Holocaust Denial

If you are accusing me of being a jew then your accusations would be correct.

Because there's no accurate way to tell just what the numbers really were. There's no specific documentations of how many died, and then no way to know how truthful the recorders were, and there's also no way to know how much of the population decrease in European jews was a result of the genocide, the war, or mass emigration. You can make a fairly wide estimate to the numbers and that's about it. Between those points you can inflate or deflate it as much as you want to fit your agenda and no one can really contest you.

such a surprise

to jews whether people were gassed or shot or died of diseases or bomb drops, whether 800k died or 2mln or 6mln, whether "witnesses" tell the truth or are too traumatised to tell the truth or straight up lie

is of no fucking difference - because you profit from it anyway

If what is presented is not true as stated then it should be denied or revised.

I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be.

Regardless of specific accusations, the idea that 60+ years of modern extensive scholarship can be disproven or hand-woven by something akin to a diligent google search is a gross misconception of what academic work is.

>is of no fucking difference - because you profit from it anyway
Just like contemporary antisemites draw political benefit from negationism. What's your point?

academia happens to be politically motivated ever since the Ancient Greek era

it's really not that much of a stretch to say that there were innumerous scientists whose claims were ignored or even penalised because they didn't fit the political narrative

Here's a fun game: find a random historical event. Then, devote a large portion of your time to finding 'evidence' that it didn't happen. Eventually, you will find some. From that point, you can either continue believing that said event never happened, or you can recognize that there is no real way to verify that something happened.

How long?

my point is to seek the objective truth behind the actual numbers, methods and people responsible for the Holocaust

1945 was a difficult year for the whole world and I can safely assume that some judgements were passed ad hoc

Right because all I really want is to use the holocaust to my advantage because all I care about is how I can use statistics and the suffering of others for my own self benefit like the dirty jew I am. Because its all part of some big conspiracy and I am in on it, right? All because I was born a fucking jew.

Fuck OFF I am so sick of seeing shit like this here

Now, if the Holocaust was so true and the Nazis were the bad guys, why do they have to lie?

Academic sources on WW2 span across three continents, dozens of countries and countless universities and scholars (who come from as diverse ideological viewpoints as possible). Not to mention many of those scholars not being Jewish - the most prominent living Holocaust scholar in modern Germany is of Turkish descent. Arguing that such a huge agglomeration of resources takes part in a something like an organized cover-up requires genuine clinical paranoia.

stop victimising yourself and think in terms of intellectual truthfulness

Nah, mate, not you.

The common jew has nothing to do with it, its the jewish "overlords" that are fucking everything up.

Although all jews are all inherently evil.

Regardless, accusations of political benefit can go both ways. Isn't the Government of Iran the single biggest supporter of holocaust revisionism currently? Do you think the Islamic Republic worries about uncovering objective truth and intellectual responsibility?

Here's a really good site examining Holocaust Denial

hdot.org

I haven't mentioned anything akin to "organised cover-up" even once, only said that academia is politically motivated - it's generally better for your career not to touch well-established "truths", even for clarification

trying to make me look mad or what?

So you call me out for being a jew and when I try to defend myself I am "victimising myself"? I really can't win, can I.

This isn't even good bait

And as I pointed out, the motivations of those scholars are as diverse as possible. If 60+ years of extensive research, in dozens of universities, from California to Moscow can be refuted under pretense of "political motivation" it means academia (and possibly the methodological study history in general) as such is largely worthless.

Bait? No.

various political parties profiteer on various political narrations, academia should be above it - it probably won't, as it's largely state-funded in most cases

you react emotionally desu
it's hard to examine something pertaining to your own people (I'm an example myself)

think in term of trends - to think of world-wide schemes plotted by some Nibiru-tier superjews is just childish

Holodomor was much worse.

>various political parties profiteer on various political narrations, academia should be above it - it probably won't, as it's largely state-funded in most cases
And holocaust revisionism isn't above it.

>think in term of trends - to think of world-wide schemes plotted by some Nibiru-tier superjews is just childish
Ok, and?

