I don't mean people with out-there rhetoric. I mean people who disagree with the mainstream consensus on most issues, and will get violent to establish something different. I mean ISIS. I mean Bolsheviks. IJ had some interesting extremist characters, but I never felt that strongly for any of them.
There has to be more too it then showing their dependents (daughters w/ cancer, and so forth). I want them to be standalone likable, but also repugnant to the audience. Is this even possible?
Something like the KKK is hard to sell to audiences. Same with ISIS and Bolsheviks. This is an open ended question. I doubt changing the aesthetics or the politics of the individual is enough. I want universally- or at least widely-applicable techniques here.
Liam Bell
Why couldn't a political extremist be likeable? They sincerely just want to make the world a better place for everyone by any means necessary. They're regular people with friends, family, interests and hobbies. It just so happens they're also so dissatisfied with the current system that they think it needs to be resisted violently.
> I want them to be standalone likable, but also repugnant to the audience. Is this even possible? You're doing it wrong, OP. If it's a good and sympathetic character the audience isn't supposed to think they're a nice guy who also happens to have insane beliefs. They're supposed to be conflicted and consider that maybe this character actually has the right of it.
Not to mention a great deal of how they're portrayed depends on how the setting is. If you're going to portray them in a likeable way you would need to consider why someone would think these beliefs are a good idea, why to this person their ideology makes sense.
I'm going to choose to believe his shirt says Infinite Jest
Carter Foster
>If you're going to portray them in a likeable way you would need to consider why someone would think these beliefs are a good idea, why to this person their ideology makes sense.
I've done this, but will the audience?
Anthony Morris
Yes, audiences like it when authors treat them like they're not idiots.
Angel Carter
>I've done this, but will the audience? If you've done it well, yes
Logan Morales
just make them human, it's very easy to understand why someone might have extreme opinions if you show some empathy
just be prepared that most readers won't understand and review bomb you, they need a protagonist to be squeaky clean these days
Ayden Peterson
I can't make ISIS and Bolsheviks 'human' because to me they simply aren't, consdering how they are promotors of white genocide
Joseph Adams
that's why you're not a good writer
Dominic Torres
>consdering how they are promotors of white genocide OP, I don't mean to alarm you, but have you ever considered that you might be a political extremist.
Jayden Thompson
Make them part of a fictional extremist group first of all. Also, show the psychological, political, and economic pressures that turn someone into an extremist. There's a hidden side of extremism people don't see. Tear open the lid. Don't just make him a faceless creep.
Aiden Ross
You do it by depicting what they fought against as even worse - in the case of Bolsheviks it's easy, since Nicholas II, Rasputin and the Okhrana were almost cartoonishly vicious and despotic. ISIS is harder, but you could depict the desperation and fury of a man who had his village destroyed by US drone strikes, for instance, and use that as the motivator for his actions. Or make him a tragic figure, preyed on by manipulative clerics with their own agenda. There's all sorts of options if you just use a little imagination.
Bentley Nguyen
I am referring to current Bolsheviks, i.e. cultural marxist feminist judaics
Anthony Kelly
Those are just liberals. They don't even care about economic class for the most part; they're certainly not starting a proletarian revolution any time soon.
Brody Williams
they're leftists and against capitalism
Anthony Morris
wit the answer is always wit
William Hill
Nicholas II wasn't cartoonishly vicious and despotic. He was a meek and gentle dude that was in charge of the hegemon of reaction and absolute monarchy in Europe and surrounded by people that expected him to act like an iron-fisted tyrant. If he was in charge of a regular western European country like his cousins he would have been fine, but nope, he got stuck with the Saudi Arabia of the day. If he was actually a vicious despot it paradoxically probably would have been better for Russia since it wouldn't have had to deal with the indecisiveness and ineffectuality of Nicholas at a time when was rapidly booming and experience huge unrest.
