What can you tell me in depth about the Tocharian culture of Xinjiang? Other than they were an Indo European Culture which happened to live in what is modern day western China and followed Buddhism?
I've always been intrigued by them, how much do we have on their people and culture? I know we have some of their poems and texts and that they had their own particular script, but just how much we know about them? Their way of life, their state organisation, their kingdoms, their architecture, what life in their society looked like.
I'd like some serious answers, no autism please, i know this is Veeky Forums, but for once, just once, i'd like to have a serious, meaningful discussion about a historical topic that is actually, quite interesting.
They are an interesting bunch, I reckon they more than likely settled in the Turfan area and then later on may have been proto Kushans.
Yeah i heard about Kanishka the king of the Kushans probably being of Tocharian stock, plus they were from what i gather, instrumental to the spread of Buddhism in China. I just wish we knew more about what their culture and their cities looked like, their day to day life, their manner of dress, their customs, it seems altogether all so fascinated yet so shrouded in mystery.
It's not like all their cities were destroyed. The Uyghur turks invaded and intermarried with a lot of the local population in the Turfan Depression
True, but i'd guess the cities today aren't an accurate representation of how they looked back on Tocharian times, because, y'know, modernisation and all... though i'm sure there are some archaeological sites on them, what would be a good place to look at if i really wanted to have a glimpse of how Tocharian society actually looked like?
There are many societies like that unfortunately . They were indo-Iran and were mentioned in the Vedas as tusharas and the gathas I think. There is a lot yet to be known but I doubt they were all that advanced maybe small townships and villages. But they may have changed evolved and intermarriage as a culture and THEN they became kushans so they are legitimate descendents of the Tocharians. Start there I guess
In some areas the uighers have up to 60% european admixture
Are there any of them left or are they all mixed now?
So atleast, with that in mind, would it be safe to assume that they were somehow similar to the bactrians and related peoples culturally to some degree?
We fucked them up good t. Chink
Ehh i believe the culture that displaced them was that of the Uyghurs, not the Han chinese per say, from what i can gather, their relations with the Han were at least amiable, with many embassies and envoys being sent to their lands and vice versa, and the Tocharians being in part directly responsible for the spread of Buddhism into china.
"The tarim mummies" is a very good introduction to the discovery of the mummies, their clothes and burial features, some genetic analysis, and a general overview of the history of the tarim basin and taklamakan. The author makes a fairly good case that the ancient mummies are the same people as the tocharians.
However, it is important to note that the tocharians are first known from their language, which is first foynd aroynd 800ad iirc. Obviously this is quite a gap between the actual mummies and the tocharoi...long enough for them to have been some slightly different group of indoeuropeans, or A mix of successive maves of migration.
I suspect there could have been a large "scythian" contribution (who are a somewhat separate group: the scythians spoke iranian languages, while tocharian a and b appear to be from a much earlier subfamily of proto indoeuropean that broke off very early. The tarim mummies are often described as nordic or celtic in appearance (ginger and blonde hair), and their language is a centum, not a sentum language , which befo43 their discovery were seen as a western indoeuropean trait.
Also, the horse and chariot spread from the steppe into the tocharians area very early, and from their to china. Hence chinese civilization owes a lot to these early indoeuropeans.
I too would like to know more about this fascinating people.
>So atleast, with that in mind, would it be safe to assume that they were somehow similar to the bactrians and related peoples culturally to some degree? Very much so because one of the first points of contact of a fairly organized civilization centered around trade and agriculture would have been a major influence on what is considered 'advancement'. So you might also want to read up on hte BMAC culture which was one of the first cultures to develop and spread in the area during the time of the great indo-aryan migrations.
I've read a lot about the mummies too, and i do find them fascinating and will definately check more on them. I heard that the Yuezhi mentioned in the chinese records may very likely be Tocharians/Proto-Tocharians as well and would like to know more about it.
I did suspect some scythian influence! Considering they are relatively close to the eastern scythian tribes and other east iranic peoples. I'm reading a lot on their language and script, they are quite unique, but sadly yet very poorly understood. Now, how similar, in terms of cultural practices, day to day life and so on would you say they were to their neighbors? More specifically peoples like the central asian sogdians and bactrians (I mean pre hellenic bactrians of course.)?
>we Mongols, Turks, other nomadic and semi-nomadic peoples did. You have trouble controlling your Uyghur population.
