If Hell eternal? If so, why is punishment infinite for finite transgressions?
Why does God command us to turn the other cheek but never seems to take transgressions against himself so lightly?
If Hell eternal? If so, why is punishment infinite for finite transgressions?
Why does God command us to turn the other cheek but never seems to take transgressions against himself so lightly?
The most common response I've seen is that for sinning against an infinite entity you get infinite time. The reasoning seems watery but I can't nail down exactly why.
Because the governments and elders needed to scare the people into submission. If an eternal hell is real, I don't think anyone deserves it. Not Genghis Khan, not Stalin, not Mao.
God made you eternal, can't take that away.
You choose to avoid heaven, order has to be maintained for ensure happiness of all beings.
You won't cease to exist, you'll just live outside of God influence because you wanted so.
>you wont cease to exist, you just exist apart from god
If god is omnipresent, how is this not ceasing to exist?
>can't take that away.
Well to be fair, yes he could.
He won't. He made us in His image from eternity towards eternity.
God is not an impersonal energy we analyze and discuss - He is a Personal being, you can have a relation with.
His laws that are for us to comprehend are covered in the scriptures.
So why couldn't you then, realizing an eternity apart from him is horrible, turn back to him?
Why would God give us a mind that could not comprehend?
And why would a Personal Being© need a blood sacrifice to forgive me? Even regular people can forgive wrongdoings without anything special. I'm essentially asking why is he such a drama queen?
Your mind can comprehend God as a Person and know Him - your mind is enough to have bestowed upon you endless joys.
Also the mind you have now it's not the mind God intended for us - it's a dumbed down version resulted from the original sin.
Man before that was much superior and spiritual, he didn't require food, sleep or any sustenance outside of God - just imagine how much time Adam spent without rest naming every single being on earth - to remember all the names and do it right requires lots of mental power.
The Personal being showed you how to join the Love of Trinity - and trough that Love you get resurrected, it was not a mere act of Divine power, the Son of God could've restored humanity with a snap of fingers. Instead He showed us the way of life towards Life, towards Him everlasting paradise.
Read the dogma and catechism all you need is there.
Be humble, pride gets you nowhere.
Because of my pride.
>Man before that was much superior and spiritual, he didn't require food, sleep or any sustenance outside of God - just imagine how much time Adam spent without rest naming every single being on earth - to remember all the names and do it right requires lots of mental power.
More events and important aspects from the life of the first man now Saint Adam are in the Pentateuch if you take your time to read it.
WE WUZ 969 YEARS OLD N SHEIT
He showed the way to heaven yeah yeah. The Crucifixion is a blood sacrifice. Human sacrifice. Before that oxes and rams.
Why is God seemingly incapable of just forgiving us in his endless wisdom and power?
>pride gets you nowhere
Neither does avoiding the questions
Can I ask how old do you think planet earth and the human race are?
In answer to your question OP, I was taught that on the Last Judgment God will show every human what they truly are. To give you an analogy, picture a guy in a dark room with cheeto dust on his fingers and a great big neckbeard leading all the way down to his navel - he's completely oblivious to how repulsive he looks until someone switches on the light.
Are you knowing how God thinks in order to give Him suggestions?
God read the catechism if you're interesting in how we understand it from Jesus and trough Holy Spirit in church. You'll find it more comprehensive there.
I may be too stupid and lack proper English skills to be able to communicate what I know properly, and what I know might be poisoned by my pride.
Are Gods lights on?
I really don't get why people in hell cant say "OH FUCK!!! OOWWWW!!! I DIDNT KNOW YOU WERE REAL!! IM SORRY, ILL SING YOUR PRAISES AND WORSHIP YOU!!!"
If God capable of forgiving without sacrifice?
If he is, then why demand sacrifice?
If he is not, then how could he be considered all powerful, as there is something he can't do?
Has God given me a mind that isnt able to accept contradictions like this?
If so, how could he fault my mind?
My problems are really this simple.
I don't know how old planet earth is. But yes I take the events of Old Testament literally.
I would not be an Orthodox Christian if I done otherwise, plus it opens new windows of understanding just as I mention some details might slip away if you're taking it as a symbol.
