I'm so sick of this. The novel MAY have arisen independently in Japan with Murasaki's "Genji" (c.1010) - but stop pretending the novel did not exist over 1000 years earlier in Ancient Greece and Rome. Granted many ancient novels have vanished but FIVE survive complete from Ancient Roman times including "Satyricon" by Petronius (50 AD), "The Golden Ass" by Lucius Apuleius (150 AD - read it and keked aloud - great book) and Longus' "Daphnis and Chloe" (late 2nd century AD). This novel-writing tradition continued in Byzantine times where novels were still written centuries before Murasaki Shikibu.
So why does this idea still exist? Are (((they))) behind it, to keep undermining the West? Really makes no sense to me.
Nolan Turner
There were lots of women writers in Europe as well: Anna Comnena, Marie de France, Magery Kempe, et al. Sappho predates them all of course, let's not forget her.
David Roberts
I'm not compelled.
Aaron Miller
how do you know some cavemen did not write novels nerd
Carter Perez
they got all their novels from the aliens why would they write more
Gabriel Morgan
Mate, I study classics for a living. I know what you're talking about, and you're getting really flustered over nothing. People redefine what a "novel" is all the fucking time. If you point out ancient novels, they'll move the goalposts and just say "the first modern novels" or something similar.
Zachary Ross
>Satyricon >complete
We have one tenth of the original text.
Charles Reyes
>he believes western civilization is actually a part of his heritage and not a Renaissance fabrication
What's it like being such a brainlet that you appeal to 2000+ year old literature to affirm your racial insecurities?
Josiah Perez
And then you can move the goalpost too: "But Satyricon is actually more modern than [your first modern novel], hohoho!"
Isaac Stewart
>Ancient Greece and Rome >The west
Aiden Clark
Fuck that. I'm not invested in defining abstracts terms like "novel." I'm interested in discussing what makes them all such moving, memorable, and human fictions
Also fuck off back to your containment board pleb
Elijah Jenkins
>Also fuck off back to your containment board pleb
?
Owen Nguyen
You're obviously a jew making that anti-white argument while posting a pic of the jew who doesn't belong anywhere near western literature.
Robert Clark
You kidding?
Cooper Turner
>You're obviously white making that racist argument while posting a pic of the white guy who doesn't belong anywhere near PoC literature. Has it ever occurred to /pol/ that they sound like total ninnies?
Logan Hernandez
No.
Jeremiah Collins
Didn't Japan borrow wholesale from China when they were creating "their" culture?
Judge not lest ye be judged etc.
Adrian Brooks
You need to stop your anti-white filth around here, pedoberg.
Carter Gutierrez
Psf, talk about not getting it.
David Diaz
Spengler is a crypto-Jew, as are all Germans.
Ryan James
>are (((they))) behind it to keep undermining the west?
Jason Evans
What they mean is that Genji bears resemblance to the novel as we know it post-Don Quixote. Yes romances and satires and proto-picaresque prose works have gone way back, but they have their own designations and trust me the distinction is not mere semantics.
Joshua Sullivan
>and trust me the distinction is not mere semantics. yeah it is
Asher Morris
In the Genji wikipedia they specify the first 'psychological' novel whatever that means
Carson Lee
/pol/ destroyed this board
Leo Diaz
>look ma I'm being i r o n i c
Easton Bennett
That post didn't even mention Japan, just pointed out the futility of identity-formation based on the idea of "Western Civ"
Hunter Gray
The jew-aware on here come from places not related to pol and many are homegrown. The question is why you are so far behind. You one of those oft-mentioned "brainlets," boy?
Josiah Cruz
The difference between the satyricon and Don Quixote is the difference between Anglo-Frisian and early modern English. It is not insignificant. Even if you disagree with the distinction that experts in their field have settled upon, do you at least understand the above reasons of why they might say that?
Alexander Myers
I'm not OP, genius.
Luis Ross
ironic shitposting is still shitposting
Owen Gomez
You're obviously a jap making and anti-white argument
Sebastian Barnes
yeah you are lit is just the two of us
James Perez
What I'm saying is, that everyone's identity-formation is specious to some degree.