The Greco-Bactrian Kingdom is interesting too.
Thanks a lot, will certainly read more on them.
If you're interested in old, dead, cultures: look into the Varna Gold.
Why go back that far, just look at the hippies, that shit is hilarious, most of them are old single wastrels and mentally retarded.
Will definately take a look later, thanks for the info.
I meant, at the Varna Necropolis, not the hippies.
>The Greco-Bactrian Kingdom is interesting too. Indo-Greeks are indeed interesting, the adjoining of Buddhist and greek culture is a unique blend of practicality and spirituality.
Another beautiful thing destroyed by the Turks.
>Also, the horse and chariot spread from the steppe into the tocharians area very early, and from their to china. Hence chinese civilization owes a lot to these early indoeuropeans.
>We fucked them up good Actually the Indo-Iranians of the Tarim Basin City states were good friends of the Chinese Dynasties.
Because they weren't Steppeniggers.
It was the Uyghur/Nomadic Kings that moved into those cities that became the problem.
They were not iranian, thats what makes them so interesting. They represented an unique branch of ie. Also on centum side of isogloss.
"Shuhua Xu, Huang Wei, Qian Ji, and Jin Li. "Analysis of Genomic Admixture in Uyghur and Its Implication in Mapping Strategy." The American Journal of Human Genetics 82 (2008): pages 883-894. As individuals, this study's Uygurs' "European" ancestral component ranges from as low as 48.7% in one person to as high as 62.2% in another person.
It seems Uighurs are more europid than mongoloid by very little ancient Uighurs relgion was also buddism and manicheism(and iranian religion) so it is safe to assume part of the tocharians were absorbed into Uighurs who were non-nomadic But from the paintings from that time, i guess the ruling class was mongoloid pic related
tocharian script is straight up pokemon gold and silver
That or people drew them similar to themselves especially back in ancient times.
(copypasta) >Qin A powerful red-haired Caucasoid from the Western frontier uses Western inventions such as the chariot to invade the East and conquers all the yellow-skinned submissive Mongoloids and rules over them. He institutes strict laws and standards throughout his empire to dominate and control his subjects and this leads to the Chinese cultural identity.
>Han Chinese Mongoloid peasants rebel and oust their Caucasoid masters and make a peasant their supreme emperor. Thanks to all the technology and culture brought to them by their Western conquerors, the Chinese experience a golden age.
>3 Kingdoms Constant warfare between a bunch of peasants who want to be emperor. Someone writes a bullshit novel about them 1000 years later making them superheroes.
>Sui then Tang A northern Turkic people called the Xianbei conquer all of China. Tang is another golden age where Western culture is prevalent. For instance, the beauty standard is imported from Caucasoid Turkic northerners and fat lewd chicks are seen as the ultimate sex symbol.
>Liao then Jin Northern steppe warriors invade and conquer half of China and enslave the Chinese population.
>Song The remaining southern half of China.
>Yuan Founded by Genghis Khan (who had red hair according to historical documents) and his Mongolian descendants. They first conquer Jin, which is already foreign-occupied, and then they conquer Song and rape all the Chinese women. Chinese are relegated to the lowest social class in the multi-ethnic Yuan empire.
>Ming Chinese peasants rebel and oust the Mongols. They once again make a peasant their supreme emperor.
>Qing Northern steppe warriors called the Manchu invade and conquer all of China and subjugate the entire population. They force all Chinese men to shave half their head and massacre 30 million Chinese.
>Modern Japan defeats Qing in a war and liberates the Chinese from 300 years of Manchu domination. Later, Japan weakens the KMT, and Communist peasants take over China.
found it on /pol/. go figure
>The Tang capital was the largest city in the world at its time, the population of the city wards and its suburban countryside reaching 2 million inhabitants. The Tang capital was very cosmopolitan, with ethnicities of Persia, Central Asia, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Tibet, India, and many other places living within. Naturally, with this plethora of different ethnicities living in Chang'an, there were also many different practiced religions, such as Buddhism, Nestorian Christianity, Manichaeism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and Islam being practiced within. With widely open access to China that the Silk Road to the west facilitated, many foreign settlers were able to move east to China, while the city of Chang'an itself had about 25,000 foreigners living within. Exotic green-eyed, blonde-haired Tocharian ladies serving wine in agate and amber cups, singing, and dancing at taverns attracted customers.