If God capable of forgiving without sacrifice?
In His divine order and wisdom He requires a price for sin - that is death.
God took human flesh and without sinning just assuming the results of sin humbled down and died on a wooden cross. But because he was able to love and forgive everyone and was able to accept the right judgement - He joined the love of the Trinity which did not abandon Him.
Trough this He showed us the way to redemption, we have to follow his earthly life and because He done this as a Human he made it easier for us - He gave us His Divine Spirit - The Holy Spirit to aid us.
There is only one end goal, to exist forever with God, because God is Love since eternity - he fashioned us out of infinite Love not out of boredom. We only exist now because God is love, God is the absolute love shared between three Persons from eternity - there was not a moment when God was an impersonal force, or had a begging - from Eternity God was shared love between Three Divine Persons.
Listen to the verses in this chant we sing this part at the funeral service.
If the price of sin is death, Im already going to die. So why is there Hell? Death is my price.
Let me ask you, do you withhold all forgiveness until the transgressor apologizes? Does this not lead to bitterness in ones heart? Does this not lead to grudges and judgement?
As below, so above.
My point is that of God is truly a perfect being, then why does he put prices on forgiveness?
Why doesn't he merely forgive us 70 times 7 times, turn his own cheek, and lead by example?
Because you can only live with the aid of God.
You can go to Paradise then to Kingdom of Heaven after resurrection if you follow the path Jesus left.
Otherwise you can live outside of God will and end up separated in hell.
>outside an omnipresent God
Does God have limits or not? Quit playing your word games.
I can only come with this idea - even us humble beings made of dirt have systems that we follow and we accept for being optimal paths.
God is an omnipotent Personal being that is capable of anything - in all that infinite wisdom God decided to follow this "system" this route of good - where beings that choose to follow this way are rewarded and kept eternal and beings that decide to not follow it are usually destroyed to avoid causing suffering to creation or to stop the suffering on themselves - except man was not made like that, just like a star fashioned of matter - man is eternal he also has the spiritual part, which God made eternal - hence he won't destroy it no matter what, because this i what eternal means.
God respects your decision to be devoid of his presence.
God is limitless, formless and eternal. What is not possible for us is possible for Him.
I'm not playing with words, you're clearly not genuinely interested in Jesus, in God - in the church - otherwise you would've started to read catechism - you do this just to troll or to annoy people.
You seek parallel philosophical interpretations independent from church and the scriptures that do what?
When God just asks us to stop sinning before He fixes all our problems. Just stop sinning that's all.
If God can impose his own limits and will never break them, how is this omnipotence?
What you are essentially saying here is he could forgive everyone and make it hassle free. People die, meet him, he forgives us, we live with him.
But he doesn't because of his nonsensical code.
>Are you knowing how God thinks in order to give Him suggestions?
Well, why not? Pride gets you nowhere, after all, why should God be an exception?
So why aren't sinners all miscarriages?
They probably do. It's up to God to forgive though. If the Koran is any indication, it is a horrible punishment indeed.
No man's stubbornness can outlast God's patience. Eventually, we all go into his arms.
Belief isn't a choice. I genuinely don't believe, and actively enter discussions as this one in an effort to try to learn something that feels truer.
But the fact is that so far I have been unsuccessful.
The standard explanation is that people become too prideful to be able to turn back. And to be fair, if I was being tortured for every single moment eternally I might also be a little bitter and unable to genuinely feel apologetic towards the one doing it to me.
But there are no limits, God is not dependent on any outside force except Himself, He is the supreme ruler of absolute reality - there is nothing outside of God.
You keep insisting on God limiting himself, but I told you - this concept is only for you in your philosophical mind - in scriptures and in Church there is no limit - nothing God cannot do.
And outside of church, outside of Scriptures and validation of Holy Spirit - all theories are invalid and time consuming.
You're just doing what ancient philosophers used to do, while the Pentateuch was around and pretty easy to get and read they insisted that the universe existed since eternity... it took thousands of years for science to prove that there was a begging.
I believe the Tradition of church, the texts written by holy fathers under the influence of God The Holy Spirit and in the Scriptures - there is the absolute truth, the complete revelation and all you need for your salvation - you won't find anywhere else relevant information.
