really looking around my city hoping to find a Butcher bro like you for a decent meat connect.
How dirty is lamb or goat meat on average?
For example chicken and pork needs to be cooked completely.
Why won't you sell me pork fat to make lard? My butcher says making it yourself is 'dangerous' and only wants to sell me the pre-rendered lard in his refrigerated section. I want those delicious cracklin's to snack on after making lard.
My neighbor has horses.
Twice in the last 9 or 10 years she's asked me to dispatch a horse that either was extremely old or got hit by a car.
If she asks me this again I want to secretly taste the horse before I bury it for her, What is the best cut to taste and what is the easiest cut to get? I don't want to spend hours butchering her horse and her catch me, She thinks of these things like pets.
Those could be tapeworm cysts.
I got this eye of round for $3 a pound. Do discount supermarkets inject anything weird into their beef? It was from smiths on the west coast
I don't usually think about feeding cats raw meat. Outdoor cats will often eat fresh meat, but most indoor cats end up eating processed wet or dry food.
What I do know is that cats aren't able to have old meats and they also shouldn't really be getting ground meats either. That being said, I do not own any cats- so I am otherwise unfamiliar with their dietary needs. I'd suggest taking a trip to the interwebs to find out more about raw meat for cats. Sorry mate.
Best of luck finding your butcher bro. We're definitely out there- sometimes we're just harder to find.
Poultry needs to be cooked completely, that is true. This was also true for pork until more recent years when it was decided that you can cook pork to medium or medium rare if it's fresh enough. I would recommend medium over medium rare since the texture should be slightly nicer.
Lamb can be cooked medium rare unless you're using ground meat, which should then theoretically be cooked until at least 160 degrees Fahrenheit. Goat is typically cooked in the same manner. Some will tell you that goat meat is gamier than lamb or other meats- so that will be something to consider if you're planning on getting some goat meat.
My shop actually gives away unneeded pork fat. A customer (that knows about it) can stop in, request a portion of fat, and receive it when they stop into the shop at no cost. Cracklins, to the best of my knowledge, come from pork skin getting crispy rather than lard- but I could have been told incorrectly over the years.
Most of the people in the US think of horses as pets- so I know where you're coming from... not the easiest thing to get around if someone is spying on you or watching your movements. Horse meat is pretty common in a lot of cultures outside of the US. I haven't had it myself, but I know quite a few people who have. Though the equine and bovine are different species, the cuts and the usage of the muscles in the body are rather the same.
That being said, the tenderloin would be the most tender portion to get. The easiest cut to get should be the boneless loin (more or less strip steaks). It would be directly off the back of the animal (like a backstrap on a deer).
We could talk further about this if you'd like to know more.
Whoops- forgot to respond to you in the last post. Sorry about that!
To the best of my knowledge, supermarkets have to acquire meats that meet USDA sanctions and regulations; and as such they also all bear a sign from the qualified establishment were it was inspected. Therefore, it is difficult to get meats that would be injected with any level of 'weird' products. I have never worked for a deep discount supermarket, so I cannot say with 100% certainty whether my claim would hold water there or not... but my logical conclusion would be that they would probably be short down rather quickly if they were caught breaking the laws- especially those pertaining to FDA/USDA inspection.
Some stores, however, will use meat glue to make cheaper cuts look like more expensive cuts by rolling or otherwise fabricating multiple small pieces of whatever is sitting around to look like something more prestigious. I have also never used meat glue, nor have any of the stores in my area that I am aware of- but I have seen specials on TV and on the internet showing chains and small stores using it to help keep their margins higher...
$3 per pound for just about any meat in today's market seems like a pretty good deal to me- even if it's just ground meat or round meat. Even the buyer's guide for bottom rounds is closer to $2.65/lb right now for my area (when buying by the case).
Sorry I don't have anything concrete for your store- I am East Coast based, and have never shopped at a Smiths before.