Nicholas Garcia
>implying you're not me
We are superior
Oliver Allen
how good are the ayy novels?
Leo Rogers
>Dude everyone who doesn't like Jews needs to fuck off back to /pol/ Why don't you like Voltaire?
Gavin Lewis
He's a liberal smug fucking faggot.
Benjamin Young
#notalljews
Andrew Adams
>essays existed in Japan before Europe
This is what really struck me. How does someone unironically believe this? They can't. It was written for some kind of psyops.
Adam Jenkins
the first redditor
Carson Hall
>I-I didn't even like Voltaire! >I'm a """""""""""conservative""""""""""""who LIKES Jews
Connor Cox
voltaire is shit and don't post 774
Jack Perry
Why do teens use "know your meme" instead of just using memes they already know?
Thomas Perry
Why are modern day conservatives more liberal than Voltaire?
Josiah Long
FACT: A novel is any literary (meaning textual) work of fiction in predominantly prose form 40,000 or more (English equivalent) words long.
Angel Lee
I'm no conservative, buddy.
William Adams
I don't know, I read thirty pages of Candide and tossed it in the bin because it was douglas adams grade redditcore so I have no interest in what Voltaire thought about anything.
David King
> I didn't like the novel he made for $ therefore Voltaire a shit First of all, most people should be bored by Candid because at this point everything in that book is a cliche, but if you can't appreciate the book in context to it's influence at release then you're beyond a brainlet
Michael Green
Btw, Karl Marx is jewish.
Dominic Morgan
You didn't point out anything, you just made a baseless claim combined with a meme pic.
Alexander Flores
>douglas adams grade redditcore This is precise and it baffles me seeing this piece of shit of a satire unironically recommended on /lit sometimes, shit like
>One fine spring morning he took it into his head to take a walk, and he marched straight forward, conceiving it to be a privilege of the human species, as well as of animals in general, to make use of their legs how and when they pleased.
is beyond nauseating, the sheer fucking smugness of it.
Brody Torres
>smugness That's your buzzword, isn't it? You insecure prick.
Dylan Barnes
>They're not rocks Marie, they're minerals
Lincoln Moore
It is a lot easier when you distinguish prose from the novel. In that case, Genji is just a prose narrative while the first novels were written in the 17th or 18th centuries in Western Europe. Personally, I think books such as Don Quixote, Pilgrim's Progress, and Oronooko, are novel-like, but not as recognizable as those from the 18th century such as Pamela, Clarissa, Robinson Crusoe, etc.
The attribution to Don Quixote as the first novel is dubious because there are no other Spanish works from that period which we also recognize as modern novels. On the other hand, in 18th century England, you had Defoe, Richardson, Fielding, Sterne, Swift, etc. who are undeniably novelists.
There's also the whole debate over the difference between what constitutes a novel and a romance, which is something you learn about more in graduate school. In the 19th century, the term "romance" was still used to describe works by authors such as Hawthorne and Sir Walter Scott. The reason why I don't label Don Quixote as the first novel is because it was a satire of chivalric romances, which was a genre quite popular throughout Europe and were usually written as lengthy prose narratives (a satire is always grounded in the genre which it satirizes). To this day, you see the word "romance" preserved in other European languages' names for "novel' e.g. roman in French and German, romanzo in Italian, etc. Spanish is one of the few languages that calls it novela as we do in English.
tl;dr you'll want to research the history of the word "novel" and see how it went from being used to describe a specific type of prose narrative and then came to be a broad term used to describe all prose narratives above a certain length.
Carson Baker
oh wow I didn't know
guess i'm a #redpilledpede now
Kevin Robinson
So the Bible is a novel?
Grayson Ward
Rabelais predates Cervantes and you can't argue that Rabelais wrote romances.
John Wilson
if millions have died in the name of religion and even modern science, what could an early caveman genius could have known and its version of history? something you cant possibly reveal today because it predates all 'civilization' thought of control. literacy is a bias of materialistic civilization.