Tocharian women sound kinda hot. Would stick my yellow dick in.
>The good fame of the strong spreads in the ten directions. Reverence, respect, obeisance, (and) honor (are) to be attained through strength from everyone. To be conquered quickly (are) enemies. To be obtained quickly (is) prosperity
Pic un-related, just like Scythians and Tocharians
>qin shi huang was a caucasoid Literally we wuz KHANZ
What are the distinguishable physical differences between a Tocharian and say a Scythian or Sogdian?
Like they all seem to wear pants, tunics with popped collars, etc.
OP here, would like to know that too.
interdaasting! tocharians invented the chinese restaurant
>arr rook a rike
literally, just PIE clones with diverged languages
>Uighurs who were non-nomadic i met a few Uighurs and they claim to be Uzbeks with just a different name
Uyghurs like other Turko-Mongols were Mongolian nomadic and had their own Khanate thing like their brethren
they did their domination/genocide rape thingy and erased the Tocharians from history
Just like Uzbeks they still retain some sexy female caucasoid dna
I wish the Turks didn't assimilate them so we'd still have blonde qts to fug in China.
ARYANZ N SHIET
Scythian is a blanket term for various Europoid and non Europoid nomads who had very similar cultures and language.
The Tocharians are a Europoid group that lived in Xinjiang with blonde and red hair, it is believed that the Chinese called them the Yuezhi. We wanted an alliance with the Yuezhi against the eternal roach (xiongnu Turks) but the whities downplayed the sandnigger horde and got defeated. The remaining Yuezhi moved South West and established the Kushan Empire, which included Sogdiana.
Kushans continued friendly contact and trade with the Chinese until their downfall from something I forgot. Some uighurs still have some slight Europoid blood. The radicals think this makes them the original custodians of the land, but they were invaders. Like we are. Lol.
A white cunt made that copypasta. /pol/ is eurocentric in a very stupid way like how the afrocentrics think Egypt had a black majority.
Scythian is specifically Indo-European
the blanket term for mixed nomads who adopted Scythian culture are: Huns, Tatars etc..
>The historical text Records of the Three Kingdoms described Liu Bei as a man seven chi and five cun tall, with long arms that extended beyond his knees, and ears so large that he could see them.
>The historical novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms by Luo Guanzhong gave a similar description about Liu Bei's physical appearance, but with additional features. It mentioned that Liu Bei was seven chi and five cun tall, with ears so large that they touched his shoulders and that he could even see them, long arms that extended beyond his knees, a fair and handsome face, and lips so red that it seemed as though he wore lipstick.
>Liu Bei >Mongoloid
Before genetic testing and archeology, Chinese accounts about ancient whites living in the West were considered legendary.
I wonder if somewhere in the future, the existance of white people in Europe will be considered mythical too.
You know many of the descriptions of the RoTK are mythologized right?
like i said on the OP, no /pol/ack autism please, lets keep this a serious discussion.
>The historical text Records of the Three Kingdoms
Hurr durr whites gonna be extinct in the near future ah-so!
and various Mongoloid and other people practice it
Liu Bei: We emo now!
So you're saying Sogdians are Tocharians? But then why do Sogdians speak an Iranic language?
They went almost extinct in their native homeland of Central Asia, though, from the olden days of Bactria and Sogdiana only a few Kalash and Nuristanis remain.
Why can't the same happen in Europe? I can see a few white people surviving in the mountain valles of the Alps and the Carpathians, but on the rest of the continent they will be overrun and become the stuff of legend told at fireplaces, maybe they can become mythical creatures like the pre-Celtic inhabitants of Britain and Ireland became elves and the Thuatha de Dannan.
>indigenous whites of asia replaced and erased
it is the logical conclusion of a historical pattern of indigenous whites being replaced
Because Central Asia is the home of constantly moving nomadic people. Of course a race could be """"""""""""""extinct"""""""""""" there because either their ancestors packed bags and migrated elsewhere and those who remained got absorbed by the likes of the Turkics.
Something that Europe isn't.
>Buying into /pol/'s fearmongering
>Because Central Asia is NOW the home of constantly genociding mongoloids. ofcourse the indigenous people either go extinct or seek refuge farther away from the encroaching onslaught. just leave your homeland or become history.