I remember there was a thread on this board a while ago devoted to evidence that it happened. Then /pol/ got mad and invaded it.

well it isn't indeed

to use the word "revisionism" pejoratively is a fallacy though

societal stigmatisation works in the same way, modern academia is even more difficult to change in any aspect as it's almost fully globalised at this point

Yeah, I can agree with this. I'm not so charged when it comes to this topic. I regularly post here and nothing has got me more responses in such a fast time to all the people raging away in this thread.

Hmm...

>there's been an open, honest and objective analysis of the subject of the holocaust
>holocaust denial laws exist
pick one, I'm not even on their side but this is such an obviously terrible argument, it's like criticizing a pro-democracy group in China for not winning elections.

OH NO THE LE GOYIM FOUND OUT ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST LIE (MORE LIKE HOLOHOAX RIGHT?!?! EHEHE)

I HOPE THEY DON'T FIND OUT ABOUT MY PLAN TO USE ANIME TO PROMOTE RACE MIXING!

OH NO! I SAID THAT OUT LOUD!

It doesn't matter what the specific mechanism is. If hundreds or thousands of scholars and students of history in extremely diverse contexts can come up with similar - and false - results, it means academic production as such is worthless.

Replace "holocaust' with "Cuban missile crisis". If I told you that the vast majority of scholarship around that event is demonstrably false on some very basic points, as it was motivated by all sort of alien considerations which contaminated its objectivity, what would it say about the value of academic work?

I was in Auschwitz and in some smaller camps. It can't be some elaborate scheme by the Jews.

Read Hitler's actual writings, read nazi reports. Jews were systematically abused for slavery and or killed.

The numbers might be wrong, but considering the magnitude (the size of the camps), the rhetoric of Hitler, crystalnacht and everything leading up to it, the ghettos and things that are well documented, it is completely unreasonable, but I'd say delusional, to believe that /the holocaust never happened/.

The numbers are likely not 100% correct, but prominent historians (they're not all Jews or under their spells, you know) would acknowledge it if they were off by much

> If hundreds or thousands of scholars and students of history in extremely diverse contexts can come up with similar - and false - results, it means academic production as such is worthless.
No just flawed, are you really going to claim that no academics have ever gotten anything wrong, ever? That the academic concensus hs always been correct? Also when are you going to address this , it's the gigiantic elephant in the room that dominates this entire topic, how in the hell can you act like holocaust research is some impartial objective field of research and not politicized as all hell when there are fucking laws that govern what positions you may or may not hold on it publicly in dozens of countries. Don't you think that maybe introduces a little bit of bias into the process?

>To date, no Holocaust accuser has provided an explanation for the lack of a six million decline in Jewish numbers?
nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/worldalmanac.html
>No legally valid transcript or protocol of the Official order exists?
hdot.org/en/learning/myth-fact/hitlerorder.html
>Supposed Process of Extermination?
hdot.org/en/learning/myth-fact/holes1.html
hdot.org/en/learning/myth-fact/holes2.html
>Supposed Process of Body Disposal?
hdot.org/en/learning/myth-fact/cremation1.html
hdot.org/en/learning/myth-fact/cremation5.html
>Admissions of Guilt?
hdot.org/en/learning/myth-fact/gerstein5.html

I actually agree that anti-free speech laws are stupid and largely useless, but they're not able to influence academic production that much. France passed explicit anti-revisionism laws in 1990 and ever since this type of scholarship only grew in size and appeal. Also the biggest producer country of academic knowledge about the issue by net number is the US, which has the First Amendment.

The US is also not the location of the actual material to study to produce worthwhile analysis.

>but they're not able to influence academic production that much
I find this very hard to believe, having to worry about criminal charges for holding the wrong position is not conducive to good scholarship.

>Also the biggest producer country of academic knowledge about the issue by net number is the US, which has the First Amendment.
This is an excellent point but you really need to stop pretending that there isn't anything fishy about this field of research, that's it's just like any other because it obvioulsy isn't. The government won't punish you for defending the atrocities of Stalin or Mao will they? You don't get sent to prison for arguing that the native americans were mostly killed by disease and not the deliberate actions of colonists. I think this is the real root of a lot of modern holocaust denial, not anti-semitism, people aren't stupid and they can see the discrepancy.

I'm not even saying the academic consensus is right. All I'm saying is that you can't have revisionism while still adhering to academic standards. You can't have modern historiography without consensus, and you can't have consensus with fundamental revisionism.