Purple haired Hillary supporters are not against capitalism. They might think they are but their idea of "socialism" is Sweden.
Austin Cox
Is this book any good? I've never read anything by Mieville other than his Dial H comic, which was good.
Anthony Gonzalez
Well, keep in mind that one thing common to most extremists willing to resort to violence is that they don't have much to lose, in material and/or emotional terms. There is a reason poor people are more prone to violent rebellion, and so are emotionally detached people.
Kevin Martin
Everyone with more than an ounce of brain matter has problems with capitalism. The people you're describing seldom actually engage with it, though, they just whine about transgender toilets or whatever tedious non-issue is popular on Facebook. Hard leftist would be more about labor strikes, nationalizing industries, and wealth redistribution.
It's pretty nice, yeah. Much more readable than Ten Days or most of the primary sources, but without sacrificing too much in depth of perspective, research, etc. Bit of thesaurus abuse here and there.
Jack Gonzalez
Any extremist is more likeable than a milquetoast, western liberal bugman eternally ejaculating into a plastic pussy in the VR pleasuredome
Ian Gutierrez
I don't literally mean ISIS and bolsheviks. I'm just giving examples of people widely disliked by Veeky Forums culture because it's easier to get across what I'm going for.
Landon Adams
right-wing ecoterrorism is the new wave catch it
Luke Smith
You have to give him a proper reason to be an extremist. Someone in a warzone joining ISIS would be more likeable than someone in his mom's basement memeing about white genocide for example.
Brody Parker
Is there any interesting writing on it, other than (arguably) Edward Abbey?
Isaiah Fisher
If it's a leftist, show how his self-loathing neurosis is rooted in his relationship with his smothering Jewish mother.
If he's right wing, show that his motivation is to make his country safe and prosperous for his children's children.
Juan Morales
Depict them as people. Show aspects of their lives that don't have anything to do with politics. Also, when it comes time to discuss their being militants, make the audience privy to the logic that led them to their conclusion.
The audience doesn't have to like your character as a militant, only like him as a person and understand him as a militant.
Samuel Murphy
Focus on the person and give them good reasons to support a bad cause. In case of ISIS it's simply lack of options and revenge for example. In case of Bolsheviks it's a misguided attempt to create a better society for everyone. Extra points if they lost someone close to the other side. Someone starving or getting executed by the current government or getting fucked by upper classes for the commies. Someone bombing your little brother on the way from school for the ISIS guy.
Now if you have some crazy white libertarians who wage a war against the state or KKK, that's a lot harder and takes more skill. Go with their disconnect with the world and loneliness as an somewhat simple way out.
Dominic Perez
What is this... like deliberate destruction of the environment?
David Price
Gotta save it from the Jews and the Blacks somehow.
Logan Wilson
>white genocide
Josiah Thompson
McNig isn't an extremist. An idiot, yes, but not an extremist
Xavier Baker
If you're having trouble understanding why people have different political idealogies besides your own beyond some armchair psychoanalysis , then that is your fault as a person not as a writer.
When we talk about politics extremism, the easiest cop out to making him complex is to give him an emotionally charged back story >My whole family was killed by x, I'm out for revenge Or >I never had a problem with x, until they began hurting the people around me
You have to give people the ethos of a certain political idealogy and the context that spurred it if you want to create a complex character. You have to get inside the head of someone who vehemently disagrees with you.
Connor Evans
>United States is less than 60% white >Whites will eventually diminish in voting power before other ethnic groups , leading to ethnic tensions >Again >Sheltered bourgie white kids have no problem with this as long as they can play Vidya and jerk off
Kevin Robinson
>people moving into a country is genocide
Michael Flores
If you lack this much self awareness and empathy and fall into agitprop this easily you will never produce writing of worth. By your logic most writers are "cucks" because you often need to account for several perspectives when writing
Tyler Long
Not him and generally you're right but with certain views it's still pretty tricky to make the character likeable. Understanding WHY someone wants to do X isn't enough when we talk about completely despicable ideas, especially if it goes beyond wanting but doing that kind of shit.
