Balkans.. what the fuck happened anyway?

Recommend me some decent books.
I know knowthing except that everyone hated everyone.

Lets solve this once and for all, boffins.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Partisans#Composition
youtu.be/5khn2rHLo5k
youtube.com/watch?v=M_PzsfXbyAw
twitter.com/AnonBabble

>Yugoslavia is a bunch of tiny slav nations cobbled together by a charismatic dictator
>dictator dies
>nationalism begins to resurface
>Serbs are the only people really interested in keeping Yugoslavia together
>communism falls
>Serbs try and keep anyone from forming their own country because muh Yugoslavia and because they're afraid of what will happen to Serbian minorities in newly independent countries
>fight 4 separate wars trying to keep places under Yugoslavian control that don't want to be
>during the third of these wars, the one in Bosnia, they storm a bunch of UN compounds and start shooting at NATO fighter jets
>Serb army in Yugoslavia gets bombed
>Serbs leave Yugoslavia
>insurgency in Kosovo heats up
>at this point, everyone is thoroughly sick of Serbias shit
>Serbia proper is bombed by NATO, Kosovo becomes independent
>Serbia still eternally salty over losing a bunch of wars, doubly so because they started all of them
>Russia salty because Serbia is traditionally Russia's ally, but the Yeltsin administration was too weak, and too concerned with relations with the west to bother shielding Serbia from the consequences of their retard actions

I'll start at the beginning, which is end of WW1. The Serbs were always the majority in Yugoslavia, and in the 'Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes' the Serb king split up country in such a way, that the Serbs were also the majority in almost every province (pic related). This caused considerable anger in all the other ethnicities, and most of all the Croats, who in return became Nazi collaborators and committed horrible war crimes against Serbian civilians (Jasenovac concentration camp).

The communists inherited Yugoslavia after WW2, and they knew exactly what was the problem and at all cost wanted to avoid repeating it. So they decided to balance the power between all ethnicities, such that no single ethnicity could pass laws that would harm another. Most importantly this meant leaving the supreme executive power in the hands of a council of 6, the communist party chairman of each member state - and requiring a simple majority to declare war, change the constitution, pass laws, etc. Montenegro, Serbia, and Macedonia would always give the "pro-Serbian/Orthodox" vote, while the other 3, Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia could counter it. If the parties couldn't find a compromise over ethnic issues, they would always end up in a stalemate. To seal the deal, the member states were forbidden to secede by the constitution, ruling out any change in the supreme council and making the civil war of 91-95 impossible (!). And to make doubly sure, they even declared Croatia and Bosnia as multi-ethnic in their respective constitutions, forcing any constitutional changes to be approved by every ethnicity in the respective state.

So Croatia and Bosnia were twice bound by law, Serbia was bound by the fact that they had large minorities in other constituent states, and Montenegro, Slovenia and Macedonia were also bound by the constitution. The communist feared a break up the most, and they made it impossible.

Country was unsuccesfull for a long time, even umder tito.
War started when kosovo openly blamed serbs and system
>slovenes blamed system
>croats blamed
>bosnians were blaming each others
>serbs blamed croats and others
>montenegro still didn't work
>macedonia was bussy with claiming Alexander

>croats blamed serbs**
Fuck me

>I know knowthing except that everyone hated everyone
>everyone hated everyone
>hated
>ed
>d

...

Is this """"funny"""" story implying Russia created the Balkan countries?

Now, enter the mid to late 80s, where communism was starting to fall apart and the economy declined. After the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, many people wanted away from communism, even many former communists themselves. For the minorities this meant either seceding, or fighting the hardliners in Belgrade - of course the former option was more convenient. Slovenia especially wanted to secede, since they were the most economically developed republic.

