St Paul

I've heard a claim that Paul didn't claim Jesus was God and was just trying to preach the Noahide Laws. Jews don't think that everyone has to follow their laws (unless they convert), just 7 Noahide Laws that supposedly were set down in the time of Noah

Basically Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed and others are considered Prophets in Islam, Adam is the first Prophet.

Muhammed is suppose to be the ""Seal of the Prophets", ie, the last one God sends to earth to guide mankind.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_and_messengers_in_Islam

Just confused that they would use the word 'Messiah' when he's not actually the Saviour, just the hypeman. Lots of prophets makes sense, having someone they acknowledge as Messiah be there, only for them to say, "Yeah, we'll wait for the next one," is super weird. Reading around, seems to be they get around that by saying that Jesus is focused on the Jews alone.

Not that user, but I too am confused about something about Jesus's role in Islam, but more specifically, Messianism.

One of the big reasosn you have splits between Judaism and Christianity is that the Christian conception of the Messiah seems to be God incarnating to fix the spiritual ails of the world, whereas the Jews viewed the Messiah as a human warrior-king who would conquer the world, right wrongs, and institute a very earthly notion of paradise.

As far as I know, Muslims claim that Jesus was the "messiah", but what exactly does that mean?

>James and Peter (who had actually spoken with Jesus).

But OP Paul also spoke with Jesus.

lol, no he had visions which were probably just an altered state of mind

First user you asked misspoke. Christ is not "The Messiah" in Islam, just a very important prophet.

For what it's worth, Muslims believe that it'll be Jesus who comes back during the apocalypse, not Muhammad, so as far as prophets go Jesus at least seems to more preeminent role in Islam (behind Muhammad of course.)

Whether that qualifies him as "the Messiah" or not IDK.

Moshiach (the Hebrew word Messiah comes from, which is XRISTOS in Greek - Christ in English) means "anointed one." It doesn't mean "died on a cross for the forgiveness of sins" - whether Christ did that or not.

What's up with the Book of Revelation? Most Christians I know don't seem to like talking about it.

That's because no one really knows what the fuck its on about. Some think it's a literal end-times prophecy, others think it's a coded message to christians during roman persecution, and others still think it's allegory for any number of things.

t. Muhammad

He spoke with the resurrected Jesus.

Yeah, this is basically word for word what muslims think about Christianity.

Islam holds that every prophet other than Muhamid has had their words corrupted. Muhammad surpasses Jesus because he was able to correct the mistakes that Jesus's followers made in recording his teachings.

It's actually an ingenious justification for their religion. Christianity is founded on the idea that the Jewish priests corrupted their own religion which gives permission for the torch to be passed on to the new Christian priesthood. Christians cannot fully rebuke the Muslim position without compromising their own origin story. The clause that Muhammid's teachings cannot be corrupted and that no new prophets also prevents people from using the same tactic on themself.

I don't know, if you look at the Jewish scriptures, they also claim that no later prophet can abrogate the laws that Moses gave, given that he was the greatest prophet who spoke to God "Face to face", and the Christians got around that just fine.

I'm sure someone sufficiently inventive could come up with a reason why their new spiritual leader is also right and even Muhammad got it wrong, once they get enough followers anyway.

>The clause that Muhammid's teachings cannot be corrupted and that no new prophets also prevents people from using the same tactic on themself.
This is essentially the same circular reasoning Christians use to say Jesus's words were not corrupted because Jesus words claim to be from God. The Bahai faith applies this same reasoning (the scripture that claims to be inerrant is not, here's a new prophet to clarify everything) to Islam and all Abrahamic monotheism. Muslims can't actually object to this without undercutting their own argument. Muhammed was a clever guy, but apparently not clever enough.

>oh guys I totally talked to messiah who is still alive despite dying
>He said that I'm right about everything and you should all join my church

Paulites confirmed for gullible gentiles

It's a 2nd century book, the claim it was written by John is definitely false.

It's generally understood that it's a coded anti-Roman message. There was a genuine beleif that Nero would come back from the dead and kill Christians.

This is correct. Christians tend to ignore Moses spoke face to face with God, if Moses never saw a trinity that really discredits Christianity.

