The Quran is a lot better than the Bible

هذا

Quran has more active fanbase
Bible has more book clubs

WRONG

The New Testament is perfection. The Quran rejects that perfection because Islam can't wrap it's dumb head around the concept of the Trinity.

>the trinity is comprehensible

Well to be fair no one can logically wrap their heads around the concept of trinity.
I mean, F = G, S = G, and HS = G, but F =/= S =/= HS. Try and make sense out of this, takes some elaborate mental gymnastics.

It's a sacred mystery

subtext: dude just like turn off your brain lmao

Seems fairly clear to me.

There's nothing difficult to get about the trinity.

I thought F, S, HG were subsets of G, and F∪S∪HG=G

But that makes no sense.

Explain it to a brainlet like me then.

As far as i know, Christians consider each "part" of the trinity fully as "God" rather than a part of it.

That makes sense if you treat "God" as an adjective, a quality they all possess. But yeah, that definition makes me think of the Russell's paradox.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
>The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from trinus, "threefold")[2] holds that God is three consubstantial persons[3] or hypostases[4]—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios).[5] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[6][7][8] The opposing view is referred to as Nontrinitarianism.

They're three separate entities of the same divine essence.

I would exchange the word "part" for "aspect". God qua the Logos is different than God qua the Holy Spirit which is different than God qua the Father. Yet these are all God.

>In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[
But that's completely and utterly polytheistic.

My "nature" is human but this doesn't mean the entire human race is one eight billion man version of trinity. It means there's eight billion different people just as in this instance there's three different gods.

Another way to explain it to someone who has taken geometry

It's still monotheistic because the son and holy spirits are merely arms of God. they all exist separately yet are the same at once.

but that's wrong you complete imbecile

Yeah, that's what doesn't make sense. The bit explaining why it's not polytheism.

>It's still monotheistic because the son and holy spirits are merely arms of God
I thought they idea is that they all were god and simultaneously were independent persons and that the idea that any of the 3 is a lesser god or just a component of god is heresy.

But that's modalist heresy.

>turn your brain off

Like that's not the primary moral of every other religion except Catholocism. You have a broken conception of time and universality.

>persons

No

see the long bar across the design of the chair? that's the shadow of the book.

"I am that I am." This is true of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. But Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three different identities. That they all hold different identities does not change their are-ness, which is what defines them and is their essence. None are any less or more than Supreme Being. Consider how a man may be both tall and short, depending on how he is compared. But Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are comparable only to each other, in which they are simultaneously one and held disrinct. What it describes is the nature of the greatest infinite, which is something we cannot possibly reason about independently. But when we are given this truth about it, we can see it is logically necessary. It is the one case in which post hoc ergo hoc is valid, because there can be no other cause than the first cause, which can be logically proven to be necessary for the existence of anything else.

The Quran is horrifying, in that it offers no contemplation of God, discourages the contemplation of God, demands total submission to God's will, but takes for evidence of God's will the ordinary and flawed signs of material power. This creates a terrible world in which everyone is a slave to their own will, subjugated to the most dominant will amongst the people, regardless of what this will desires. This perverse heirarchy is a perfect opposite to the harmony of God.

See

How does that concept help anyone in a real way?
How does it make your mind better at anything else other than Christian theology?

If this is the nature of the greatest thing, then obviously it has the utmost importance to everything the eminates from that greatest thing, which is everything. If I gave you a compass and map, would you complain that it could lead you anywhere instead of only being able to lead to one place?

islamic bookstands are god tier.

I see utility in the concept of transcendence, dual nature of Christ - being man and God without mix.
That concept alone is a tool that shapes your mind in such a way every aspect of your life improves when the same tool is used.

I invite you to think hard, think really hard and try to find where the concept of trinity applied somewhere else in your life other than theology.

I don't believe in the truth of Christianity, for me it's not pointing towards the absolute reality - it's just a phase in the development of human mind, God is just a word with a definition lacking, if we would ever be able to comprehend one.

For me the Christian mind is awesome, but Trinity does nothing to that mind.

interesting, will read later

I dare you to name a single sura that you think is better than Psalm 23, 1 Corinthians 13, or Matthew 6.

It seems like you're the one who needs to reflect more. The trinity is one of the most important guides to my moral life. As far as I can tell, a lack of care for the trinity is a fundamental reason for the lack of spirit in the modern world. For the most part, people hold onto the Father and Son, and so have the law and the word, but without reflecting on the trinity, the spirit is lost. And without the spirit, there is no law or word.

