Would Veeky Forums consider Oda Nobunaga a historical 'good guy' or 'bad guy'?

>he

Thanks Japan.

Weebs will stop at nothing to ruin everything with their autistic obsession

>being this pleb

For the Sengoku period.

Also, you.

I dunno.

He was smart enough to rule Japan, and all that. Saw the potential of European muskets early on, too.

At least he was Toyotomi "I've gone mad; let's invade Korea" Hideyoshi.

Sauce on pic: "Drifters" by Kouta Hirano. Nobunaga is a perverted badass there.

When did "weeaboo/weeb" change from meaning "someone not from Japan obsessed with Japanese pop culture to the point of preferring it to their own" to meaning "anyone related to anime/manga, be it by watching, making, or mentioning it"?
How does two people responding to a direct question equate to "WEEBS RUIN EVERYTHING"?

Youtubers like FilthyFrank have really done a number on the minds of our youths, huh? Stay in school, kid.

I haven't been to Veeky Forums a lot recently, but shouldn't you keep this low-level of rhetoric on /v/, /b/, or /r9k/?

Come back when you don't depict male historical figures as females in your Siberian Wolf Bone Engravings

Neither, he's historical THE guy.

>when you don't depict male historical figures as females in your Siberian Wolf Bone Engravings

Gee user, I wish I made those, but I didn't.

Some Japanese producer in some corporate office in Tokyo either thought it up or got it presented to him, and some committee gave it the greenlight to be made.

"Weeaboos" have nothing to do with it.

Come back when you accept that japanese pop culture has been a part of Veeky Forums since its inception, Newfriend.

And the reason he made that decision is because weebs eat that shit up like nobody's business.
If there was no demand there would be no supply

Do you even know what a weeb is?

The reason Veeky Forums exists

Enough said

Nobunaga was probably the best leader Japan ever produced at that time. It's amazing how the 16th and 17th centuries produced spectacular rulers all across Europe and Asia like Nobunaga, Suleiman, Charles V, Shah Abbas, Akbar, and so many others.

If Nobunaga hadn't died, his Japan would've modernized with European tech and anything else he could get his hands on. He'd build an ocean-going navy, promote trade, and destroy a lot of what he disliked about the backwardness of Japanese society.

Shame that Masamune really only gained prominence after Hideyoshi was basically ruler. Japan probably would've been far better off with him at the head.

Neither. History doesn't deal in 'good guys' and 'bad guys'

That's what lit is for.

Very true. Date was big into Christianity, foreign trade, and navigation. A Japan under him would be as forward-looking as Nobunaga's.

Christianity a shit

Actually friendo it would have been beneficial for them to convert to Christianity so that they would share something with the European traders. People like being around what they are comfortable with.

Technically historically accurate.

How the fuck does Japan go from building Spanish-style galleons and then isolating itself from the rest of the world? What kind of lunacy is that? They're an archipelago; they have to participate in maritime commerce.

honor is for faggots who didn't conquer japan

The Tokugawa Shogunate cut out all of its former enemies from participating in the government. Because of that the ostracized clans looked to trade with foreigners to gain support and they became stupid rich really quick because of that.

Fearing what this could do to the government, the Tokugawa shut down all contact with outsiders on pain of death.

>What kind of lunacy is that?

Standard xenophobia, I think.

Based Nobunaga

A historical kurayzee guy.

Nobunagun is pretty fun.

Take a few minutes to watch this:
youtu.be/QsJ9U_Ew1k8?t=19m37s

When /pol/ tier shit goes too far.

Lmfao

no, he was a big meany

Nihon, I'm O.D.A.

Uh, you don't get to bring Samurai.

Now is not the time for unification. That comes later.

Well, congratulations! You got yourself killed.

Now what's the next step of your master plan?

Invading Korea.

Unifying this island!

With no Katana!

They work for the Daimyo.

The Eyepatched man.

This. I actually just passed that part in Making of Modern Japan.

>t. butthurt weeb
you know words change meaning through time, whatever people decide to use it for become its meaning doesnt matter what your autistic internet dictionary tells you

One of the most important events is the shimabara rebellion, where a group of Christian peasants and some ronin rebelled and occupied a castle.

The Tokugawa had problems raising troops, and the feudal armies, which had gone over a decade since the last major fighting, had alot of trouble.

Before that point the Tokugawa had continued to look into purchasing the latest European weapons like mortars, and was even considering an invasion of the Philippines, however after the poor showing at Shimabara they decided to go in the opposite direction

Imagine if those ostracized clans, ronin, and Christian peasants fled Japan to SE Asia or even Australia/NZ. Imagine them colonizing and creating a divergent Japanese civilization that's open to Christianity and Western science/arts?

Fast-forward to the Opening of Japan and lo and behold, one of the foreign consuls is the descendant of said exiles and has a bustling economy via commerce, manufacturing, finance, etc. and a top-notch army and navy in their new homeland.

somewhat honorable power hungry warlord

Masamune??

I am not a fan of alt history simply because things are hard to predict The idea of a Christianized Japan always fascinated me however. I doubt they would have become toe puppets Europeans desired, I think they would have tried to use western resources to forward their own ambitions.

alright get these guys into the shogunate

if they hadn't gone isolationist, they would've just started their post-Perry westernization early. Which would have been fucking terrifying for everybody else in the region.

Look at what they were able to do to Russia with only 50 years of start-up time, imagine what they would've been like with 200 years head start.

