Last Thread (Because I owe my Polish grandparents something)
Atheists and members of other Christian denominations are welcome to debate theology, faith, etc. But please keep it civil.
" 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow."
Maybe we should take a break and not string the threads together one after the other like this.
Jacob Rogers
Yeah, maybe, but that aspect of Christ that is omnipotent and omnipresent was cool with me when I linked the threads.
Anyway.
If you haven't seen the actual Dali portrait in the OP you get yourself up to NY and see it at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Camden Thompson
What do you owe your polish grandparents?
David Hernandez
Nothing I just thought it was a /clg/ thing to say. It's like [x edition].
Noah Bell
You don't owe anything to your grandparents? Wowee
Justin Howard
Was Tolstoy right about Dante?
Elijah Hernandez
Also, reminder that Catholicism is a religion, not a culture. If you do not believe in Christ, regularly attend Mass, and take the Church seriously as a force in your life, you are ultimately just a LARPer.
Ryder Williams
What can I read to get a basic but thorough synopsis of Catholic beliefs, preferably with a slight anti-protestant/calvinist slant. Things like salvation, prayer to mary/saints, Peter being the first pope etc.. Like Calvin's Institutes or Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology but a Catholic version
Anthony Evans
What happened to mere Christianity? I keep seeing these threads on Veeky Forums and it's Catholic this and Catholic that. Protestant or Orthodox seem to be insults, or at least on par with terms such as Muslim or atheist, that is, equally far from our, true faith. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Catholic. I'm not against your stance, just trying to make sense of it. Is there such a thing as a religion called Christianity anymore? Or am I wrong to think there ever was?
Carson White
Dogmatik by Scheeben.
James White
Catholicism is Christianity, everything else is just schism or heresy, outside of salvation, unless we factor in invincible ignorance.
Michael Martinez
...
Tyler Carter
Why are the Orthodox guys trying to get to Turkey? Why are there toll-houses?
Thomas Thomas
...
Cameron Campbell
But what about the toll-houses? What's that all about?
So is the point of the meme that the ultimate goal of Orthodoxy is to convert Turkey? That's weird.
Jack Roberts
the ultimate goal is misrepresentation and memeing their way to victory the only thing catholics know how to do
Wyatt James
Why can't the Orthodox into philosophy?
James Sullivan
because their theology is incoherent and they don't want to confront it
Ryan Peterson
It's a meme on /Christian/. Some Latin kept acting like the only reason the Orthodox Church didn't reunite with the Roman Catholic church after the Council of Florence was that we loved the Turks, so after repeatedly responding to it we just started rolling with it. This version of the maze meme is mine, I added the tollouse aspect. Tollhouses are something related to the way that Orthodox Christians view the afterlife. They have a deep symbolic meaning and an interesting history, but in recent times aversion of tollhouse theory has been pushed that's incredibley simplistic and literal, so I've been memeing on them Nah I made that one and I'm Eastern Orthodox >Butt status: hurt
Nathaniel White
you're a Pelagian heretic is what you are
Levi Garcia
How?
Mason Rodriguez
tell me how someone gets into heaven
David Reed
you'll find out soon enough
Connor Carter
Through a faith in Jesus Christ, this faith not being a dead faith. What meme angel you coming from?
Ethan Bell
meme answer, as expected from a Pelagian
James Murphy
so its through faith alone? No act or sacrament merits salvation?
Chase Fisher
Muh Augustine? Just part of his soteriology and none of his ecclesiology though?
Ian Green
muh bible? just part of james 2:24 and none of Romans 3:28?
Thomas Hall
OF THE LAW F
T H E
L A W
Joshua Jones
correct, thank you for finally coming to an emphatic agreement with me and the scriptures
Joseph Brooks
ok then now who are you shilling for?