Because it was authored by God himself, unlike your shoddy mishmash of texts butchered and minced together over hundreds of years by tens of authors, then leather bound and served you whole.

It's the other way around: the three hypostases are adjectives, if you will, of God.

The Book of Mormon is a more entertaining Bible spin-off.

It must be exhausting trying to be clever about the same shit for all your life, making the same shallow point again and again in different ways, trapped forever in a own web of your own doing.
Being a caricature is hard.

Where can i download the quran?
.i can never find a good version since those weirdos hide it all the time.

Yes. Persons, that is the appropriate term.

Well it's a good thing I'm an atheist.

> which is something we cannot possibly reason about independently.
This is what I'm saying, the trinity is not actually comprehensible. This is the stance of every non-heretical Trinitarian Christian church on the planet.

There's nothing comprehensible about three distinct entities also being the same entity. Unless you already accept Christianity and so can make your peace with it being a mystery this does not fly. Muslims are absolutely right in this instance to question it because, to a non-Christian, it seems totally polytheistic.

Conceptualizing 3 different manifestations of God clears up a lot of confusion, like if God is good how can he let horrible stuff happen or whatever.

God is inmense, can´t explain his actions so I´ll leave that alone. What we "know" about him is that he manifests himself like this:
God the father creates using the logos, word. He created people in his image, with the ability to use the word.
God the son is the logos. The divine logos took human form so we could have a guide to get our own logos in tune with it, therefore with God in all his form.
The holy spirit is the internal fever that compels you to get in tune with the divine logos.

It´s important to note that these are the ways we perceive him, In Job he talks about making daily decision about things we will never see or even know about.

Daaaaaammmnnnnn.

>nothing comprehensible about three distinct entities also being the same entity
Wrong, they're all the same 'substance' (God) who has three 'hypostases' (the Godhead). I'm not a christfag, but I don't know where people are getting all this about the same 'entity'.

Objectively evaluated, it is not better literature than the Bible. Qur'an is the stupid man's holy book.

This is literally the book of Job

You haven't justified anything, you've only restated your (unfounded) opinion
Why exactly would not keeping the holy spirit - especially when the sensible interpretation of the Holy spirit is not a thinking person distinct from the Father but simply the power of God on earth - mean there was no word?

But without the reconciliation between God and mankind that the New Testament provides.

Well it's less pages, so it's easier to burn that's for sure.

According to Christians that aren't heretics it is incomprehensible though. That's what a sacred mystery is.

Is it incomprehensible in the same way that the validation or demonstration of logic itself is incomprehensible?

Surah 95, 20, 55, and 31 are far superior.

It's incomprehensible in much the same way that God Himself is incomprehensible. As a fundamental element of God the trinity is something that is beyond mortal rational understanding, we can only have a limited understanding of it before we have to evoke God inherent Godhood to accept it. Much like the resurrection, we can't understand how exactly Jesus was raised from the dead, we understand God did it but it is beyond us to know the full machinery of that. It's the kind of incomprehensible where you can only put any debate to rest by evoking God and/or the supernatural.

God reveals itself by Truth but the devil fools people by mere poetry.

Pickthall is the best version

Semi-relevant

muhammad-asad.com/Message-of-Quran.pdf

This one is regarded as a good translation and has really helpful notes on what words and phrases mean.

The best is undoubtedly The Study Quran, though

The spirit, the word, and the law are one. Without one you cannot have the others.

>The divine logos took human form
This in itself opened up a lot of confusion! Christ has two natures, divine and human, in hypostatic union. He also has two wills, divine and human, with the human will in total obedience to the divine.

Monophisitism is a pretty understandable, though heretical, position that Christ has one nature which is both fully divine and human. Then you have more extreme heresy like docetism where Christ only has a divine nature, which opens up a lot of problems because how can a fully divine Christ have a physical human body or die?

More like
>Decide on me or you're going into a pit of fire

No. The book of Job encourages the believer to suffer for God, but not take action that is unjust, no matter who on earth demands it. The Quran argues that submitting to power is submitting to God, that if someone is powerful and Muslim, they deserve to be respected and followed, because their material gains are evidence of God's love. Job demonstrates that what is good and what is pleasurable are not the same. The Quran is a codification for might makes right.