They already had a pretty modern army equipment at that point, perhaps if they had modernized their navies and kept up with the new military organization being developed in 17th century Europe they would have been quite a force, but that is a big if

There are no "good" and "bad" in history.

That being said, if we judge by Western morals, then Nobunaga would probably be a "bad" man fighting for a "good" cause.

>Which would have been fucking terrifying for everybody else in the region.
Nope.jpg
With 1600's Western tech? Really?

They'd have problems messing with China alone. Or even contending with the newfound Manchu power.
>Imagine if those ostracized clans, ronin, and Christian peasants fled Japan to SE Asia
>Imagine them colonizing and creating a divergent Japanese civilization that's open to Christianity and Western science/arts?
>This weeablord/Christfaggot fantasy.

They fucking did. And you know what happened? They all gathered in the Philippines.

Did they colonize the place? No. Half lived in what are called Plaza Dilaw (The Yellow Quarter) alongside the Filipino Chinese in the few fortified towns that existed in the 16th-17th Century Philippines. The militarily skilled half served with the Spanish Colonial military in the Philippines. This was 1500's-1600's Philippines: Spain can't transport a sizable European force all the way to the Islands. So most of their soldiers and sailors were locals. We're talking Christian Chinese marines and sailors, the mass of the army formed by subject Filipino warriors and allied Christianized Filipino tribes, and of course, Christian Ronin.

They became Spanish subjects. The noble Japanese exiles were Christianized and were lumped to the "Principalia" Class, which was a class of local nobility that converted to Christianity, like formerly Muslim/Animist Filipino "Datus" (Chieftains) or some Merchant Christian Chinese. They took on Spanish names and as centuries went by, got absorbed into the Filipino population. The highest ranking Japanese exile to ever arrive in the Philippines, a goddamn Daimyo called Takayama Ukon, took on a Christian Spanish name: Don Justo Tacayama.

As far as they were concerned they were done with Japan. As was any East Asian who migrated to Southeast Asia: they went there to escape their lives in East Asia.

The plan I filled with the emperor lists me, my samurai, hideyoshi over here, and only one of you.

First one to talk gets to stay in my clan.

He was literally the greatest hero of the country,

Torenaga was a direct expy of Tokugawa, not Oda.

>tfw you will never be Anjin
>tfw you were born too late to ever meet Mifune-sempai

Kinda both?

dudes like a Japanese Julius Caesar i guess in the sense he was both tyrant and reformer, an asshole yet open minded

More like a japanese Oliver Cromwell before Oliver Cromwell

Lotta loyalty for a hired rounin.

Any good biographies?

Tadakatsu was a big guy.

Tell me about Takeda, why does he wear the mask?

what the fuck is up with chuuni names like that
Cromwell was also called Angry Heaven's Flame

That was a joke. And demons in Japanese cultures aren't the same as demons in Western cultures.

He's a nobody compared to Date Masamune

This is how I know you aren't any kind of historian or worth listening to.

History doesn't deal in "good" and "bad" or "good" and "evil."

He was at least comparable.

The only two daimyo that could Nobunaga problems were Kenshin and Shingen. Ieyasu in his prime maybe.

Who /Sanada/ here?

a historical 'based god' would be a more fitting description

No he was a loser.
>get killed by his own general
>Not even was shogun

I wonder, did Mitsuhide cut him down under the moonlight after a dramatic fight? Or did the mere act of betrayal and hopelessness of the situation cause Nobunaga to commit seppuku out of shame?
Historical records seem to point to the latter, but two proud samurai like those two? Nobunaga had to be enraged enough to draw his sword.

>get killed by his own general
It is a constant in great historical figures to die by betrayal so this counts as a compliment for him.
>Not even was shogun
He was above the shogun, Yoshiaki was his little bitch.

Ranmaru cut off his head and then he killed himself. Their bodies were consumed in the fire.

At first he was good, but than turned bad, because of posession.

>>someone not from Japan obsessed with Japanese pop culture to the point of preferring it to their own" to meaning "anyone related to anime/manga, be it by watching, making, or mentioning it"?
Filthy Frank actually makes the same point that you are doing , friend . Watch his videos more carefully next time .

Every significant person in the warring states periods spent about half their free time coming up with new names for themselves.

>is this historical character a good guy or a bad guy
Please don't.
The only thing that matters is if they're big guys or not.

>not takeda

Who /sado/ here?

They were Takeda vassals though. Masayuki was wasted being someone's vassal honestly; way too clever to not be a big player himself although maybe not pushing for that is an example of his clverness.

Based Date

>implying Nobunaga died at Honnouji

He wasn't "good" or "bad." He grew from a psychotic youth into a great leader. Killed lots of people. Had a form of honor despite his brutality and underhanded ways. You could see it from either perspective.

Daily reminder that japan belongs to the emperor, not some power hungry shogun

Kill yourself

No one doubts that omae.

The Shogun only acts out the Emperor's will, even a child knows that.

Does /hit/ know of any decent books that go over the Sengoku period?

Play the samurai warriors or nobunaga ambition games.

Bad for the slaughter at Mount hie.

>implying being the Shogun actually mattered in Japanese politics

>historical 'good guy' or 'bad guy'

There is no such thing.
Grow up!

I learned like 80% of what I know through Video games. Sengoku Rance is completely exagerated but gives a good idea of what the big (for you) daimyos are known for. Nobunaga's ambition has like 1800 unique officers all with a short bio.