John Morales
proddy
Carter Lee
As butthurt as I may be, the question still stands. Is there any Orthodox philosophy at all? Soloviev became Catholic anyway and had sympathies for it during his life, but he counts if we streach it, political theory isn't as applicable to theology so I wouldn't count that either and that part is mostly Russian imperialist wankery.
Isaiah Taylor
What is the best entry-level apologetics book for an agnostic like me? I'm currently reading Keller's The Reason For God, but it's from an American low-church Protestant perspective (which Keller calls "orthodox christian" lol).
I have Orthodoxy by Chesterton lined up next.
Wyatt Thomas
Okay, what's the real version of tollhouse theory?
Levi Cooper
I prefer these Protestants over Dante and Dostoevsky, including the Authorised Version over your Hippie Bibles. The fact that the best writer Orthodoxy has to offer is Dostoevsky is pathetic. His "masterpiece" Brothers K. is full of completely unbelievable, flat characters.
>inb4 Shakespeare was a secret Catholic The man had an Anglican wedding and funeral, attended Anglican services, and his daughters all married Protestants, including a Puritan, which is even more removed from the Papists than the Anglicans.
Jonathan Clark
Why not convert to Islam?
Isaac Cook
Augustine's confessions probably.
Hudson Green
>protestants have no good literat- *blocks your path*
Brayden Reyes
These posts have made me think.
Is England the most Veeky Forums protestant country?
Brayden Ward
He may not have been Catholic (and if he was he couldn't have published anything as one), but his writings were. KJV is just a bad translation. Milton was extra heretical, even by heretical standards. The fact that just about every worthwhile praised Dosto for his characters speaks against you.
Christopher Martin
>but his writings were What did he mean by this?
Hudson Morgan
I just have an Anglo bias because I'm mostly unfamiliar with German and Scandinavian literature. Most great American writers were Anglican, Presbyterian, or some other product of the English Reformation such as Quakerism. I recall that Knut Hamsun from Norway was at least nominally a Lutheran. I'm also sure most of the great German philosophers were Lutheran. Frankly most of my favorite writers are either Anglican, Catholic, or Irreligious, but that's bound to be true for anyone born in an English-speaking country.
You must be a newfag if you haven't seen Nabokov's quotes against Dostoevsky. Nabokov is also not the only worthy to have written against Dostoevsky.
Just because Shakespeare has plays set in Italy with Catholics in them doesn't make them Catholic plays, you buffoon. If Kim Jong Un wrote a play about the Pope, would that make him a Catholic?
There is absolutely no proof that Shakespeare had private Catholic convictions. However, nominally he was an Anglican and his daughters and sisters married Anglicans without any controversial connection established to Rome.
Hunter Gutierrez
>unironically using Nabokov as an argument Lel
Hunter Nguyen
>The Holy Bible >Protestant
Lol. Don't care if its KJV, it still has Peter being told to build the Catholic church.
Ian Cook
Look, you're questioning my credibility because I'm just some guy on the internet. I get that, you want more sources of authority. But Nabokov is well-recognized as a great writer. I could cook up some more alphabet soup of great names of people who said Dostoevsky's characters are straw men, but why bother? You're obviously a cretin who doesn't know how to argue. You still fail to name another great Orthodox writer besides a few other lowly Russians from the 19th century. Face it: Orthodoxy, while it's probably a fine religion, has offered virtually nothing of literary note by comparison to major Protestant Churches and the Roman Catholic Church. You can't refute this.
Zachary Davis
> Seriously guys, stop asking who the bell tolls for. Its not funny anymore
Angel Russell
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
We're talking about Peter. Does Jesus say anything about his successor as Bishop of Rome here?
Next thing you're going to tell me is that the Medicis had infallible judgement!
John Sullivan
Also, I never implied the Bible is Protestant or inherently any ideology, but the translation certainly was made by the Church of England.
Dominic Fisher
Okay so if that succession isn't valid, give me a non-meme reason the bible can be taken seriously.