With something like white surpremacist, the only solution seems to be having the character to grow up in that kind of environment and having all of their friends being crazies too, hence creating extra internal conflict, because abandoning the bullshit would mean abandoning their entire past life. Besides, if they are cut off from any other views, they never really had the capacity to make an informed decision.
It's less than 40% black and black people somehow survived so far.
Jason Torres
The Japanese and the Koreans seem to be of that opinion.
Levi Murphy
And that makes it ok because they're not white and as well all know if someone else does it that makes it ok
LEFITSTS BLWON THE FUCK OUT!!! subscribe for more epic sjw cuck own moments, hehe based sam hyde and molyneux
Kayden Jones
>implying anyone actually wants to move there
Jaxon Myers
Wew lad, you need to take a few deep breaths!
Zachary Miller
very empathetic
Leo Rodriguez
>Implying anything is inherently despicable That's what I'm talking about, the trait of a rational actor is to assume no black and white evils in the world. Now that doesn't mean you have to change your personal opinion, but to be more nuanced in your views you need to get engaged in the dialectic of your opponents and rivals.
When it comes to white supremacy, for instance, a lot of it has to with the complicated issue of race relations in the modern world, where white people are also experiencing racism and hatred against themselves. I've talked with white supremacists (it's as easy as lurking on /pol/) and that's their general answer, they are biological determinist, race naturalists, ethnographers, and reactionaries. That is their view, and when exploring their ethos, logos, pathos etc you need to have as much of understanding of it as possible.
While the majority of people on /pol/ are mostly just sheep it's the same as with most idealogies where the intelligentsia of a movement surrounds itself with loyal prols who buy into their rhetoric. Their is , contrary to popular belief, and intellectual core to these types of people. It's the same with ISIS, it was the same with Bolsheviks, Khmer Rouge, einztasgruppen, etc. Most people do not really understand their opponents on this level, they see them as an ontological Other. Bridging different kinds of others together is how you create a sympathetic radical character, which isn't easy because it also requires you going on your own cognition of the Other.
Gabriel Perez
>a group of Jewish agitators forcing suffering and starvation on millions of innocents to make themselves rich and powerful is somehow more sympathetic than a noble house and ancient culture forever destroyed by rootless, parasitic hatemongerers
Nathan Gonzalez
The House of Romanov are "noble" despite the massive starvation and poverty in the Russian empire while they got fat and wealthy.
Fucking pathetic.
Robert Hill
That's the benevolence of whire people, white minorities in blac countries don't fare anywhere near as well.
The white supremecist argument against white genocide is that there have been three consecutive generations of black children raised on the idea that they aren't really black of they don't hate white people/ white people are the devil.
Allowing them to gain voting power is simply not in the whites best interests.
Oliver Butler
> White - 232,943,055 (73.6%) >73.6% >less than 60%
Logan Robinson
Sauce on those numbers? Most estimates out it between 56%-63%
Levi Cruz
Also this is 2012, not 2017 and whites are predicted to be less than half the population by 2025
Brody Ramirez
>People moving into a country is genocide It is according to the UN >In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: >(a) Killing members of the group; >(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; >(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; >(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
So under (d), yes white people are being genocided and displaced en masse by government programs intended to promote miscegenation and displacement in the name of neo-liberal economic programs. Genocide doesn't need to mass murder, although in places like South Africa that does happen albeit in small measures.
Gavin Reyes
Okay, what measures are being imposed that are intended to prevent births among white people?
I would hope to give you some credit. Because right now it sounds like you're saying the possibility that a white person might have children with someone who is not white would fall under this. And I hope you don't think that because that is fucking retarded.
Carter Brown
>they're certainly not starting a proletarian revolution any time soon And neither would Bolsheviks. You don't start a revolution, you wait for one to happen and then try to assume position as its leaders.