Essentially early Christianity was marked by a desire to discredit Judaism. The holy day was moved one day forward, Paul claims the Old Testament is the word of angels not God, John is written with the purpose of accusing Jews of oppressing God as a way of wrestling away God from their hands.

There is also no real reason to suspect that Muhammad's word wasn't corrupted: it too contains contradictions and was written long after the events.

>I'm sure someone sufficiently inventive could come up with a reason why their new spiritual leader is also righ

Joseph Smith supposedly spoke to Jesus who directly told him that all translations of all holy texts are corrupted. He than gave Smith the correct version. Honestly it's the same crap that Paul pulled.

The thing about Monothism is that it's inheritatly a moralizing religion. One God means there is no alternative opinions. Whoever is the rightful prophet of God (or the correct interpretation) wields supreme moral authority over all that worship the spook. In contrast Polytheism can allow for an infinitutude of views, since what one God likes another God hates. There is also some sort of meta-divine force like Karma or Tao that while not providing moral absolutes, does provide a basic structure.

All monotheistic faiths are correct and have the correct prophets, provided you take certain assumptions as axioms.

The thing is that when one Monotheistic faith evolves from another they strategically try to discredit the previous movement. Paul claimed the Old Testament was written by Angels while his teachings come from a higher source, meaning he can contradict the Old Testament. Muhammad got whole world's history from Gabriel, he doesn't contradict Paul, he says "real history"

>the claim it was written by John is definitely false.
I thought it was a different John than the gospel writer? Did people really think it was the same John writing those two?

>Christians tend to ignore Moses spoke face to face with God, if Moses never saw a trinity that really discredits Christianity.
Not really. That's like saying God revealing his name as Yahweh discredits him being known earlier as El Shaddai. Obviously the original intent was different but the shoehorning was not explicitly contradicted.

>Did people really think it was the same John writing those two?
Yep.

>I thought it was a different John than the gospel writer
John isn't even written by 1 person. It was written in stages. Also given the date of when the earliest parts are from it's extremly unlikely the John of Jesus's desciple. John's earliest dates are 90CE. Jesus was born around 4-6 BCE. The idea that John didn't bother writing anything till he was a 96 year old man is absurd.

I seem to recall a quote from John that says no one had seen the face of God.

The idea that someone with Jewish upbringing would not remember the spirtual journey of his religion's most celebrated prophet is absurd. John was most likely written by gentiles.

>Are there any records of James and Peter disputing Paul over the nature of Jesus Christ?
Somewhat. If you read between the lines in the epistles you can tell Paul got BTFO at least once. Basically: confrontation going to happen - then we never hear the end result.

But no direct records. Quite possibly because Paul was BTFO but Pauline doctrine won so the records were destroyed. There was a lot of destruction of anything non "orthodox" in the early church.

Moses doesn't see God's face. He sees his backside.
>But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live...you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."
Exodus 33:20-23

>Moses saw God's butt
Yahweh is a tease.

John's Gospel doesn't specify face of behind. It just says no one has seen him at all.

That is shirk dude , you are going to hell

>messiah who is still alive despite dying

yep

All we have to go by this is the Book of Acts (which was written long after Paul had died and contains a lot of fanfic) and perhaps Paul himself. He's like Joseph Smith reading off the Magic Tablets.

OP get it.
I remember when I came to this conclusion myself. I feel the worst for James, Jesus's brother. He must have loved Jesus and knew him best, only to be underhanded by lying Paul, a guy who was obviously just looking for power and control of gentiles.

James was called James the Just by everyone, including the Romans. Apparently he was the closest thing to Christ because he WAS closest to Christ.

XPISTOS

Adam, Moses, Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed are all "prophets." All are just divinely anointed but otherwise ordinary men. Mohammed is special because he is supposed to be the very last.

And this is why the Heebs will never enter the Heavenly Kingdom, for God has blinded you with your own pride. You can't even read the words of your prophets, who all spoke of Jesus.

Hey, OP, I'm the one who originally wrote what you posted.

So, thanks for copy-pasting, I suppose. Will my anti-Christcuck diatribe turn into a meme?

Enjoy hellfire, atheistcuck.

