How can one be a Christian and not be a Calvinist? It seems any other option denies the supreme nature of God

make a biblical argument against prevenient grace and synergism; apostolic churches were extant prior to the compilation of the Bible, and continue to this day.

Not a Calvinist, but I know his answer to this.

Anyone who responds to learning of predestination with despair, with the feeling that it is unfair, is damned. But if you respond by asking for God's grace, with the hope that you may be redeemed even if you currently are not, then you are one of the saved.

What you have to admit to yourself, according to Calvin, is that you can't do it alone. You need God's help. Anyone who can't admit that is never going to make it.

But I feel this way regardless of my own standing on the damned-saved basis - if ANY immortal soul is created intentionally for damnation and not given hope to change its path, the god who created it is a monster to me. To ask him for help would be groveling to a tyrant.
I don't care if you argue that god's morality goes above mine, he created me with a moral compass and I will use it. What a calvinist god does every day is worse than any sin a mortal could even conceive of committing.

I know, it's tough. I'm not sure where I stand on this one, yet. I would say, though, that the people who emphasized grace--paul, Augustine, Calvin, etc.-- all experienced life altering conversions. They all felt saved despite themselves.

Also, you probably have, but if you haven't read the Brothers Karamazov, you ought to. Your sentiments are very Ivan.

I've read Notes and C&P, haven't gotten around to Brothers yet but it's on my list already

Calvinists are just neo-Gnostics

(note: pic does not include heretical views)

Calvinism limits God by making God unable to restore to man his free-will and ability to merit. The true doctrine is that God causes man to do good in a way that actualizes and preserves man's liberty, because God's divine will is on a different ontological plane to ours, it is able to act upon it in a way that does not destroy it's liberty, but rather perfects it.

Positive predestination to glory (heaven) is revealed Catholic doctrine - God has chosen, from all eternity, His elect: and gives them the efficacious grace that they might be saved.

Positive predestination to reprobation (hell) is heresy - God has not willed that any man sin, and caused him positively to sin and incur reprobation; rather, God merely *permits* man to refuse the sufficient grace that God gives him, while God withdraws the efficacious grace that would save the man if he were to co-operate with grace.

If there is no co-operation with God's grace and no merit, then predestination is arbitrary in absolutely every sense, because the Blessed Virgin Mary is neither better nor worse than Jezebel. In reality, God is able to sanctify us by causing us to co-operate with His grace, making us truly worthy of inheriting eternal glory in heaven.

Canons condemning Calvinism, taken from the Council of Trent, Decree on Justification (1547)

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man's power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.

Please read:
ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/MNGGRACE.HTM
archive.org/stream/Garrigou-LagrangeEnglish/Predestination - Garrigou-Lagrange, Reginald, O.P_#page/n0/mode/1up

Note: Thomism preserves God's primary causation in all things, but without destroying man's freedom. It is true that we can do not good thing without the help of God's grace moving us to do it, but that does not mean (a) that God's moving us to do good destroys our liberty, because He moves us in such a way that our liberty is preserved, or (b) that God's not giving us the grace to do good is the same as Him causing us to do evil, as God gives *sufficient* grace to all that they might be saved, and the reason that *sufficient* grace does not *efficaciously* arrive at the good and salvation, is that man freely sin in refusing to co-operate with the grace given to him, so that the cause of sin is in man's will and not in God, who merely permits man to sin (negative reprobation, as opposed to the positive reprobation of Calvin where God causes man to sin).

C.f.

John Calvin:
“From this it is easy to conclude how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be not by [God’s] will, but merely by his permission. Of course, so far as they are evils, which men perpetrate with their evil mind, as I shall show in greater detail shortly, I admit that they are not pleasing to God. But it is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.”

St. Thomas:
"God does reprobate some. For it was said above (Article 1) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (I:22:2). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (I:22:1). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.

. . . Reprobation differs in its causality from predestination. This latter is the cause both of what is expected in the future life by the predestined--namely, glory--and of what is received in this life--namely, grace. Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present--namely, sin; but it is the cause of abandonment by God. It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future--namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and deserted by grace. In this way, the word of the prophet is true--namely, "Destruction is thy own, O Israel."

Please read St. Thomas' article on Predestination here, which is a very good introduction :-
newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

Also, see here for the Catholic Encyclopedia's article on Predestination, another good introduction :-

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

1. This doctrine leads to profound humility. For by it the following texts take on a deep significance: “Not that we are sufficient to think anything of ourselves, as of ourselves: but our sufficiency is from God” (II Cor. 3:5); “No one has anything of his own but sin and lying” (Council of Orange, can. 22); “And lead us not into temptation”; “We are unprofitable servants” (Luke 17:10); “Not to us, O Lord, not to us; but to Thy name give glory” (Ps. 113:1); “As the potter’s clay is in his hand, . . . so man is in the hand of Him that made him” (Ecclus. 33:13f.); “The mercies of the Lord that we are not consumed” (Lam. 3:22); “Thy hands have made me and formed me” (Ps. 118:73); “Thou . . . hast redeemed us to God, in Thy blood” (Apoc. 5:9); “The mercy of the Lord is above all His works.” “Into Thy hands I commend My spirit” (Ps. 30:6); “What hast thou that thou hast not received?” “You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.” (Cf. Del Prado, op. cit., III, 151.) This is the basis of true mysticism, and especially of true humility. According to St. Augustine, as Del Prado notes (Ad .), there is no sin which another man commits, which I could not also commit, through the weakness of free will and my own frailty, and if I do not do so, not to us, Lord, not to us, but to Thy name be the glory! This ought to destroy the entire root of pharisaism in us; and hence in replying to the Pharisees, Christ often proclaimed the necessity of grace: “No man cometh to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him . . . My sheep hear My voice.”