Oliver Scott
Make them zany like Pynchon does.
Kayden Gomez
>Promoting miscegenation is not interfering with white birth rates Nigger...
Grayson Perry
Well first of all >Promoting miscegenation is not trying to prevent white births Wew Second of all >c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; So importing a highly religious and high birth rate having population into the country which offsets the political power of the ethnic majority of the country is , in a sense, genocide according to the UN. Which is what's happening, as white people are supposed to be less than half of the country by 2025. We used to have some pretty strict laws about this kind of stuff because of a fear of ethnic conflict, but now people don't care so much about that because >Lol we need to competitive in the global market place, so we're going to stagnate real wages through free trade agreements with Mexico where laborers from Mexico (which has some of the lowest minimum wages in the world) can send remitences back home making them insanely competitive when compared to the native labor market Which, in a sense, is is trying to competent the near slave level of labor conditions in China. The side affects t of this, however, is white people being displaced
Aaron Perry
>Is this even possible?
dude stop being such a cuck as to your own powers.
did you ever think that everyone is a person, and every person does what they do for a reason? The most evil people have the most ingenious justifications for their actions. Either that or they FEEL they do, otherwise nothing would make sense.
Kevin Hernandez
>Promoting miscegenation is not trying to prevent white births Here's the thing, no one is being imposed upon here. If you see a nigger in a movie and that makes you want to fuck a nigger in real life no one has forced you to do anything, you did that yourself.
Likewise if you see someone hit a woman in a video game this does not mean there's a patriarchal conspiracy. > Which is what's happening, as white people are supposed to be less than half of the country by 2025 Here's the thing. Unless you are going to veer into (((the Jews))) territory nothing about this is being deliberately calculated for the purpose of destroying white people.
Additionally making up a smaller percentage of the population does not constitute genocide anyway. White people wouldn't have gone anywhere, they would still be living in America at a comparable number of people. It would so happen that there's also now more brown people living in America.
If I have a bowl of skittles and pour in a bag of M&M's the skittles haven't gone anywhere, they haven't been replaced. They just share a bowl with another kind of candy.
Liam Stewart
i actually saw a legit hot white chick today, i was like shit i guess gentrification has it's upsides, the crazy thing was she was with a white boy bro type who clearly lifted, the rich whites who buy million dollar lofts and shit talk all that liberal mess but when it comes down to it they not trying to pollute the pool
James Smith
Are you a black character from a 1990s movie?
Ryder Rogers
yeah but the early 90s when everyone had really bright african colors and shit not the later 90s when it was all timbs and fatigues
Levi Ross
Iris Murdoch
Jackson Jones
speaking of old hiphop movies can someone tell the origin of that sample thats like "your just fessin man" i could never figure out what "fessin" was supposed to be, confessing? why would you say "you're just confessin man?" maybe im retarded but i dont get it
Jayden Ramirez
ooohhh, it's supposed to be "fussin" but since the beastie boys are rich jews it was totally inauthentic, got it
Oliver Lewis
the problem is that the best way to make someone likable is to make them relatable, so trying to make a likeable character that isn't relatable is really hard. look for characters that aren't relatable but still likable. filthy frank comes to mind, sadly.
Colton Phillips
after all the communist shit pumped out in the 20th century there wasn't one novel with a likable commy true believer? hard to believe
Charles Collins
>communist shit pumped out in the 20th century Like?
Carson Taylor
how about 1984, the protag is basically a terrorist who admits he's down to kill innocent people for his radical beliefs
Dominic King
niggers the answer is boxer in animal farm and y'all had deprived childhoods
Samuel Gray
Old Major is also pretty likeable and I don't remember the Trotsky-pig doing anything particularly objectionable.
Leo Wood
I don't think it's a good idea to approach a character with the intent of making them likeable. That's like trying to make yourself likeable, it usually comes off as contrived.