Easy choice, right? He makes it so easy for you.

>because their material gains are evidence of God's love
sounds like protestants to me

While protestants often do see the material gain of a Christain as evidence of God's love, not having material goods is not evidence of lacking God's love. Plus, they cannot change the morals as printed. The Quran allows for wide interpretation, with ever law only holding true for those who are not loved by God. Those who are loved by God are believed to have received wisdom, and so can know when a law is or is not applied, which often means most laws are not applied to the most holy. Some protestant religions have this too, but to a lesser extent. Also, protestant religions are often selfish, wheras Islam is selfless except for the most selfish, who are to be followed blindly.

The quran is utter garbage from any point of view. Literary, philosophical, historical.

Just a complete fucking mess of jewish stories Muhammad heard but not quite understood and repeated to his followers, orders to murder and pillage everyone who didn't worship him, and lots of times when he used this "divine revelation" to gain petty personal privileges.

Reading that bullshit is positively painful.

If the quran had never been written, our world would be infinitely better.

Garbage literature cn really fuck you over.

>The Quran allows for wide interpretation
Except that one of the most basic principles of islam is that you must take its orders literally or you're an apostate.

Yes, but what are it's orders? It is forbidden to kill, except when it is allowed to kill, and it is good to kill the infidel. But who is the infidel? Those with power are given great liberty. Those without power are made subject to those with. There is no mechanism for serving God other than serving those who serve themselves. If you serve yourself, it is wrong only so much as you fail to succeed. If you succeed, then you must be chosen by God, and therefore any wrong you have committed must actually be good, because it helped you to succeed.

That's not actually what it is, though it seems similar. The choice between everything and nothing does mean if you choose nothing you will get nothing, but it is not a punishment for not choosing everything, rather just the self-evident nature of choosing nothing. Don't anthropomorphize God.

>one misleading translation means every muslim practices the specific doctrine of taqiyya
His other points were good though.

I can't read arabic or hebrew so I can't really judge Tbh

To be even more fair, the trinity isn't explicitly a thing in the New Testament, it was codified afterwards by the Church Fathers.

That's literally the Catholic church

>don't think a person that made you in his image is like you

So you think the same about blackmail?

Nice claim, substantiate it

>the hebrew bible lmao
>not reading the Septuagint or based Jerome

All this aside, Sufism is a very beautiful and intellectually complex tradition, and the Islamic Golden Age was more than worthy of its name. They knew about the circulation of blood throughout the body before Harvey did.

Well I mean I can't really compare their relative literary merits without reading the original texts, can I?

>The Quran argues that submitting to power is submitting to God, that if someone is powerful and Muslim, they deserve to be respected and followed

No it doesn't. It continually lambasts the rich and powerful, deriding them for their pretensions to grandeur, and reminding them of their smallness and transience.

>" Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? They were superior to them in strength: they tilled the soil and populated it in greater numbers than these have done: there came to them their messengers with Clear (Signs). (Which they rejected, to their own destruction): It was not Allah Who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls." (30:9)

>If you succeed, then you must be chosen by God, and therefore any wrong you have committed must actually be good, because it helped you to succeed.

It says the exact opposite in Surah Al Fajr, where God warns mankind against the mindset which you described.

>"As for man, when his Lord tries him by giving him honour and gifts, then he says (puffed up): "My Lord has honoured me." But when He tries him, by straitening his means of life, he says: "My Lord has humiliated me!" Nay! But you treat not the orphans with kindness and generosity (i.e. you neither treat them well, nor give them their exact right of inheritance)! And urge not on the feeding of AlMiskin (the poor)! And you devour inheritance all with greed, And you love wealth with much love! (89)

True believers are beset with peril and adversity, not worldly success.

>"And most certainly shall We try you by means of danger, and hunger, and loss of worldly goods, of lives and of [labour's] fruits. But give glad tidings unto those who are patient in adversity" - 2:155

>The book of Job encourages the believer to suffer for God, but not take action that is unjust, no matter who on earth demands it.