2. This doctrine instils a profound sense of the necessity of prayer, of continual, interior prayer, full of confidence. For hidden, interior, most e6cacious grace, which leads up to consent, to the overcoming of temptation and drawing near to God must be sought. Thus the Sacred Scripture teaches us to pray: “Have mercy on me, O Lord, according to Thy great mercy. . . .God, be merciful to me, a sinner. . . . I am not worthy to be called Thy son . . . Father, I have sinned against heaven and before Thee. . . . Help Thou my unbelief. Create a clean heart in me, O God: and renew a right spirit within my bowels . . . Convert me, Lord, to Thee, and I shall be converted.” Again, it is written: “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven,” that is, give me Thy grace to perform in my actions what Thou commandest, and this perseveringly until death. Hence St. Augustine used to say: “Lord, give what You command, and command what You will.”

3. This doctrine likewise recommends the necessity of giving thanks for every good action performed by the help of God. Therefore does St. Paul say to the Thessalonians (5:17 f.): “Pray without ceasing. In all things give thanks”; and to the Ephesians (5:20): “Giving thanks always for all things.” In fact, this teaching leads almost normally to the prayer of contemplation wherein is considered the very profound action of God within us, mortifying and vivifying, that the soul may arrive at the perfect love of God, responding by its fiat to the entire will of God. In such contemplation, whether painful and obscure or joyful and luminous, the truth of those words of Tobias (13:1 f.) becomes apparent: “Thou art great, O Lord, forever, and Thy kingdom is unto all ages. For Thou scourgest, and Thou savest: Thou leadest down to hell, and bringest up again: and there is none that can escape Thy hand.” Likewise I Kings 2:6: “The Lord killeth and maketh alive, He bringeth down to hell and bringeth back again.”

4. The doctrine of intrinsically efficacious grace also leads to a high degree of the practice of the theological virtues, for it is closely identified with the sublime mystery of predestination maintained in all its loftiness, in accordance with the teaching of St. Paul (Rom. 8:28; Eph. 1:5); St. Augustine (De praedestinatione sanctorum, De dono perseverantiae), and St. Thomas (Ia, q. 23, a. 5). This doctrine is founded upon the word of God according to St. John (6:39): “Now this is the will of the Father who sent Me: that of all that He hath given Me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.”

This doctrine also strengthens hope, for the formal motive of hope is not our effort, but the help of God, as is often expressed in the psalms: “In Thee, O Lord, have I hoped, let me not be confounded forever”; “But the salvation of the just is from the Lord”; “Give praise to the Lord, for He is good”; and in Proverbs (28:26): “He that trusteth in his own heart, is a fool.”

Finally, charity toward God is greatly stimulated by this teaching for it is based upon the text from St. John’s First Epistle (4:10): “He hath first loved us”; and He hath loved not only by conferring sufficient grace, but efficacious grace as well, reaching into our innermost being. Therefore does St. Paul write: “Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ?” (Rom. 8:35.) And Christ Himself had said: “I am come that they may have life and have it more abundantly.”

From Chapter VII of: ewtn.com/library/theology/gracegarrlagr.htm

Quoting anathemas from the Council of Trent at Protestants is pretty funny. It's like you people have no awareness at all.

Interesting.
What about people who are ignorant?

>Quoting anathemas from the Council of Trent at Protestants is pretty funny.

Some times a shout can wake someone up. And the canons are useful because they define the heresies in exact terms. Plus, it needs to be made clear that there is one Christian authority on earth with anything like a credible claim to issue such anathemas. The Protestant doctor with his private interpretation is a joke compared to the apostolic church of Rome which has stood for twenty centuries and is the mother of countless saints and martyrs.

No biblical exegesis at all. What a surprise.

Blah, blah. We said you were wrong therefore you are. This authority has authority and is necessary because we say it is. It's always the same.

If God is truly supreme then your denial of his supremacy is indistinguishable from your affirmation of his supremacy.

>No biblical exegesis
>Literally posted Augustine's biblical exegesis

>Blah, blah. We said you were wrong therefore you are. This authority has authority and is necessary because we say it is. It's always the same.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his teachings: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Yeah and he gave the keys to all of the other apostles two chapters later (Mt. 18:18). But I guess when he gave them to Peter he was establishing a permanent special bishopric which would pass down through all time with the unique ability of defining dogma ex cathedra and however many other things. It's easy to read a lot of things into a text that aren't there, isn't it?

t. someone who has never read an actual exegetical text

That's the easy one: people who would be saved if they only understood the law. God may either help then to understand or remove the source of deceit. One way to do this is to provide a life experience that provides a person insight to their beliefs.

It's easy especially because that's how they've been reading it since the very start.

I guess real exegesis was born in the 16th century?

>people who are ignorant?
no such thing

I wonder if you've ever read the dissenting arguments against Pastor Aeternus from the time of Vatican I. The idea that there is a consensus patrum regarding the interpretation of "rock" is ridiculous, whatever some quote-mining apologetics site tries to sell you.

There is literally no exegesis posted in the above section. It is just proof-texting. Please do not pass that off as the quality of argument that is actually present in Augustine's work.

Sad to think such a smart man is now in hell.

That is what predestination is, so yes that's what Calvinists believe

pls elaborate