Medieval France

France was the most populated country in Europe at the time, they represented about 25% of the European population;

>France was the most populated country in Europe at the time, they represented about 25% of the European population;

dumbest shit ive read all day

I'm fairly certain the HRE had more castles (if you count it as a single entity). When it comes to tournaments, the court of Burgundy was most influential during the High Middle Ages, however, approaching the late middle ages South German and Italian courts became more important (possibly because that's where all the plate armour came from which made it easily accessible) most notably the court of Emperor Maximilian I.

It's not simply about the power of the capetian dynasty, that became stronger than almost every rukling family in the HRE, but about France in genral. The french lords were quite clearly among the strongest in all Europe, which explain the early successes of the crusades. France was also culturally on top (troubadours,chivalry, Paris university, courtly love, gothic architecture)

This map is stupidly oversimplified though.
And nation =/= nation state

Okay.

>most populated kingdom in Europe

True but the HRE was even more fractured, so culturally they couldn't unify the hearts and minds of each squabbling hillside village.

>muh HRE

When will they learn?
If it was so strong, why did France continually conquered HRE lands over centuries?

>France was historically the largest nation of Europe. During the Middle Ages more than one quarter of Europe's population was French; during the 17th century it was still one fifth.

Probably because the HRE was not unified enough but a collection of mostly sovereign principalities with their own agendas.

Medieval France was obviously shit because it gave rise to modern France which is only good at surrendering.

>no reference for this statistic
>only appears on wikipedia
>no reference on the wikipedia page

Opinion discarded

They were pretty good at surrendering even back then Tbh

>t. French colony

Yeah, but it was to other Frenchmen (like Henry V de Plantagenet) so...

>normans
>french

Didn't they speak Langua Franca in the courts?

>henry v
>french

are u kidding? After hundreds of years of ruling from england, they ceased to be french a long time prior to henry v

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography#Demographic_tables

>Angevins
>Normans

Pick one

The Plantagenets were not Normans, you idiot.
Always a brit to shit up threads about France.

The king spoke norman french for a while, until around edward i, when english kings began to know both norman french and middle english. Henry V was the first king to speak english as his first language

If it's culture that counts rather than ancestry, explain this guy

>If it was so strong, why did France continually conquered HRE lands over centuries?
Do you have proof? For most of the early middle ages, France was focused on England and HRE was focused on itself.

They finally fought in 1500 when the Holy Roman Emperor personally captured the King of France and put him in a monkey cage.

He still spoke French, considered himself French and lived most of the time in his French territories since he hated the british weather. Read one of his biographies and enjoy "education"

>They finally fought in 1500
No. Battle of Bouvines happened before that. And it was mostly Castille that defeated France during the italian wars.

>norman french

You're trying to hard
"Norman French" was as different from regular French as American English is from British English
And the Angevin Kings (the dynasty that ruled from 1154 to 1485, after the Norman one (1066-1154)) spoke regular French, not "Norman French"

You're confusing with Lionheart

Completely false. Norman french was his second language, he held court/parliament and did all official paperwork in english.

>considered himself French

Absolutely zero evidence of this. The fact that his administration was the first to speak/write 100% in english would say otherwise.

> lived most of the time in his French territories

lol what a retard. He lived exclusively in england until he INVADED france. THEN he spent all his time there until his death trying to subdue the rest of the kingdom and waiting for the old french king to die so that he could be crowned king of france. His only interest in France was claiming the crown which he believed to be his by birthright

Fucking delusional frog

True but this was the HRE getting involved in the Anglo-French conflicts. Also HRE was divided, Otto IV only controlled the north while Frederick II controlled the south and was supported by Philippe Augustus. So both of my statements are true.

Besides this battle, what victories of France over the HRE are there in the middle ages (pre 1500)? I keep hearing about them but cannot find any.

The dude you're replying to confused with Richard, so he's obviously wrong, but

>Norman french

Can you please stop with this buttpained denial?
Henry V was an Angevin king, not a Norman one
His second language was regular Old French

Sure, take a look babby boy.
The rest of your post is trash, you can't even name the battle (of Pavia) and you probably don't even know that at this time the Middle Ages are already over, dumbass.

You have no idea of what you're talking about.

>. The fact that his administration was the first to speak/write 100% in english would say otherwise.