Milosevic came to power as the chairman of the Serbian communist party, and he realized what a secession of Slovenia would mean in the supreme council - a 3 to 2 "pro-Serbian/Orthodox" majority on every vote. Since Serbia never had any claim on Slovenia, he could let them go all the same. So Milosevic (most probably) incited Kucan to start the separatist in Slovenia. When the vote came around in the supreme council to mobilize the Yugoslav People's Army (at that time the 4th largest in Europe) to crush the revolt, the Bosnians and Croatians voted against, the Montenegrins and Macedonians for, and everybody waited for Milosevic (Serbia) to seal the deal. However, Milosevic voted against, and the army was powerless.

Since the Slovenian separatists were uncontested and were besieging Yugoslav border troops and recruits in their barracks, Yugoslavia had no other option but to (unconstitutionally) accept the Slovenian independence. At the cost of the lives of few recruits, Milosevic had won a great victory for the Serbs, who now de-facto ruled the council. And since he was the Serbian chairman, he was the de-facto new dictator of Yugoslavia. Croatia and Bosnia couldn't possibly leave, since unlike Slovenia, they were bound by their own constitutions and would have to convince the Serbian minority in their country to secede - which would never have happened.

Of course, many Croats and Bosnians were having none of it. And this is where the civil war begins.

Everyone know that croats are iranians who colonized iliriyan land, and that serbs are god choosen nation.
And bosnians were there forever. Builiding pyramides n shit

...

Tito was the only thing that held it together.

>It is important to understand that Yugo Nations were equally represented in the Partisans

That's straight up a lie. It was mostly Serbs, Montenegrins, and then everyone else. few Croats and even fewer Slovenes.

>1989
>many people wanted away from communism, even many former communists themselves.
Not true. Many people wanted farther federalisation and economicly more open borders.
People were always in favor of communism, but things changed as effect of war which created big nationalism rise, especially in Croatia and Serbia

Shit's fucked, yo

This also completely disregards the events in Slovenia and the grand scheme of things in Croatia. The war was not fought over "captured Police stations". And:

>"But it's clear as a day the Serbs were the bad guys"

If you honestly believe that, you're a moron and I feel sorry for you.

Just small correction,Slovenian independence was not unconstitutional. By the constitution of Jugoslavia from 1974 every nation had a right to proclaim independence.

Wrong.

>Previous constitutions had granted the republics the constitutional right right to self-determination, including a right to secede. In 1974 Constitution, state that these rights belong to the "nations of Yugoslavia." At the same time, constitution includes a number of provisions that may deny a right to secede. Article 5 requires the consent of all republics and provinces before the borders of Yugoslavia can be altered. Article 283 gives the Yugoslav Assembly the power to determine alterations in the state's boundaries. It was not clearly defined whether it was possible unilateral secession or only if the federal government and all of the republics and provinces agree to it.[6][7]

Any source on that?
Serbs were largest ethnic in partisans especially at the beginning of war, later with continuous desertion of NDH forces situation much stabilised
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Partisans#Composition

Sauce on that m8.
Slovenes never did any big collaborations as Serbs and Croats did.
Slovenes had few para militares but nothing really significant

Exactly what I said famerlan.

Serbs are by far largest perpetrators of war crimes accoridng Hague (more than 80%), do i need to link you siege of Vukovar, Sarajevo, Dubrovnik..

You're wrong, but discussing this would pertain to nowadays politics and so is Veeky Forums unrelated.

According to Goldstein, among Croatian partisans at the end of 1941, 77% were Serbs and 21.5% were Croats, and others as well as unknown nationalities. The percentage of Croats in the Partisans had increased to 32% by August 1942, which rose to 34% by September 1943. After the capitulation of Italy, it increased further. At the end of 1944 there were 60.4% Croats, 28.6% Serbs and 11% of other unknown nationalities in Croatian partisan units.[67] By 1944, the Partisans in Croatia were 60.4% Croat, 28.6% Serb, 2.8% Muslim and 8.2% other.[46] Overall, from 1941 to 1945, the Partisans in Croatia were 61% Croat, 28% Serb, and rest composed of Slovenes, Muslims, Montenegrins, Italians, Hungarians, Czechs, Jews and Volksdeutsche

these numbers show that Partisans were far from homogenous Serbian group you are suggesting, if anything they might point to other way if you look at the population of other ethnic groups

Get ready for Serbian nationalists and their WE DINDU NUFFIN

you will need to do more than "you are wrong and conspiracy theory" to prove im wrong.
Are there any crimes commited by other parties that even come close to Srebrenica, Siege of Sarajevo or Vukovar

You were too late.