Mason Williams
>trotsky-pig that's because orwell's a trotskiite. he doesn't hate communism, he hates stalin
Christian Taylor
That’s counting wetbacks.
Landon Smith
>Rasputin You fell for the meme
Chase Brown
>implying there's no reason for the ethnic tensions in black majority countries >muh black people all believe the same thing I think they think >muh white people all have the same goals I think they do
Grayson Ward
>There has to be more too it then showing their dependents (daughters w/ cancer, and so forth) there isn't any other way, give him a little sister and kill her
Gabriel Rogers
People being moved into a country for the purpose of ethnic replacement could be considered genocide, yes.
Bentley Bennett
It's an endless cycle of mutual hate, and you're propagating it with your black man vs. white man mantra.
white man hates black man, in return the black man hates the white man, so white man feels justified in his hatred and gives more voice to it, so the black man also feels justified in his hatred, and so on until the end of racial tensions.
It's the same with most minorities that suffered from heavy discrimination. Look at the Roma in Europe for another example.
It's not neolib affirmative action that will end this, but a culture that realizes that mutual hatred is not in the interest of either of the groups.
This is why it's hard to write a relatable white/black supremacist into a thought provoking story. When you start looking for a reason for their hatred, you'll find nothing but "They were raised like this." If they were raised in a non-hateful environment their ideology would lack a source.
Of course you could push a certain agenda from whatever point of view, but then your character wouldn't be as relatable and your book would fall into the niche of whatever side you took. That would alienate the vast majority of potential readers.
All in all you can write a relatable, heroic white supremacist, but you cannot push his rhetoric, you can simply show it to the reader.
Asher Flores
Show their perspective, their reasoning, their life. Any human being with sufficient empathy will feel for a character and understand why they are as they are, if you show some reasonable line of thought and history. Of course they likely won't agree with their views, but they'll understand why the character holds them, at least in some way. It also helps to try make the reader actually agree with some points, to some extent, though overall disagreeing.
Say an extreme, militant anarchist (of some type) is pretty easy because you can appeal to fairness and freedom (from the perspective of the anarchist), that most will resonate with to some degree. Most of the lower-end of ISIS are just random poor people joining for the benefits, often for their families. Not out of ideology or religion. Though that's not really relevant here.
Basically just humanise them and show their perspective (and reasoning/history that lead them to that perspective). Even if their views/actions are completely unagreeable and terrible, at the very least it will invoke pity on some level.
Isaac Nelson
>If see a movie >Movie Oh yes because the public government run schools do not teach total racial egalitarianism How about we ignore fucking movies and take a look at how the government is the ones pushing this shit, not only pushing it, but literally indoctrinating our children into believing total racial egalitarianism. >If you mix a bowl of Skittles with a bowl M&M's the Skittles are still Are you seriously comparing human behavior to something as inert as candy?
Jace Scott
Except showing a cycle of mutual hate is one of the biggest cliche's and misunderstanding of radical thought out there. >Communist hates capitalist >White hates black >Man hates women >Why can't we all just get along? >Author asserts democratic, bourgeois, and pacifistic narrative or something that is simply his own ethos , >fails to understand why not everyone would agree with the ethos
Brayden Collins
Easy. Make him self aware of his ridiculousness
Robert Ward
DA GUBERNMENT IS TEACHING SCIENCE TO OUR CHILDREN!
Stories like this are usually completely looked over btw, because the faux cosmopolitan culture of the liberalized west doesn't like to see that multiculturalism just leads to conflict.
Yes, white people being intentionally displaced is a genocide. Just because it isn't the Armenian Genocide or the Holocaust doesn't means it's any less of a genocide.