What? The English law has been written in French until the 16th century!
Pathetic ignoramus running his mouth once again

It shows that most German land was stolen during the 17th century
Louis XIV =/= Middle Age

>the Holy Roman Emperor personally captured the King of France and put him in a monkey cage.
The King of France was also captured during the Battle of Poitiers.

What is it with French rulers and their habit of getting themselves captured?

What conflicts are there pertaining to? Just because they lost territory doesn't mean it was by conquest or military victory.

They never fought directly, evn though the capetian did destroy the remnant of the Staufen dynasty in Italy.
The french kingdom did expand on what were german fiefs and gained the upper hand at least diplomatically. (Lyon, Dauphiné, Provence were all part of the HRE)

Exactly, the French-German conflict started with the Thirty Years War.

Getting caught is part of their plan

You do understand that at the beginning, in 985, all the lands east of France were part of the HRE. Provence, Barrois, Savoy, half of Burgundy, etc. That's about 1/3 of the current size of France.

>German lands

lel

>What is it with French rulers and their habit of getting themselves captured?
The french king is supposed to be on the battlefield. It has been this way since the middle ages. Philip II was fighting at Bouvines, all the kings of France did that, even Louis XIV was participating at some sieges.

French Kings are foppish dandies and terrible rulers.
That's why the Ducs were the real powers.

...

>The french kingdom did expand on what were german fiefs and gained the upper hand at least diplomatically.

So the HRE land that the French gained in the middle ages was via diplomacy, not war?

>Can you please stop with this buttpained denial?
>Henry V was an Angevin king, not a Norman one
>His second language was regular Old French

m8, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Henry ii's (first '''''''angevin''''''' king) mother was matilda, who was norman. The whole fucking english aristocracy was norman. Just because Henry ii's fucking father was angevin doesn't mean that the plantagenet kings were angevin. In fact, they were completely norman. Their power base was in normandy, not anjou. They had no ties in anjou, especially after they lost it in the early 13th century. They were completely norman culturally, and there is actually written evidence that they spoke and wrote in norman french, not old french.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language

Link related, all anglo norman kings spoke this language, and this is what i meant by 'norman french'

Dose it really matter?

m8. you're a fucking idiot, just stop trying, pierre.

>What? The English law has been written in French until the 16th century!

No. Law was written in latin and anglo norman, then english by the 15th century. Dumb frog

Are you seriously stupid enough to think that there was a normalized French back then?
Norman is basically a French dialect, it's basically Old French. Stop deluding yourself, the Normans were completely Francisised and had nothing to do with muh vikings nor with the english peasantry they despised. Stop deluding yourself.

Does England get all of its quintessential medieval themes (chivalry, crusades, tournaments) from French culture?

I don't think there were any wars between France and the HRE, though it came close at some point (under Louis VI).

Exactly, there were DIFFERENT DIALECTS, including a NORMAN dialect. Not that hard to understand. Fucking idiot...

Different dialects of FRENCH. Which says a lot about their culture.

>Fucking idiot...

If that makes you sleep at night, britboy

No, you're just full of shit

>Henry ii's (first '''''''angevin''''''' king) mother was matilda, who was norman. The whole fucking english aristocracy was norman. Just because Henry ii's fucking father was angevin doesn't mean that the plantagenet kings were angevin.
Culture was transmitted by the father's side
Matilda left Normandy and went to live in Anjou, where her sons were raised
Henry II was as much of a Norman as Louis XVI's son was Austrian

>Their power base was in normandy, not anjou.
The power base at the time of the Angevin Empire was Anjou, not Normandy
Normandy was a colony, just like England

>especially after they lost it in the early 13th century
They lost Anjou at the same time they lost Normandy, you utter retard

>They were completely norman culturally
Norman culture was almost identical to French one by 1066, let alone two centuries later

>and there is actually written evidence that they spoke and wrote in norman french, not old french.
No there are none
Stop making up shit

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language
A term invented by butthurt British historians in a vain attempt to deny their French heritage
The article itself defines it as an "Oil language", which is basically Old French and all its dialects

Pretty much. The other European countries too though.

Which is why i said NORMAN FRENCH
>NORMAN
>FRENCH

Say it with me
>NORMAN
>FRENCH

Not the same thing, pierre. In fact, there were significant differences between dialects. Regardless, by the reign of Henry V, the whole upper class and king spoke middle english

Yeah. That's the peculiar thing that i was wondering about. Why did essentially all of medieval culture radiate from france?