>literally defending/whiteknighting a fictional character

As cancerous as waifu-fags.

>Be Saul
>Be born to Gentile parents
>Start getting homosexual urges, really want it stop
>Go to temple of Attis every day to get my life on track
>Going to school and learning about Plato and his crazy Forms, got my degree in Gnostism
>Unable to contain my raging homo-lust for Attis and his sweaty body
>Feel tremendous guilt from my fag-hating parents
>Think I'm turned gay by a male succubus
>Idolize the Pharisee for their sexual purity. Figure if I join them I can stop masterbating so much
>Wanna be a Rabi but don't even know Hebrew!
>Go to them and say I want to join their club
>They tell me it's "Jews only"
>WTF, these guys don't even know you gotta eat God to be God.
>They kick me out of their temple
>Childhood dream of being a Rabbi crushed. Still feel like shit for being a fag
>Appearently my Gnostism degree is worthless so I have to make tents for a living. Fucking liberal arts!
>Leave town. Realize that if I start preaching to the Gentiles I can pretend to be a rabbi!
>Hear about this new Jewish prophet called Jesus, don't know much but fill in the blank with stuff about Attis and Hellenic philosophy
>Things are going great, started own religion, life starts picking up
>Tell everyone no homo!
>Huh you can't eat pork? That's a stupid rule.
>Read Greek translations to learn about Jesus and his Jew religion.
>This is nothing like my Hellenstic theology? Where's all the Forms? Where's the dying and rising Gods? They must have made some mistakes.
>Well maybe I can combine the two togeather! That liberal arts degree is coming in handy. Add in some special rituals to spice it up!
>Asshole named James shows up and claims he's the real leader of the followers of Jesus
>Don't wanna get rejected again so I go to him and decide to show off my education
>"I'm a real apostle too! Jesus gave me the secret Gnosis he didn't tell you guys"
>They make fun of me and my Forms
>Go home crying
>Masterbate to Attis
>Feel guilty afterwords

Being Paul is suffering

I'm not catholic, so that image does nothing to me.

Keep trying.

Fuck off Muslim/Arian scum, I'm sick of people shitting on Paul.

He's right though. In the bible there is not a single book which is not written anomalously 20-50 years after Paul or written by Paul and the people that personally knew Jesus accused him of being a liar. Paul's backstory is confirmed as a lie, but he does show a great knowledge of Hellenistic, Gnostic, and Mystery cult knowledge.

The only thing in the OP that is even remotly contestable is Paul's homosexuality which isn't very unlikely. The man admitted to never sleeping with women and being overcome with a forbidden lust.

If he was truly Hellene it's almost confirmed he got some boipussy

Let us see some proofs. Post links to credible sources (not Jewish nor Muslim) or at least chapters and verses that mention Paul being accused by "the people that personally knew Jesus".

>Paul preached a number of doctrines that were considered disgusting and pagan by James and Peter (who had actually spoken with Jesus).
So you're buttblasted because you wanted some 100% Jewish-as-fuck religion instead?

Cultural Catholic here.

I just look at all of scripture as one big parable desu senpai. Except for literal historical instances.

Have you been so brainwashed by the Paulian tradition that when the people that the one's that actually were there you call them liars?

James spent his entire life with Jesus, from birth to death, he was respected by virtually everyone that knew Jesus and even the Pagan authors acknowledge his role (he is the only person other than Jesus they ever wrote about). Literally hundreds of people would have vouched he knew Jesus, including Christ's own mother! You dennounce him for uploading the very religion your Jesus taught (which was completly Jewish)

Than a new guy comes up who's only credentials is his own testimony, a guy who gave nothing but lies about his background, claims to have "secret Gnosis", and is denounced as a deceiver by everyone that knew Christ....and you accept everything he says unconditionally!

LOL

Then why are Paul's books in the Bible?
Why are they canon?

Infact, Paul's epistles are the most important after the Gospels, essential for doctrine and understanding the Christian lifestyle.

I don't understand where all this Paul hate comes from.