>INB4 Joel Osteen told me so
Luis Fisher
Answer me this: from that text, where do you get papal authority? Peter was Bishop of Rome, no doubt, but where does it say his successor has authority?
Jace Adams
Peter said so you dumbass. Given that you concede he had authority, I don't know how you can squirm out of his authority to determine a successor
Ethan Thompson
Does Peter's successor inherit this power? It's obviously an ambiguous passage no matter how you look at it.
Hunter Ortiz
>Upon this rock I will build my church, but I intend it to last only as long as you live. Also, you're not actually allowed to build an institution with succession, you're just a figurehead for the next 50 odd years
Literally no ambiguity. Peter is in charge now and if he says he has a successor, he does
Joseph Davis
>Peter is in charge now in Rom eand if he says he has a successor in Rome, he does.
ftfy
Besides, it's the College of Cardinals who decides who is the next Pope, not the dead Pope. This is an absurd argument.
Do you reckon Gregory VI was an infallible pope? What about the ones who fathered bastards?
Jose Davis
>Next thing you're going to tell me is that the Medicis had infallible judgement! >Do you reckon Gregory VI was an infallible pope? What about the ones who fathered bastards? Are you capable of googling what infallible means?
Kevin Clark
To all Catholic's please remember to do your daily rosaries and PLEASE don't miss out on one of the sweetest deals known to the church - The First Friday Mass. Seriously, look that stuff up, it's practically a hack into heaven, stuff's op. (Though I recommend not taking advantage of it, because when you get down to it - it's a way of thanking Christ for all his love, try doing the First Friday more than once after the nine months.)
Samuel Powell
The proddy has been here all day long for the past three days.
Hudson Ross
I wonder how protestants don't see the contradiction in their epistemology, it's always based in being anti-Catholic, but it without Catholicism cannot provide self justification.
Juan Wood
>How could they think they're right, when I'm so obviously right?
Jackson Taylor
Protestantism is just yesteryear's leftism. It's not meant to make sense, it's only a temporary tool in destroying human civilization.
Angel Harris
popekissingterroristfeet.jpg
Not so fast, Pedro.
Zachary Lee
G-guys we're Catholic t-too!
Mason Kelly
Not Catholic, not anti-catholic, but doesn't it seem a little odd that the Church would literally adopt the language, traditions, names, organization, etc of the entity used in the New Testament to represent everything corrupt and bad about the world?
Oliver Thompson
I would argue this is true for protestantism, but as Assad has said in his critique of a Geertzian interpretation of religion, certain religions - Catholicism being one of them - focus on practice and rites more than they do genuine faith, which is the focus of most if not all protestant sects.
Easton Hill
As the roman empire turned to christ, are we not similar being inherently sinful?
Christian Peterson
This wouldn't be the case with any other schism or heresy, none of the ones I'm aware of were so dependant on an arch rival.
Angel Anderson
It isn't though. I went to a congregational church and it was based on the relationship between the apostles and Christ, and meant to foster a personal relationship with God. I didn't know of Catholic doctrine until I met a roman catholic friend in high school.
Brayden James
>strawman hypocrite
Aiden Nelson
How can Catholics even cope?
Jaxon Peterson
>Chad Briton vs Italian virgin
Camden Foster
user's got it.
Asher Torres
It's the pagan elements in Catholicism that do it for me desu. With maybe the exception of the black church, I find Protestantism to be sterile, irreverent, and unimaginative.
Michael Brooks
That post doesn't say that at all. To give an example of his logic:
>Biblical canon was established authoritatively by an early church council >Early church split into oriental, orthodox, and catholic christianity >Protestants reject all three as having the ability to declare things with authority >Many Protestants now reject the capacity for there to be church authority that can declare things authoritatively at all >Protestants focus all of their authority on the Bible >How do they know the biblical canon?
All they can resort to is the research done over centuries, which makes for a long game of telephone and hoping the reason of man can choose what is the word of God, which they'd be appalled by if they took the time to think about it.