Do you realize the difference between being a Partisan (from 1941 on), and defecting to the Partisans when the war was already over?

I think not.

Germany was already crushed by 1944.

If we are honest, we know that in oluja action, ustase-croats would burn serbian houses and pillage their villages even if serbs wouldn't escape with their tractores.

"We" dont know anything.
Court of justice declared it was fully legitimate military action.

In 1941 atrocities of NDH were not known to general population.

If the Hague was a honest war crime tribunal, it would be filled with Americans.

You know that the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia was done without UN mandate? It's convenient to portray the Serbs as bad guys, or else the bombing of 1999 was unjust.

>In 1941 atrocities of NDH were not known to general population.

That's irrelevant. The number of Partisans by ethnic background was the question.

>legitimate military action.
So was bombing of Beograd.
But that doesn't mean it was correct military action.

NATO bombing of Belgrade was done after 7 years of genocide party done by Serbs and targets were announced before they were even hit.
Its not convinient to portray them, it is truth.
It were not Croatia who razed Novi Sad but Serbs who razeed Vukovar, it was not Bosnia who sieged Belgrade but Serbs Sarajevo.

How is that not relevant, was there any reason for Croats to war against their own nation for Yugoslavia, especially after last 20 years.
It is very relevant.
Anyway i wrote that Serbs were clear majority at the beginning of war.

Freeing 1/3 of your country from terrorists who ethnically cleansed it before, bombarded nearly every large town in country and refused every peace offer not just by Croatia but also by foreign politicians, sounds very correct.

youtu.be/5khn2rHLo5k
This thread.
People still don't get it

According to data set forth at the meeting of the Government of the RSK in July 1992, its ethnic composition was 88% Serbs, 7% Croats, 5% others.[36] As of November 1993, less than 400 ethnic Croats still resided in UNPA Sector South,[47] and between 1,500 and 2,000 remained in UNPA Sector North.[48]

just to show what RSK was

fugg forgot
Thus Serbs comprised 52.3% and Croats 35.8% of the population of SAO Krajina respectively in 1991.

>Freeing
Freeing is one thing, Oluja is other thing.
I wonder why innocente serbian population run away from freeing.

Serbs are a shitty people. That is all.

>NATO bombing of Belgrade was done after 7 years... bla bla

That's irrelevant, because it didn't have an UN mandate. The war in 1999 was legally unrelated to the war 1991-95.

>was there any reason for Croats to war against their own nation for Yugoslavia

I wasn't discussing their motives. I was discussing their numbers, the year they joined, and the operations they were part of.

You will have to ask leadership of RSK and leadership of what was left of Yugoslavia who ordered evacuation.
It was not accident that large amount were sent to Kosovo or RS to booster Serbian population, that would othervise become politically neutered in Croatia

>Serbs flee

"ordered evacuation"

>Croats flee

"genocide!"

Your head is filled to the brim with shit. I'm glad I don't have see people like you in everyday life.

Country and ethnic group that was responsible for large amount of crime just 4 years aho is doing it again, there is clear connection.

Well i posted the number so there's nothing to discuss here.

Yes you did, thank you for that.

> among Croatian partisans at the end of 1941, 77% were Serbs and 21.5% were Croats

You can recognize that Croats left after that territory became part of RSK, Serbs left before it was reconquered by Croatia.
You can also recognize scale of destruction that was left behind by RSK.
Also, its not me who said that one is criminal deed and other is not, it is international community.
Keep believing whatever Seselj or Wight of Chains filled your head with

>large amount of crime just 4 years aho is doing it again

Why didn't they give NATO a UN mandate then?