People communicated with God before, the Israel - but no one assumed God is a Trinity, everyone thought God is a single Person, then God came in human form and reveled to us how things actually are... and there is much much much more hidden, all that we need for our salvation is already there - just practice it and you will reach salvation. From that point you have eternity to become like God.
You can start believing from hearing that's how all we started that's how Jesus told His followers to spread the Faith - " tell people about it ". " tell the good news ".
In 2000 years the church covered all details within the Holy Tradition, various books and catechism - you also have the scriptures translated in pretty much all world languages.
So again, God could remove all doubt. God COULD turn his cheek and forgive us even if were aren't sorry. He COULD show true mercy is letting everyone live with him when they see his truth in the next life or what have you.
But he doesn't. And I ask why? You call it pride. You've called it trolling. But I'm asking why would anyone do this to so many people and call themselves benevolent?
I've read the scriptures. I used to study them. I went to church my whole life, and I started having these questions that no one has the answers for.
It is written that the lukewarm will be spit out. And every unanswerable question lowered my temperature, you understand.
Belief isn't a choice. It's a conviction. And as I stand right now, there is no conviction.
You would do that, you would want some robots to serve you. But God wants absolutely free beings - that are capable of becoming like Him.
And yes, God is already doing all that - God can forgive a sinner just became the Church is begging God.
God is always trying to find reasons and reasons to save souls.
He listens to His children's, stop sinning, learn His will and He will listen to your will.
People get out of hell just because their children received Salvation or people go outside of hell just because of prayers done by humans alive.
+ After second judgement even more will leave hell under the grace of God - Jesus will be more merciful on second judgement and will look away from many sins and cleanse many souls.
That's the purpose of man - to become a small god, to evolve forever towards godhood.
A mere machine programmed to mimic good would not be a being at all.
There is eternal damnation for Satan ans his followers - you cannot take that away. Because if there's not any percent of will to get saved left God cannot do any miracle on that being.
That's just your subjective opinion, I'm sorry for you disliking w/e church books you've read.
Give it a real try this time towards the real Church - which is Orthodox Church.
Go spend some time in a monastery, talk with the monks and try to approach God.
It would be fairly trivial to save Satan by not making him rebellious in the first place.
So a perfect God would devoid of existence a being just because in his free will he will turn away from Him?
In hands of God even the broken Lucifer became a tool for salvation.
What I said doesn't negate free will. If God truly showed himself, and there was no possible way to doubt it, and I still turned away, he could fault me then.
But if I'm not convinced he exists, its my fault?
When he could show himself? When he could forgive me for it after I die and meet him?
That's not negating free will. That's being fair and just.
I've given it a real try and I feel the way you've worded this is disrespectful to the discussion we're trying to have here.
If being away from him is eternal torment, why not?
If you're not convinced He exists and because of that you find reason to sin then it is your fault.
If you're not convinced He exist and live a virtuous life you will not end in hell - because God has the power to cover sins not only forgive them.
But not so many atheists live virtuous lives.
No, instead of making him like X+Y, make him X+Z. Instead of creating a being you know ahead of time is going to rebel against you and be tortured eternally, create a being who is just going to be kind of a surly dick who talks about you behind your back but never actually falls from grace. Free Will is a nice co pout, but it operates within the boundaries of a being's personality and experiences, which are all God-authored.
Because no one is created away from Him, everyone is created close to Him and shares infinite Love and knows the absolute plenary state of being, never stopping in this Love - then that being can choose to leave that state for w/e reason that being considers it's ok to do so.
Then there was no point in the crucifixion if a virtuous life can end in not hell despite lack of belief.
All beings created have a good essence they can only be tempted or think about evil. They're not perfect because only God is perfect - God is always good and never capable of sinning or being tempted.
Creation is good and can stay always good and godlike but can also choose to abandon this state.
See you keep wording it like going to hell is just going to a different room of the house because you are mad at your dad,
But really its more like your dad demands your unwavering praises or he kicks you out into the middle of winter naked
Well before crucifixion even virtuous man went to hell and virtuous people still go to hell but they don't suffer - they just wait there until second judgement when it's up to Jesus what He does with their souls.