So? Are you claiming you can't study Ashurbanipal's reign because all the physical stuff is in Syria and Syria doesn't have free speech?

>All I'm saying is that you can't have revisionism while still adhering to academic standards.
Isn't academia meant to be all about questioning existing theories and trying to improve on them (ie revise them)? Revisionism and denialism are just meaningless politically-charged buzzword that mean nothing and are a complete rejection of actual scholarship, you shouldn't get attacked for not accepting the consensus.

Do the Syrian government really care all that much about what you say about Ashurbanipal though? Please stop making such ridiculous comparisons, it's not helping your case.

Take the example of France, which is leading in the publication of revisionist material (there is even a bookstore in Paris dedicated to this stuff) and has passed Gayssot Law in 1990 which explicitly prohibits revisionism. Western countries, in general, aren't very quick to persecute speech offenses for obvious reasons; I don't think there have been more than a dozen of cases overall which deal with Holocaust revisionism. I agree those laws are stupid as well as counterproductive, but they're not that effective.

>So what's the deal with Holocaust denial?

On Veeky Forums? Satirical memes and deliberately contrarian 14 year olds.

History, differently from hard sciences, doesn't have any method of observations that is independent of the academic consensus. It's not like you can look at a microscope and completely transform the assumptions of the field. By claiming that the consensus got some fundamental facts wrong revisionist discredit the entire field. Again, it's fine if you're some kind of anti-academic, but the stakes need to be clear.

Do you think the Polish and Ukrainian governments care that much about it? And if they are, do you think they're in a position to influence the work of academics in Columbia University?

/pol/ BTFO

The ultimate stormfaggot cowardly cop-out

user: GAS THE KITES! RACE WAR NOW! SMASH ZOG!!! REEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Anons friend/pretty girl/doctor saving mothers life: But... but I'm a Jewish user.
user: Oh, well, of course not ALL Jews obviously...

And they want to kill all jews while at the same time denying the holocaust or at least massively minimize the results

It was real in my mind.

Because Hitler a good boy an dindu nuffin

>.org

good goy

Does this mean you're a jew?

All things aside.

Stuff like this

youtu.be/WJ_NRNFj22M

And this

youtu.be/-Ju1w-iDR0o

The above is quite amusing when you see this.

youtu.be/nbw2OdHY0Gs

The amount of vitriol is amazing, it just furthers fuels the fire of anti-semites.

I find the laws against questioning the Holocaust ridiculous.

History should stand on it's on legs, and not upheld by a law.

I fail to understand how Politicians can put a law like this in place and then wonder why people might start questioning it.

Also, pic related.

What do you know about this book? Is legitimate, just some joker having a giggle?

To be honest Holocaust Denying seems to be a big thing in burgerland because they put so much focus on the Holocaust

Like I get it, Its annoying how it is politicalised, but it happened, No Need to deny the suffering of millions because some politician and Nationalist uses said suffering to justify X

again

was a response to your previous post by any chance

Not him, but it was.

does anyone here think that lots of jews died and were killed but that there was no gassing operation

(pls no ban im jewish and just wondering)

Nah we have Ariel photos of the gas chambers. We also have journals found in the ground around the gas chambers that were buried by sonderkommandos in which the killing process is detailed.

I don't understand completely why you would think the numbers are unreasonable. The amount of people that dies just fighting the war dwarfs 6 mill and it's well established that jews were being worked to death and rounded up in mass for systemic murder. I have had this discussion before and i argued that denying the holocaust while not necessarily antisemitic, is based the on the self centered perception that if you did not see it, it did not happen which of course isn't logical. The rape of nanking gets a similar treatment but there's no plausible reason why anyone would lie about either event. The holocaust has been linked to the zionist movement but the world did not let the creation of Israel happen just because they felt bad for jewish people.

Saudi Arabia has secret documents from Yugoslavia that prove the west/jews made the holocaust up, and so the Quran is right about jews being evil.
Or so a turkish muslim told me.
He also thought jhins are real and dinosaurs a hoax to make profit from museums.

>implying the Quran is right about anything
wew lad

I do believe holocaust happened. The issues I have are these:

>criminalization of holocaust denial

This is paints on head retarded. There's absolutely no reason why believing in incorrect theories should send you to jail.