Also, just to clarify, human nature is a bit more complicated than candies. >Dude you live in same.area as everybody else why can't you just get along lmao >T. sheltered middle class kiddie
Aaron Smith
lmao ernst just look at this fucking liberal over here i bet he doesn't even into the concept of the political
Adrian Roberts
>Racial egalitarianism is science It's actually social.science :DD
Which isn't really a science anymore than psychology. >Look kids, Martin Luther King Jr said we need to value people by their merit and not their skin color, because race is just soon color and the individual does not occur on a modal basis based on ethnicity and race a priori >Isn't that just WEIRD
Owen Young
>daughters w/ cancer
i woz jus sik n my mouth
Sebastian Powell
>everything I don't understand isn't real science but product of the jooce, the state or muh private interests Ah, to be young again.
Jaxson Campbell
>Any statistical discrepancy between racial groups is due to a progressive conspiracy theory that the KKK has infiltrated the police and all forms of government leading to institutional racism >Anyone who believes in biological determininism is false a priori >Strawmanning me so hard about muh Jews >Probably doesn't know the first thing about jews to begin with but because he watched a lot of tv programs he feels like he does Why is it always the same brand of egocentric moron who ends up doing the >Detached meme'ing with basic bitch arguments Style of shitposting?
Parker Russell
>Social science >Real science Uh-oh, someone fucked up and got the wrong degree. How is that psych/poly sci degree working out , user,? Did you get a nice job waiting tables like everyone else?
Angel Turner
get out of the basement before you become another statistic
Lincoln Rodriguez
Oh so your that one butthurt type of fag >Fuck you and your arguments I DONT NEED TO HEAR ARGUMENTS WHO DISAGREES WITH ME AND MY LIBERAL VALUES >ESPECIALLY NOT FROM SOME FAT FUCKING NECK BEARD LIKE YOU >They aren't even arguments, they are just nonsense >How can someone disagree with ME?
Kek, okay pal whatever makes you sleep at night. Your still a shit tier writer if you can't even attempt to understand how people other than yourself and political views work.
Nathaniel Carter
>bitches about muh social science and attempts to justify his belief with social science I don't even.
>Anyone who believes in biological determininism is false a priori That or maybe just lacks any kind biological background, but let's be real, more likely than not, it's both.
>Strawmanning me so hard about muh Jews >Probably doesn't know the first thing about jews to begin with but because he watched a lot of tv programs he feels like he does That's some based meta shitposting, or just complete lack of self-awareness? You killed your own arguments in the same post all by yourself, not cool, user, not cool at all.
>not quitting college and starting your own company (or at least being self employed) Wagecucks are sad.
Grayson Russell
Not him, but most extremism is pretty simple and just boils down to fear of change and the unknown plus a desire for a simpler world.
Parker Reed
>Biological determinism is social science Welp, at least I know im talking to a moron. It's good that I can clear that up. >Yup, anyone who disagrees with me on the nature of human behavior is just dumb >How can anyone disagree with ME? like LOL Okay pal >Meta shitposting You realize that I was saying that I know about jeeish culture more than you in a way that is da joos, right? Or, or are you actually so retarded that you thought that in the second paragraph I was blaming Jews for the displacement of white people? For the love of fuck user, why are you posting here?
Brainlets belong on /s4s/
Lincoln Morales
>There are people who think that idealogical differences between people are a simple as a knee jerk reaction to change >People like this exist >People like this vote Ah yes, I see your marxian critiques on the economy is because you're afraid of change, Mr Bolsheviks, how silly of you. Oh, me alt right, I see that you have some qualms with unlimited amounts of immigration entering your country and leading to massive demographic shifts.
How silly! You're just afraid of *insert your idealogy* it's just natural change! It's, praxeological even.
Anthony Hernandez
>another post of arguing with himself and still losing Just stop, user. So far it's still amusing but this is bound to step over in to tragic territory.
Ethan Collins
>Another post by an obvious shitposter who refuses to actually engage me Let me ask you a question, what do you think about the existence of race and biological mechanisms in human behavior as we've learned in the past 20 years studying neurology and ye old tein studies?