They call Jesus the messiah, but by that, they only mean that He was a leader of the Jews. Not the Anointed One.

not him, but the evidence anything other than the Pauline tradition is scant and at most you can say is that there were was a guy named James that was leading a christian sect that followed the law. we can't even be sure he is Jesus's brother. Paul's mention of him as the brother of the Lord could be meant in the same sense that he mentions other brothers of the Lord: as simply followers of Christ. the mention of James as the brother of Jesus in Josephus is dubious at best. the only supposed writing we have of James, the epistle in the NT, doesn't show any personal knowledge about Jesus. the only thing you have is the assumption that the Essenes were the "correct" sect

"leader"

It's a slap in the face to both Jews and Christians.

Paul spent time with Jesus after Jesus rose from the dead, and wrote about it, many times.

Maybe read the bible.

What do you want to know? It starts with John the beloved apostle being taken into the third heaven, where God and the angels live. Jesus gives John 7 letters for 7 churches in Asia Minor. These churches existed; however, they are also the 7 types of churches, and depict the changing ages of the church by which is dominant.

After that, it goes to "things that will be", i.e. prophecy. It is very specific, very well ordered and organized, and predicted things like a country with the Chinese military colors fielding a 200,000,000 man army.

It is called the Revelation of Jesus Christ as it depicts Jesus coming down from heaven in the clouds, in glory, to rule the world for a thousand years.

Wrong about literally everything.

>Then why are Paul's books in the Bible?
>Why are they canon?
His writings were first collected by Marcion, a known Gnostic. These letters are the only parts of the bible that we actually know the name of the author for (the so called Gospels were anonymously written). All the real followers of Jesus focused entirly on the Jewish people. Paul's message spread to Gentiles, most of them who had no clue about the Old Testament and were more comfortable with Hellenistic ideas. Paul being the only Hellenisized/Gnostic "Christian" was their favorite. Most of them wouldn't even be able to read the language of the actual followers of Jesus.

In other words Paul had a monopoly. After a few years of this it came to be that any writings which did not fall in line with Paul were declared heresy. The Christian writers even freely admit that there were other versions of the Gospels (which they destroyed) written by those in the communities Jesus actually preached in. Closness to Paul, not Closeness to Christ was the number one priority for deciding what was cannon.

>Infact, Paul's epistles are the most important after the Gospels, essential for doctrine and understanding the Christian lifestyle.

No shit. Any writing that didn't fit his style was declared heresy. He was founder of the religion so of course everything matches up with him.

>I don't understand where all this Paul hate comes from.
Analyzing history and arriving at conclusions you personally dislike is not "hate".

Same John wrote the Gospel according to John, John 1, 2, and 3, and the Revelation. The apostle.

Just fucking wrong about everything.

More absolute fucking bullshit.

Holy shit another one that's absolutely fucking wrong.

Wrong.

Fucking wrong.

What is this plague?

Adam is not a prophet, Mohammad is definitely not a prophet, and Jesus is God.

Paul was sure as hell not Gnostic.

Dunno where you got that from. Paul himself states that he was raised a Jew and prior to his dramatic conversion, he claimed to be the most Jewish Jew that ever Jewed.

Again, do you have evidence that he was a Hellenized Jew at least apart from his birth in a Roman territory.

Am actuallyy curious here.

100% bullshit.

>Marcion, a known Gnostic

Hold the fuck up.

The only sources we have on Marcion are Catholic ones.

Catholics view Marcion as an enemy/heretic, so they could've lied about him.

Catholics also murdered Waldensians and Albigensians, which were basically proto-protestants (believed in scripture alone).

Bible-believing Christians were often confused with being dualists/gnostics because Catholics didn't understand their position.

I would take the idea that Marcion was a gnostic, with a grain of salt.

Do you want to present an actual arguement or just close your ears and scream?

What these annons are saying is generally accepted history and biblical analysis.

No, he's fucking wrong, and you're fucking wrong.

Or at least a third to fourth generation disciple.

James never believed Jesus was the Messiah until after the resurrection.

Bunch of fucking liars is where it's coming from.

Holy shit you can't just make up this many shit tier lies and think anyone believes you.

>I don't understand where all this Paul hate comes from.