>Jewish monopoly on the holocaust

How come we always hear about the Jews dying but nobody cares about Gypsies or cripples? It's literally always about Jews.

I'm not sure you got the core point of my post.
I was bringing up the quran and islams and saudi arabia in particular as a massive, well funded and determined source of holocaust denialism. And real, actual genocidal antisemitism.

Anybody that went to school or watched a documentary knows that the holocaust wasn't solely jews. It's the fact that the holocaust was centered on the jews and that the camps and ghettos were for the jews that makes them the main subject of discussion. Anybody could talk about the women that were sterilized for hysteria during the 1930's but it wasn't so widely done and it was the nazi's main objective for the bulk of the war.

Because the Jews were specifically sought out for annihilation. That isn't the case with any other groups of people besides the gypsies to a lesser extent.

Mostly because of how viciously and explicitely they were targeted and blamed for everything ever. Gypsies/homos/undesireables were a sidenote for hitler/nazis, his hatespeeches and vitriol and propaganda was targeted against jews specificly, and they were dehumanized the most.
Laws against denialism are retarded though. Its just that they kinda got connected with hatespeech so much that people thought it would help. Not a smart political move.

strictly speaking believing in incorrect theories does not send you to jail - public dissemination does
furthermore it is not just the ww2 holocaust that gets that treatment

Bullshit. People have been investigating this since the '40s, the number is approximately 5.8-6.2 million Jews killed, with another 6 million various other undesireables dead as well, and that number is rock solid.

>muh holohoax

gypsies have it pretty rough, most people don't really seem to give a shit about them in the slightest

>Because the Jews were specifically sought out for annihilation

And no other people were ever genocided like that?

Fuck off m8.

Gypsies are not rich, so no one cares.

If jews were as poor as in the middleages, they would've been kicked to the curb too for crying too much.

You cant deny something that never happened

>Jews were specifically sought out for annihilation
So were gays, communists, gypsies, cripples, mental invalids etc.

Not in the case of the holocaust you retard. Slavs and poles were going to be treated as sub-humans with little to no rights after the war, but would not be fully annihilated like the Jews or gypsies. There is a reason why all of the unregistered prisoners of Auschwitz who were gassed upon arrival were jews, while the Poles and slavs were rarely gassed and always registered upon arrival.

Wrong on the gays and communists. But there were programs in place to exterminate all of the German cripples and mental ill as far back as 1939, and continued to operate until 1942. I also mentioned gypsies being sough for annihilation but you seemed to have ignored that.

>Wrong on the gays and communists
You sure?
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Holocaust
They even had their own badge

IT FUCKING HAPPENED SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU DELUSIONAL RETARDS. THE NAZIS KILLED PEOPLE THAT DID NOT FIT THEIR VISION SYSTEMATICALLY, AND MANY WERE JEWS. FUCKING DEAL WITH IT

They were put into concentration camps but not gassed. Hitler only cared about German gays because he didn't want the German people to have lower birth rates. Also political prisoners were usually favored for prisoner positions of authority, not something you would hand out to a group of people if your intentions were to exterminate them. Jews and gypsies were the only ones were were gassed upon arrival and in large numbers. Its pretty obvious that the intention was to annihilate them and subjugate everyone else.

see

>They were put into concentration camps but not gassed
Literally the only purpose of concentration camps was to exterminate whoever was in
>Its pretty obvious that the intention was to annihilate them and subjugate everyone else.
Just because they weren't exterminated immediately doesn't mean they didn't mean them to be annihilated,
If we go by that logic, then there shouldn't have been any Jewish survivors at all

>Literally the only purpose of the concentration caps was to exterminate whoever was in it

That completely wrong. People sent to concentration camps were actually given sentences to serve. Political prisoners for instance were usually sent to concentration camps for 6 months to a year and than released. Criminals were also sent to the camps and released after serving a sentence. Jews and gypsies were the only ones being put into concentration camps for the sole purpose of annihilating the entire race. The majority of Jews were gassed upon arrival, but the strong were kept for slave labor, which made up most of the holocaust survivors.

The holocaust may or may not have happened but it was justified nonetheless. It made a lot of people's brains light up.

Could someone answer this?

What's to gain from lying about millions of deaths?

Nothing is ever said in the mainstream about typhus or starvationn. Take Anne Frank for instance. Postergirl for the holocaust.