Because China and Russia didnt want it.
I will not go through if it was just, but bombing was answer for nearly decade of Milosevic warring through yugoslavia.
If Kosovo was isolated incident i doubt something similar would have happened

>Croats left before XYZ, Serbs left after ZYX

That's just grabbing onto straws now.

Hate to burst your bubble, but the Hague is not the international community (pic related).

Better luck with your education next time. Also, I am not a Serb.

>one leaves with government's instruction before foreign army even arrives
>other is expulsed by foreign army after their arrival

Sure you are not mate.

>Keep believing whatever Seselj or Wight of Chains filled your head with
Keep believing whatever Gotovina and Sanader filled your head with.

See how stupid is that

That was my answer to yours
"Your head is filled to the brim with shit. I'm glad I don't have see people like you in everyday life"
I dont want to start shitflinging contest with you

It would be better that Serbian civilists would wait for """"""peaceful""""""" Croatian army?
They would be expulsed too

I am another poster m8

And Roman Empire would fly to moon in 6th century if there wasnt christianity.
This is not alt-history thread.

Croatian glorifying of Oluja is basicly Croatian DINDU NUFFIN and nicely wraped celebration of Croatian fasizem.
So be carefully with that.

And im not Serb eaither

Montenegrin bro?

>Russian glorifying of Battle of Berlin is basicly Russian DINDU NUFFIN and nicely wraped celebration of Russian fasizem.
So be carefully with that.

No one is denying some crimes happened, but operation as whole was not in any way crime

Slovenian. I really like Croatia and Serbia. Both people and country (culture and nature).
I guess our view on politics is different since of beginning.
No hard feelings bros.

Had a Slovenian commie bro, best commie bros.

I'm not a Yugo nostalgic, but man, I wish we had a proper country, proper universities, proper economy, proper rule of law. Fuck the "Yugoslav nation", nations are imaginary anyway. But we needed the state, that's what people never understood.

I hope the EU thing works out now that Yugoslavia is fucked beyond redemption.

>he supports NATO

I never consider one of my opinions to be a fact until I post it on Veeky Forums and get a smuganimegirl reaction face and a line of greentext.

>Balkanposters

Why we didn't just turn leave you to the turks I'll never know.

Yugoslavia could have worked as a democratic, capitalistic (con)federation, and I'm kinda sad we went full commie after WW2.

In my opinion the EU can't work with Balkanized Balkan States. They should be united under an umbrella, and then entering the EU as one entity.

Idk, maybe some kind of Yugoslavianism will form when the EU becomes unfavourable? Or would the whole "WE ARE INDEPENDENT BALKAN STATES AND WE DONT NEED NO GREATER STATE" nationalist shitfest prevent that? I mean it can't do much, since everyone's signing into the EU, which is basically becoming a confederacy.

thanks for posting this, good explanation

Didn't Bosniak forces shell their own civilians to blame the Serbs?

>people unironically think Yugoslavia was economicaly more functional than modern ex-yugoslavia nations
>yugoslavia under Dindo din have money for paperclips and pens in government offices

...

C'mon man, based Rambo Jelinčič would value us that highly. We're literal whos.

>Hague

They couldn't convict Seselj of hate speech. Hague is a joke.

Thank you for not posting the full picture.

Here's the full picture. Slovenia never fought the actual YPA, only border guards and recruits.

it was still way more functional

and all the ex-yu states run on foreign credit any way

Sonja Biserk - The Implosion of Yugoslavia (The Fatal Attraction of Serb Nationalism)

That and the BBC documentary on the same subject gives you absolutely everything you need to know seriously

Do not, I repeat do not take recommendations from Balkaners. Take it from me.

>That and the BBC documentary on the same subject

It's good.

youtube.com/watch?v=M_PzsfXbyAw