The Quran says this as well btw

>"Not equal are the good deed and the bad deed. Repel evil by that which is better" - 41:34-35

Ibn Abbas commented on this verse, saying: "Allah commands the believers to be patient when they feel angry, to be forbearing when confronted with ignorance, and to forgive when they are mistreated." - Tafsīr al-Qur’ān al-‘Aẓīm 41:34

>"Those who are patient, seeking the countenance of their Lord, and establish prayer and spend from what We have provided for them, secretly and publicly, and repel evil with good, for those will have the good end." - 13:22

>"Those will be given their reward twice for what they patiently endured and they repel evil with good, and they spend from what We have provided them."- 28:54

And yet the weak are given permission to resist the strong. The Quran emphasizes that the right of the weak to resist and confront the strong who are oppressing them is part of the natural laws that have been laid down by God.

>“Those who have been attacked are given permission to defend themselves because they have been unjustly oppressed - God is powerful enough to save them - and the same applies to those who have been unjustly chased from their homes just because they said: ‘Our Lord is God!’ If God had not stopped certain people by means of others, monasteries, synagogues, churches and mosques where the Name of God is invoked often would have been demolished.” – 22:39-40

>“But we wanted to favor those who had been humiliated on earth" (28:5)

I very much admire the forcible and striking diction of the Qur'an. What elegant grace and beauty characterizes that passage which depicts the dreadful scene of the doomsday field, and, when dealing with infanticide, dramatically leaves off at the question: "For what crime were you slain?" (Qur'an: al-Taqwir -81:8) to the innocent child that was buried alive or put to death.

The Koran is utter trash.
Unless you want to utterly dismantle everything about western liberal democracy I suppose.

Surprised someone noticed this, it's more sufficient to compare the Qu'ran to the Psalms and to portions of the Book of Revelation as opposed to whole bible. In the context of the Islamic notion of continued monotheism, the Qu'ran is to be the third and final book of God's trilogy (with the previous books being the Old Testament, the New Testament).

And yes, the Arabic Qu'ran, which I have read, is far superior - this is because it's a meta-text, it can be read as a monologue of God to the world/the interaction of God and Muhammad's spiritual development/or as a refined collection and summary of the most important stories of the Old Testament. The Qu'ran is highly kabbalistic once you examine the underlying intricacies in language. The overlap of certain Hebrew and Arabic words and their significance are what make the Qu'ran so powerful. There is a deep emphasis on the concept of the Logos, the notion that God becomes manifest through the word and the sacredness of the word - especially since the Qu'ran is regarded as the direct revelation of the God's words. The concept of the Logos is so powerful that even in certain chapters of the Qu'ran, Jesus is referred to as the Word of God who was guide with the holy spirit [albeit, the Quran firmly denies that he was the Son of God]. This is in part due to the fact that the continuity of the sacredness of the Logos did not end with Jesus but continued through Muhammad. However, as powerful as this sounds, its also a shortcoming of Islamic thought because even Islam is entered upon the dictum that 'Muhammad is the last and final messenger.' The very same religious rigidity and dogma that Islam sought to defeat has enveloped it especially in recent centuries. The Shiite Muslims sought to perpetuate the sacredness of the Logos by their argument of the continuity of God's message through Muhammad's daughter and nephew (Ali) and his grandchildren.

As a purely literary-historical text, the Quran was revolutionary in Arabia at the time especially in juxtaposition to the finest examples of Pre-Islamic Poetry (the Muallaqat). However as shitty and cliche as it sounds, the mystical overtones and the power of language is something that can only be fully grasped by the Arabic speaker and even requires a certain reciter (e.g. a beautiful voice) and so that in this function - the person who recites the Quran with such power and focus becomes a channel for God's message and a physical embodiment of the Logos, that's part of the reason why people are devout Muslims because despite the shortcomings of the belief system - that concept of embodying the Logos (the divine aspect of consciousness which organizes reality) is incredibly compelling especially to people whose cultures have developed from poetry and the written word.

You, like everyone else ITT, have nothing to say about the literary merit of the Quran. You only offer dull snarky comments about the social and political values it espouses.

If we were to judge Lolita by the same standard the only conclusion we could reach would be "It's utter trash, unless you support pedophilia"

Excellent post

The trinity is just an ad hoc rationalization for there being no allowance in the law of Moses for a "son of god". It's so obvious once you read into it

The spirit, the word, and the law are one--literally the trinity.

Also, how can he be fully human when his body is incorruptible and is actually purifying?

I never paid much attention to him having two wills, do we all have acces to the divine will trough the holy spirit?

>Lolita is a ideology that propagates itself through violent repression of minorites, women, gays, and other religions and has over a billion adherents

Okay fine, the Koran also has dogshit awful prose. Even according to friends that speak MSA.