Luis Harris
The Puritans shut down the Globe and you're claiming Shakespeare was a Protestant? Lol
Nolan Watson
i want to like catholicism because of the paganism, the art, the history, etc. but if you compare protestant countries to catholic ones, protestantism is clearly superior, just look at the areas in the northern united states founded by puritans and then compare it to some standard protestant dump in the south, and then compare both of those two any catholic shit in the americas...puritans outperform on everything
Grayson Hughes
catholics talk a good theoretical game but anywhere they have power is a corrupt shithole filled with crime and vice, meanwhile puritans actually live by christian values
Jaxon Ross
So you'd rather live in Detroit than Florence?
Nolan Ramirez
Rites and faith reinforce each other. "Genuine faith" with no outward signs ultimately becomes misplaced, incorrect, or wayward. This is because, as Aquinas teaches us, man is neither fully soul nor fully body, but rather a composite of the two. What is outward is connected with what is inward.
Gabriel Phillips
All roads lead to Istanbul.
Nathaniel Hill
I was reading The Idiot by Dostoevsky where he talks about the Skoptsky Christian sect that existed in Russia in the 19thC. They practiced voluntary castration, and justified themselves by Mathew 19:12 among other things.
>12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
In my reading it would seem the Skopsky sect took this idea literally, but Jesus seems to use eunuchs in a wider sense - meaning a way of life that is more humble and ascetic.
Asher Morgan
That passage comes from the section where Jesus talks about marriage and divorce. So I've always taken "eunuch" in this instance merely to mean someone who chooses not to have sex. I've always assumed he was talking about celibacy and chastity, which is something all non-married Christians are called to.
In place of "eunuch," this particular translation has "incapable of marriage," which seems to drive the point home further.
Alexander Russell
>They practiced voluntary castration, and justified themselves by Mathew 19:12 among other things.
JUST
Christian Flores
What is a good English translation of the Idiot?
Wyatt Reyes
Shit like this is why lay Catholics are not allowed to interpret Scripture themselves.
Lincoln Cooper
>the writer and the book acknowledged by almost everyone as having incredible psychological depth >flat Anglos
Do not interact with them
Josiah Torres
I read FDJ years ago but he was flat as fuck. I guess films made his portrayal of characters completely moot.
Jackson Adams
Why do most of you Christians fear Spirituality?
Christian Evans
Because it demands an acceptance of the idea that the world has a miraculous, supernatural dimension, and in our modern age most people can't handle that.
Dominic Nguyen
Everything on the big 7 (including the heart/love) is there to distract you and is besides the point. The Light of God is not the rainbow.
Justin Jenkins
I'm reading Ignat Avsey's translation published by Alma Classics - no complaints, having no problem reading fifty pages or more a day. Avoid P+V. I've enjoyed McDuff's Crime and Punishment so I imagine his Idiot from Penguin is good.
It's full of New Testament allusions - and the way Dostoevsky builds things up is something to behold.
Ryan Brown
mostly just fear ones that are anti biblical like praying to dead people
Andrew Hernandez
Even when they appear before you?
Jack Perez
People who aren't Catholic do dumb heretical shit so Catholics are at fault?
Adam Powell
yes
Carter Ortiz
No, I was praising Catholics for not allowing just anybody to interpret Scripture validly, because doing so leads precisely to shit like castrating yourself. Letting the average yuckster interpret the Bible for himself was one of Luther's worst ideas.
Ethan Powell
>No, I was praising Catholics for not allowing just anybody to interpret Scripture validly you really think not being allowed to interpret scripture is a good thing? Especially when the "official" interpretations aren't even implicitly in the book
Zachary Flores
I think it's useful to have a standard interpretation to which all others should look. It's nice to have something authoritative.
Ian Cruz
thats what confessions and creeds are for, but "no personal interpretation" as part of the doctrine is cultish and non biblical