Nope, they were not sogdians, but they did conquer Sogdiana as the Kushan empire.
also, to the /pol/acks spewing their dumbassery...please go.
Is this what a europid would classically look like?
>Now Tss. The Indo-Iranian/Indo-European Steppe Nomads were massacring & raiding cunts themselves. The Scythians were ousted from their homelands by the Sarmatai and some of them had to live like Hellenic Kings along the Black Sea Coast. They sacked Urartu, Persians hated them, and Chinese called them barbarians and associated red-hair with being a barbarous nigger.
Not to mention the likes of the Turkics managed to move in because every Indo-Iranian fuckwad was moving southwards and creating states in what is now Northern India/Afghanistan/Tajikistan/Western China.
this. those indigenous whites simply got absorbed by the more powerful group. not through violence or genocide as poltards would have you believe.
it was a peaceful and calm merger. nothing even close to genocide.
and remember the eurasian steppe was populated by neanderthals before you white people replaced them. the steppe is constantly moving and changing.
compare the situation to the indigenous manchu/yakuts of east asian steppe who maintained existence in the steppe for eons and still remain undisturbed
>before you white people replaced them.
When was the last time you left your house?
>it was a peaceful and calm merger. nothing even close to genocide.
So is this swagmaster a Sogdian? Tocharian from the same area? Scythian? Kushan?
I have a feeling time period plays a part in who would be depicted too.
if the Indo-Iranians were genociding people as you say, then there would not have been any mongoloid (or any other race) left in eurasia to threaten or eradicate them
but the facts show contrary to your bullshit, that all the "genocided" races now exist in newly acquired lands, while the "aggressors" simply vanished
>no Uratu >No existing Pre Iranian culture >No BMAC Look Turks ended up genociding Indo Aryans from Central Asia with the exception of Uyghurs, Tajiks and Uzbeks, but stop claiming that Scythians and Iranians didn't do the same. That's just what Central Asia does, it's shitty for the development of strong settled societies and favors nomadic ones instead. Once one people move in, the previous inhabitants move out or get assimilated/genocided.
>then there would not have been any mongoloid (or any other race) left in eurasia to threaten or eradicate them >Implying Assyrians, Persians and Chinese, and non Indo-whatever Nomads are pushovers.
They did cause the disappearance of Urartu and the Greek Petty Kingdoms in what is now Ferghana.
Not to mention "genocide" is a very inaccurate term. As with Turkics in the Middle East later on, the Indo Iranians who migrated and established Kingdoms of their own like in Southern Central Asia tended to incorporate themselves into the local culture.
First you complain that they were raiding and massacring cunts, then you complain when they stop doing that and finally settle down into states.
What the fuck mang.
>You can't do both Niggers massacred other people to make a point and then include their shit to their Kingdoms for god knows how long.
Look at the fucking Mongols. Massacred Chinks, Muslims? Check. Settled down and became Chinese style Emperors or Iranic Shahs? Fucking Check.
Normans massacring Saxons? Check. Settling down and creating the Kingdom of England? Check
Can't you into history?
I'm not saying you can't to both, I'm saying it's retarded to complain about both.
Can't you into logic?
You're the one who's complaining you idiot. >HURDURR MUH WHITE ANCESTORS OF THE STEPPES WERE EXTINCT >No they weren't. They just moved out and the ones left were absorbed by new tenants in Central Asia. >HURR BECAUSE THOSE GENOCIDING MONGOLOIDS >Nigga it was always home to violent Nomad peoples. The Indo-Iranian nomads were such people. And this part is funny >INDO-IRANIANS DINDU NUFFIN WRONG, OR ELSE THEY WOULDVE WIPED OUT EVERYONE. >Dude, these guys did trouble a lot of people and kingdoms disappeared because of them but other people weren't pushovers.
You're the one insisting that a great wrong was done to Indo-Iranians and trying to justify this view while I was just talking about a very dynamic region filled with migrating nomads in which the Indo-whatever were but a part of.
Holy shit I'm fucking done with you.
None of that is me, bruh. But again, you can't damn them if they do and damn them if they don't. Makes you look dumb.