Reminder that the Plantagenet kings spoke "Gallo-Angevin French" and not "Norman French"

Do these themes come from the Frankish Empire? How come Germany didn't have more of these themes then?

Actually, normand, retard

Getting irritated, boy?

You have to understand something.

NORMAN = FRENCH

Basically, once you get that inside your brain you'll finally acknowledge your status of French colony and stop being so butthurt whenever the word "France" comes up.

Germany had them too of course. They were come up with in France however.

>HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER ANGLOS ARE -STILL- ASSBLASTED TO HELL ABOUT FRANCE

Nope
The Norman kings (1066-1154) spoken Norman French
The Angevin kings (1154-1485) spoke Angevin French

>french autism

>The Angevin kings (1154-1485) spoke Angevin French

low quality bait. As i already explained, the whole english upper class was already norman, and henry ii's mother was norman. He was raised as a norman and spoke norman french. He had to speak norman french, because the english upper class was completely norman to begin with

>french

Why not use the synonym, "anglo-norman"?

France was massively influenced by Italy during the 16th century though.
Well "french soldiers" radiated from france to italy but well...

>He was raised as a norman

He wasnt
See For some weird reason you seem to think he grew up in Normandy or England, but he really grew up in Anjou, with his Angevin father and among Angevin nobles

Do you know what regions in France the archetype medieval culture originates from?

Really, tell me how he would've managed as king of england, surrounded by english nobles who only spoke norman french, if he spoke angevin french. It would've been impossible

It depends on what you're looking for. In regards to the chivalric tournament for example the court of Burgundy was most influential.

It depends. Gothic architecture started in the north of France. Troubadours are from the south though. So it depends what you're looking for.

The regions of Ile de France and the surroundings: Normandy, Anjou, Burgundy...

Yeah
I sure wonder how Brits manage to study in America without speaking American English

Their ancestors would be proud.

Both dialects are perfectly understandable by each parts.

>court of Burgundy

Actually burgundy as an independent entity wasn't really relevant until the late middle ages. For most of the middle ages, and when chivalry was in its heyday, burgundy wasnt noteworthy

>The Angevin kings (1154-1485) spoke Angevin French

Nonono, Henry II most likely, Richard spoke mostly Occitan due his connection to Aquitaine and John I can't speak for sure.

Henry III onwards were more "domestically" and more in touch with their underlings speaking Norman French or """"""English"""""".

Chivalry/knighthood and gothic architecture are what most came to mind.

It's a bit sad Veeky Forums is mostly talking about the anglo-french wars in the middle ages with a nationalist perspective. Those wars weren't between nations, but between individuals. And seriously, the 100 years war is really interesting. You have so many fascinating figures during that period, you're waisting your time trying to figure who won, if the normans were french etc.

>Richard spoke mostly Occitan due his connection to Aquitaine

His spoke both Occitan and Old French (which was his native language)

>Those wars weren't between nations, but between individuals.

French individuals I may add
Regardless of how English the conscript peasants they used were

Actually it would be more like a guy born in america, who's family has lived in america for hundreds of years, who still doesn't speak the same type of english as the locals. Also, this is a false equivalence because there were more difference between norman french and angevin french than between american and british english. Fucking retard

>as an independent entity

Burgundy only became dependant in 1434 with the treaty of Arras, they obtained it by siding with the England against the French crown during the 100 years war. In 1477, the Duchy was divided between Habsburgs (as HRE emperors) and Louis XI, the French king after the death of Charles the Bold in Nancy. That's just 33 years.

>anglo-french wars

Let me correct you: French dynastic wars. That's what it is.
For the rest, you're right.

Is Veeky Forums the board with the most Frogs in all Veeky Forums?

I recall the /int/ poll people mostly being Amerifats and Anglos.

>Those wars weren't between nations

It was actually the beginning of wars between nations. There is a clear distinction between the 100 years wars and the earlier feudal war. Big difference

Veeky Forums is about history, if you have some knowledge and intellectual honesty you get pretty irritated with the french surrender monkey meme. I say that as a Swiss.

>Also, this is a false equivalence because there were more difference between norman french and angevin french than between american and british english.

That's false though
Literally just a bunch of different spellings and a few varying idioms - Just like with American and British English

What the hell did you think "Norman French" was? A whole different language?

>It was actually the beginning of wars between nations

Absolutely.
French and English nationalism were born in the 100 years wars. This explains why we like to tickle each others testicles so much.