You can only enter Paradise if you're reborn from water and Holy Spirit - this requires the Scriptures, laws Jesus gave us and the presence of Holy Spirit, the baptism which is present in the church.
>Creation is good and can stay always good and godlike but can also choose to abandon this state.
What separates those who choose to stay "godlike" and those who choose to sin?
If no evil being can enter heaven what's hard to understand? A sinner will not enter heaven, it's not like eternal joy is eternal joy if someone that' evil intrudes and breaks everyone fun.
Hell is not a created place, hell is just a state of soul.
But let's stop talking about hell, kingdom is close - gates are wide open - you can take it.
Again, if a virtuous but unbelieving life can be "covered" for its sins, there is no point in the crucifixion, as it is not the only way.
I started the thread with pretty much the sole purpose of discussing the ethical issues of hell, if you have nothing else to add that's fine.
I think the question is why are humans punished for having imperfect information?
So if you were born in the jungle of the Amazon and never met anyone from the outside world your entire life, would you still go to hell?
Seems a bit questionable.
>A sinner will not enter heaven, it's not like eternal joy is eternal joy if someone that' evil intrudes and breaks everyone fun.
>Oh man, it's a good thing my beloved cousin who happened to be the wrong type of Christian isn't here, if she wasn't in eternal agony I might be a little sad!
As was stated here>You can only enter Paradise if you're reborn from water and Holy Spirit - this requires the Scriptures, laws Jesus gave us and the presence of Holy Spirit, the baptism which is present in the church.
So yeah, Amazonians are probably out, unless believing in the crucifixion really isn't the only way, as has also been implied
>So if you were born in the jungle of the Amazon and never met anyone from the outside world your entire life, would you still go to hell?
If you as a human knew killing someone is wrong and you still done it yes + there are lots of demons involved there so lots of sin covering is going to happen since demons could even cause people to do atrocities.
You act like there's no voice inside your head, no limit - since fall of Adam there's a "civic" sense, conscience - that's the supreme judgement God will use for non Christians.
Yes Amazonians will wait in hell - without suffering until second Judgement when world will end and rules of the world will end - time will end and we'll wait in eternity for trail - rightous judgement based on every single information, behavior, condition.
Also paradise =/= kingdom of heaven.
Consciences aren't very effective
Some people have abnormal minds and lack empathy
Regular people justify things to themselves all the time.
The big two: Catholics and Orthodox, say that each man will be judged according to his circumstance. If you're a north-sentinelese and have not a snowball's chance of encountering the gospels God will take that into account. If you're, well you and me, the test is much clearer.
Demons exist I've already mentioned that.
Only weapons humans have against demons is cross and name of Christ - in absence of that demons rule and humans are defenseless.
>Some people have abnormal minds and lack empathy
Psychopaths always seemed like a hole in this line of thinking. They literally can't experience empathy and as such have no conscience to speak of, they don't know anything besides shallow self-interest. It seems like God fucked them from the start.
Psychopaths are possessed by demons? Are you saying they just need an exorcism?
So why not eliminate every single record that Christianity ever existed? That way people would be judged for their morality.
If, for example, nobody had ever told me that orthodoxy existed, I would be judged by a different standard than I would be now. So giving out information actually dooms people to a worse hell. That can't be moral.
Do you have any scripture backing that claim up?
Exorcism is a Catholic thing.
You wouldn't trust an user over internet go to your local orthodox church and ask the priests there.
>tfw it's explained as the parasitic strategy in terms of evolutionary game theory.
They might have a different, less scientific approach than the Catholics but Orthodox still believe you can cast out a demon with prayer. Which I think we can agree is exorcism.
Only God can cast demons away your prayers don't work in a mechanical way.
There are prayers written down to beg God for mercy for the demonized but it won't guarantee to cast demon away.
There's no official ritual and is condemned by the church when monks at country side do it on their own and usually end up hurting that person which is in most cases having mental problems and should require medical aid.