Considering all these cultures influenced eachother, could be any of them really.
indeed eurasia would have remained Scythian from Hungary to Manchuria, if the Scythians were the genocidal maniacs you make them out to be
fact is the IE had technological advantages over the reindeer herding mongoloids.
if IE used their technological advantages (wheels, horse, chariot, steel, composite bow) by applying a genocidal policy toward the mongolid reindeer hunters, there would be no mongolid survivors in eurasia today. there would infact be no race in eurasia beside the IE race, if that was infact the case.
instead the IE policy was tolerant towards mongoloids and adopted lone mongoloids into the IE nomad fold, these mongoloids learned the ways of their IE hosts and adopted IE technology and culture.
once the mongoloid genetic directive felt their hosts were no longer needed, they exterminated their hosts/mentors with the tools that they got from them.
but please go ahead and rewrite history its not like turko-mongols are known for slaughtering and exterminating countless millions
See Particularly the last line.
I guess it might just be a generic "foreigner".
I mean, if Greeks depicted pretty much any barbarian with a Phrygian cap and trousers, I don't see why the Chinese wouldn't do something similar.
>Urartu >genocided by Scythians
Urartu maintained its independence and power, going through a mere dynastic change, as a local Armenian dynasty (later to be called the Orontids) overthrew the ruling family with the help of the Median army. Ancient sources support the latter version: Xenophon, for example, states that Armenia, ruled by an Orontid king, was not conquered until the reign of Median king Astyages (585– 550 BC) – long after Median invasion of the late 7th century BC.
Scythians/Tocharians/Parthians/Bactrians did not engage in genocide that is a bucket-on-head mongoloid thing that occurs when mongols acquire neat western gadgets
Scythians/Tocharians/Parthians/Bactrians/Medes/Sogdians/Andronovo traded and conquered as typical as any other ancient IE civilization much like the Greeks, Armenians, Hittites, Persians, Minoans and other IE people but none of them engaged in genocide of an entire race of millions, that is a exclusively mongoloid thing
>Everyone was Mongols :DDDD Yes, Non-Indo Whatever were genocidal maniacs. Truly, no persian nor arab today survive in the middle east and everyone there is Turkic following the great seljuk invasions.
>equating IE conquering with genocidal mongoloid >Alexander the Great is a genocidal maniac on par with Ghengis Khan >Cyrus on par with genocidal maniac Timurlane >Scythian/Tocharians/Hittites/Medes conquering on par with mongoloids genocidal pathology
>no persian nor arab today survive in the middle east and everyone there is Turkic following the great seljuk invasions.
what is ex-aryan kazakstan/uzbekistan/turkmenistan/afghanistan/turkestan/persia/azerbaijan/turkey persia turned into a wasteland inhabited by bowlegged pinhole eyes at worst and elliot rodgerses at best
Jesus fuck guys, i thought i've told you guys...
Bring this racial and genocide bullshit back to /pol/, lets please go back to discussing the unique and interesting Tocharian culture please.
Oh wow this thread got flooded with /pol/tier nonsense. Where the fuck are the mods?
>IE is a solid identity LoL. >Aryan This is where your argument dies.
Stop whining you pussy.
More like you stop being a retarded, autistic stormfag, seriously i made this thread so we could discuss tocharian culture, not babble about /pol/ tier bullshit.
Fuck up cunt you are blatantly drawing away from the historicity of Tocharians and turning it into a european ethnicity circle jerk.
WE WERE RULERS AND SUCH
but how will his pasty pimply ass feel any better about itself unless it jumps through hoops to relate to an ancient exotic and almost inextant civilization?
>hurr durr the ethnic makeup of asia has always been the same for the past 10,000 years
>sob sniffle stop challenging the status quo because it'll hurt my pride
Going back to the topic, any good depictions of Tocharians in art, literature or maybe even popular culture?
no idea what you're rambling about but your european ass doesn't have jack to do with the tocharians m9
WAKE ME UP
There are still plenty of caucasoid white people in Central Asia and the Middle East. You just don't think they are white because they're Muslims.
>plenty of mongol rape babies people still left in Central Asia and the Middle East
the reason why Tocharians vanished:
Mongoloid raids and invasions as some of the deadliest conflicts in human history.
Large areas of Asia were seriously depopulated, as every city, village or town was subject to destruction. Each soldier was required to execute a certain number of persons, with the number varying according to circumstances. For example, after the conquest of Urgench, each Mongol warrior – in an army group that might have consisted of two tumens (units of 10,000) – was required to execute 100 people .
Mongoloid invasions induced population extermination on a scale never seen before particularly in Central Asia and eastern Europe.