>spent 2 months with her family in auschwitz without being gassed
>transited to Bergen-Belsen
>mother dies of starvation
>Anne plus sister die of typhus
>father survives

That's the holocaust in a nutshell. That's all we have evidence for. The only problem is that is more of an accident than a crime and isn't what's referred to by "holocaust". It's always

>6 million
>government conspiracy
>gas chambers

If there were any proof of these core assertions of the holocaust, then it wouldn't be possible to deny it. But there isn't.

There is, however, evidence of industrial scale fraud and lies, which casts extreme suspicion over the whole narrative.

And that's all the holocaust is: a narrative. Without any primary source corroboration apart from discredited testimonies.

And it also happens to be illegal to investigate or even question in the countries it is alleged to have happened. Gee. I wonder why.

>THE HOLOCAUST IN 10 SECONDS
youtube.com/watch?v=oUGKmCdAaN4

>THE HOLOCAUST IN 20 SECONDS
youtube.com/watch?v=zGwn5R1PC9Q

>MORE EYE WITNESS TESTIMONIES
youtube.com/watch?v=ftoAnQV-9-4

>THE LAST DAYS OF THE BIG LIE: SPIELBERG'S HOAX
youtube.com/watch?v=80GgRWuXcO8

>AUSCHWITZ
youtube.com/watch?v=RHzWo79dCHs

>MAJDANEK
youtube.com/watch?v=CHqlf0D9nuQ

>TREBLINKA, BELZEC, SOBIBOR
youtube.com/watch?v=7dxsVSzL4HE

No it's not. Source please.

Where did all the jews of Europe go? The simple answer is: they emigrated after 2,000 years of persecution for whatever reason, because for the first time in history they could, either to America or Israel.

You can compare the number of jews in America and Asia in 1939 with the number of jews in Asia and America today.

Whole of North America 1939: 4,383,643
USA 2014: 10,000,000

Whole of Asia 1939: 582,509
Israel 2014: 6,451,000

>World Almanac says no population drop during the war.
socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/the-holocaust-6-million-lie-population-of-jews-1938-15-748-million-

>Jewish census showing 6 million discrepancy - one number for the media and you, one number for reality.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#Countries_and_Territories

The Third of the Holocaust documentary discusses this in more detail from primary sources at 4:04:41.

youtube.com/watch?v=7dxsVSzL4HE

Holohoaxers will tell you that the World Almanac revised their figures after the holocaust.

Here is the original World Almanac showing no population drop again.

>World Almanac says no population drop during the war.
socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/the-holocaust-6-million-lie-population-of-jews-1938-15-748-million-

But yes, the numbers were revised. Let's examine how. They explain here in this jewish source.

nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/worldalmanac.html

NB how in 1949 the World Almanac mysteriously revised its post-war figure to 11 million (they don't explain how). However, this still didn't fit their story of 6 million, so they also had to mysteriously revise their pre-war figure by 1 million too (they don't explain how).

1948 actual: 15,753,638
1949 revised: 11,266,600
1938 actual: 15,748,091
1939 revised: 16,643,120

cont.

Look at who was making these revisions. It wasn't the World Almanac on its own. There was another organisation called the American Jewish Committee working with them, producing a different set of data.

If true, it would mean that despite all the chaos of post-WWII Europe, some random agency in America was able to take more accurate censuses of pre- and post-war Europe than the World Almanac could at the time in question.

It would also mean that, despite all the chaos of pre-WWII Europe, during 1 year the jewish population mysteriously EXPLODED by 895,029 or 5.7%, or 285% faster than the world population growth rate at this time of around 2%.

The Nizkor source itself explains that the numbers weren't revised because of a new census.

>"WHERE THE EXTRA POPULATION BETWEEN 1938 AND 1939 CAME FROM IS NOT CITED, THOUGH ONE MIGHT SPECULATE..."

No, merely to fit retroactively the mystical number of 6 million, as stated in the letter at the bottom of the source.

>"THE AUTHORITIES AGREE THAT HITLER'S WHOLESALE MASSACRE OF JEWS DURING THE WAR REDUCED THE JEWISH POPULATION TO PERHAPS 12 MILLION TODAY."

What authorities? By what means? Not the World Almanac, that is certain. The AJC just lied.