Exorcism isn't even unique to christianity m8
>all those chucklefucks who believe in an interventionist god
>all those imbeciles who believe in a god that sets rules
>all those mouthbreathers who believe in a god that is sentient, let alone personal
>all those mongoloids who believe that any church bears the word of god
>all those intellectually-challenged bipedal vertebrates who believe in a god that talks, listens or cares
>all those cretins who believe there is a design for human existence
Do you guys really need imaginary friends to sleep at night, or are you pretending to be retarded for the attention ?
Hell IS death, in the conventional sense. Those who are saved never die, they merely pass away.
This is an incredibly unsophisticated answer.
Its implying that the people in the heads of state and government don't believe in their religion. This is probably true in a few cases, but not the vast majority
>implying that the people in the heads of state and government don't believe in their religion
Yes. That sounds about right.
Religion is nothing but a political power.
how is your tulpa doing ?
>But if I'm not convinced he exists, its my fault?
Not him but the best answer is IDK.
We don't know the fullness of how God judges, just that he is merciful and just.
Seek him out, even if you feel like he may not be there. Even if you never feel like you find him, that inquiry and searching is better than full rejection and mockery.
because the christian god is a jealous, petty asshole.
>the Power of Christ compells you
And have you ever spoken to an exorcist? They actually try to see if it's not demons before actually performing the rite. Because if it isn't demons, it shouldn't be treated like it is.
Personally I don't understand how you start with "a higher power created the universe" and end with "an all powerful, all knowing and all loving god created everything, created an afterlife, created an entire cosmic bureaucracy we never see that he shouldn't even need because he's all powerful
It doesn't follow and I don't understand.
And christcucks are apparently made in his imagine
The original sin concept just proves what a child that god is. It's like the most horrible example of parenting through your human history. The punishment is absolutely ridiculous.
I have also wondered this as well. What about all the people who lived before god finally decided to let everyone know about him. Are they all fucked because whoops, god forgot to check his calendar?
>Why does God command us to turn the other cheek but never seems to take transgressions against himself so lightly?
because the rules were made by bronze age sheepherders who didnt and probably couldnt think everything through like we can
that's because you have never been tortured yet.
Torture makes you lose any pride or human dignity you might have had rather quickly
Heaven and Hell are the same place and you're there right now.
Only after Leviticus is the Old Testament factual. Genesis is a complete myth along with Exodus.
In what way do you think this is a cogent reply? You're just removing the foundation of your own religion.
That's what I'm saying. If you're being tortured you're probably going to be in an altered state where you say, do, or believe anything your torturer tells you. But God seems like the kind of guy who would say "you don't REALLY really mean that, you're just saying that" while continuing to torture you.
>Be humble, pride gets you nowhere.
Ironic comin from the mouth of someone who believes that entire universe was created for him and that the creator specifically cares about your feelings or what you eat and how you eat it.
you fucking passive aggressive little piece of shit
"oh i'm so sorry you don't like the church books you've read, that's your opinion though"
the fucking nerve to say something so stuck up and up your own holier-than-thou ass
the guy said that he wasn't receiving the answers that he needed from scripture and the clergy he spoke to, and your response is basically:
>sorry you're such a stupid shitty pleb
but worded nicely
eat a dick
"Publicly I believe in all the Gods. Privately, I believe in none of them."
- Spartacus, 1960
So you claim your god has poor objective reasoning skills?
I'm sure they did, but I'm also sure a lot of these government leaders and the creators of these religions themselves looked at them more from an objective standpoint than as the truth. How will this religion benefit my kingdom/country/empire? How will this religion benefit me?
if Hell (as in the fiery pit where people are tortured for all time) actually exists then bear this in mind
it means that God tortures people who he supposedly loves for all eternity
thats extremely messed up to put it mildly
What a load of convoluted bullshit this is. If God existed, and wasn't a man made concept, then understanding would be simple. Since understanding God involves all this jumping through hoops I'm inclined to believe that it's just an idea that was developed thousands of years ago in a desert by people who didn't quite think the implications though.
Anyone who claims to have knowledge of not only God's existence but of his motives for doing things is speaking out of their ass. Assuming God exists, any 'answer' you get in this thread will probably be wrong.
>it's another Christcuck thread