It comes from either fags and feminists who don't like that paul makes rules against them, or it comes from jewish anti-missionary groups who don't like stuff like "messianic judaism" taking root in israel.

t. Isaac Ben Abrahamsberg

I want to rip the living shit out of each and every one of these unsourced contrarian bullshit Jewish/Gnostic lies, yes.

I am very out of touch with Bible scholarship, so I must ask for sources.

The apostle whom Jesus loved wrote them all. John, a son of thunder.

>What these annons are saying is generally accepted history and biblical analysis.

In the Church of Satan.

None of their bullshit is in the bible. Not one single word of it.

>The Jerusalem Church of Peter and James was destroyed and scattered due to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, leaving Paul in Asia Minor free to spread his cult.

Paul was killed years before this.

EVERYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT PAUL IS A LIE.

God promised to preserve His word.

So OP by saying that Paul was just like Mohammed/Joseph Smith (a false prophet), you're saying that God lied because the Bible contains false books.

>The holy day was moved one day forward
Because Jesus rose one day after. That has nothing to do with "discrediting."

Marcion created the first "bible" he removed all Old Testament sources from the cannon because for him that represented the tradition of an evil, lesser God.

>Dunno where you got that from. Paul himself states that he was raised a Jew and prior to his dramatic conversion, he claimed to be the most Jewish Jew that ever Jewed.

Yet he fails basic Jewish theology. He mixes up Saudeecee and Pharisee idea. This is 1st centuary Jewery 101 and he fails it. Most likely he never knew a word of Hebrew and based his understanding off Greek translated copies of the bible, which real Jews at the time didn't use because they were poor translations.

It's generally understood Paul's entire backstory is a fabrication designed to make him look good.

Paul's terminology is loaded with Hellenistic type language.

>Paul was sure as hell not Gnostic.
Marcion, a known Gnostic, was the first to compile and destribute Paul's letters. Paul was so popular with the Gnostics that Valentinus declared him "the greatest apostle". Rather than being perceived as an opponent the Gnostics embraced him! Paul's writings are filled references to "mysteries" and "revealed wisdom". His writing style also doesn't seem to refer to Jesus as a person but some sort of astral figure who has a presence in the initiated. In fact Paul's claim to have special Gnosis the other Apostle's didn't was used to legitmize Gnostic teachers.

He's also saying Paul is contrary to the rest of the disciples.

Galatians 2:9
and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

2 Peter 3
and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

PROVE ANY OF THIS, YE VIPER.

There is one character, however, which was undoubtedly one of the devil’s own agents: the heretic Marcion, who lived in the second half of the Second Century. Marcion taught that the entire Old Testament should be rejected because it belonged to an evil, inferior God, and not to the God revealed by Jesus of Nazareth.

"Irenaeus writes in Against Heresies (1.17.2 ), “Besides this, he [Marcion] mutilates the Gospel which is according to Luke, removing all that is written respecting the generation of the Lord, and setting aside a great deal of the teaching of the Lord, in which the Lord is recorded as most clearly confessing that the Maker of this universe is His Father.

GREAT SOURCE

DAILY REMINDER TO NEVER LISTEN TO JEALOUS JEWS TALK ABOUT PAUL AND JESUS

Hm. Interesting.

Again, could you link me to sites or recomend me books related to this? It's either this or searching JSTOR for this.

Aww Christians, vile hateful wurms that scream "Satan" or "Jew" at the first sign of having their feelings hurt.

A basic wikipedia check will confirm that all 4 Gospels are considered to be written at the dates I mentioned and their authorship is considered unknown. None of this is in dispute anymore than the Holocaust (aka only paranoid retards think it never happened).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel#Dating

EP Sanders and Meiers should cover the more detailed stuff. If you want a quick intro watch or read Erman's "How Jesus became God"

The evidence is in your fucking Bible, idiot. It's called the Incident at Antioch.

This thread is literally started by a viper in the Synagogue of Satan.

It's complete and utter bullshit, from reliance on gnostics to heretics to just flat lies.

A quick reality check will tell anyone reasonable that wiki is not a reliable source for the things of the bible.

And Bart Ehrman is a heretic going to hell. His work has been refuted by everyone who knows him. He is a book writing whore. Follow him. Please.