Former Christian here. I can't really go with this faith anymore. I've narrowed down my option to two choices: Judaism or Islam. Which one should I go with?
Which one is better at backing up it's theological claims?
What are the pros and cons of each?
Atheism.
Islam is the best faith but religion really isn't subjective. It's far better than Judaism though.
>Be Muslim
>Get put on a CIA watchlist
>Be Jewish
>Get mad professional connections
The choice is obvious.
They're both theologically indefensible, if you think Christianity is bad there is no way you could work with any of these.
Islamic civic life is great though, if that's what you're really after, a lifestyle.
Both of them also have their espeacially retarded quirks, but you at least can be a muslim without marrying a jew first and hope to be accepted because you lack the holy DNA or something like that.
Islam has its own baggage that might repulse you in the end the way christianity did, so your faith will be one of strenght which is another plus.
Judaism. They still let you drink.
And to be fair, the Quran has more scientific errors in it than the Torah.
If you're going pure Quran Islam it's probably better. You coming from Christianity to it's (claimed) successor might be a problem. I don't know why you left Christianity though.
They are all equally theologically defensible, but if all you speak/read is English you'll have a hard time finding good literature on Islam that's akin to something like Aquinas.
In any case, if you are abandoning your old faith and suddenly feel the need to fill the void with one of the remaining two mainstream Abrahamic religions, without any real understanding or connection to either, you are an interesting study on the psychology of theism just by existing.
Unless you are just trolling, in which case, good on you, 7/10 for getting this response from me, you stupid fucking faggot.
Well obviously Judaism. Jews are inferior human beings, but they also secretly rule the world with impunity, which is in no way whatsoever a paradoxical worldview.
Word of warning though, if you chance your mind about being a Muslim the official penalty for apostasy is death.
>Out of the frying pan
>Into the fire
Religious fags everyone, they can't live without being cucked by someone.
>Islamic civic life is great though
are you insane?
>Interesting study subject.
Not really.
The thing is -at least in the west- there are no alternative religions but for some often heretically distorted hippie versions of far eastern ones present besides the other abrahamic ones that would seem intriguing for a possible convert.
Islam is very strong at the moment and often gets away with a lot of its claims unchallenged due to the strenght of its community and the fear and respect it instills in the infidels.
That is attractive as power is attractive for some people by its own merit.
So its not really that bizarre, just some form of spiritual oppurtonism.
>Former Christian here. I can't really go with this faith anymore
Then become Catholic/Orthodox and be apart of the true faith.
>Judaism or Islam
>Which one is better at backing up it's theological claims?
Judaism but it's been superseded by Jesus' Church. Islam is laughably wrong.
>Islam is very strong at the moment and
Not really. It is cannibalising itself. The entire Ummah is imploding. You have a situation where muslims hate each other more than they hate jews, christians or pagans
Islam's actively looking for converts, but if you want to go Jewish you'll need to find an Anne Frankfu first.
Zoroastrianism. It's pretty dank and needs more followers.
or Sikhism
Everything is theologically defensible since theology is the study of doublethink and moving goalposts
>Judaism but it's been superseded by Jesus' Church
>Judaism has anything to do with the religion of the Israelites, the worship of YHWH and the tanakh beyond superficial ritual reasons
LMAO
>catholicism
Better not.
If he is european and doesnt live in one of the few cozy western european villages in which not 80% of the population is sterile and over 50 he will be faced with infantile feelgood gospels, overaged communities and prists who social signal for the latest political trend.
I thought about reading into christianity.
Orthodoxy is still legit and appears strong but focusses more on keeping certain ethnics pious in a way that is befitting to them (churchslavic/arameic gospels) so.outsiders may have a harder time getting in as long as they dont bring some bigger chunk of their own community with them.
Islam is fucking stupid though. In Quran sura 11 it says that Allah created the world in 6 days, and then goes on to say what he did each day. However if you add the days up it adds to 8. Christ this reads like a parody of Abrahamic religion
source: quran.com
Former muslim here OP, ama
Eh, while the wahabbis are fucking up the other groups and shias are struggling for relevance as always you still can bet on them being closer to each other when it matters. Also its not like their numerous kids go through waves of apostasy at the moment like it happened to european christians.
At least if they are still the minority in a country.
i misspoke, in sura 11 it says that it was created in 6 days but in sura 41 it goes over what he did in each of the 8 days (lol)
>reject an Abrahamic faith
>in favor of two other Abrahamic faiths
That's like rejecting Coca Cola and then narrowing your alternatives down to Pepsi and Dr. Pepper
what made you leave islam?
I mean I'm a muslim so I'm going to back Islam. No matter what I say it's obviously going to be biased. I love Islam, study it if you want and you might have the same feelings as me.
All forms of theology just seemed inadequate in explaining the universe. That's how it started. It just does not make sense to me anymore.
You are sunni or shia?
While 99.9% of so called "Jews" are Talmudists, there are a few true hold outs like the 777 Samaritans that are being persecuted BY ISRAEL.
>Oral Torah isn't a thing
>If he is european and doesnt live in one of the few cozy western european villages in which not 80% of the population is sterile and over 50 he will be faced with infantile feelgood gospels, overaged communities and prists who social signal for the latest political trend.
What are you talking about?
And it was written down into the Torah. The Talmud is a new invention by apostates that postdates Christianity.
Im saying that if he happens to be european (him being that or from the anglosphere would be an assumption based on his faith struggles and christianity as his initial faith) catholicism is a bad choice currently if you wanna enter a religious community.
They need to reform badly in the west or die slowly/africanise fully.
>age = level of veracity
>mfw /pol/theists actually believe this
I love how Christians on Veeky Forums laugh at sola Scriptura UNTIL Judaism comes up.
>lol you need to join a continuous church, sola scriptura is dumb
>Except for Jews, they should only follow the bible and not care about what historic church leaders have to say about anything.
Can't find anything on these guys.
But either way, I'd bet money that their readings of the Tanakh are still informed by the talmudic tradition and the kabbalah.
Underrated post. Islam is enthusiastic about conversion just like Christianity, but Jews actively discourage converts. They're supposed to send you away three times, and you probably have to marry in. Even then,you would probably have to be Reform, certainly never Orthodox.
You have to be over 18 to post here.
Why the fuck would you drop Christianity for Islam or Judaism?
>Which one is better at backing up it's theological claims?
On a scale of 1-10? Islam gets a 0. There's a reason it only exist in areas where there's no internet connection; archeology in the 1800s already debunked it. Judaism gets a 10/10, because it's so small that any debate is meaningless. Christianty gets a 10/10, because Europeans are pretty smart and already thought of every counter argument and answer
>What are the pros and cons of each?
In Islam? It literally means submission. There are no pros. In Judaism? Well, you can actually live a normal life, just go to church. In Christianty? Same shit as Judaism.
>Sky-daddy believers calling others underage.
>Christianity gets a 10/10 for theological claims
Christians struggle to make any sense of Jesus being the messiah, or even not being polytheists for that matter.
Whilst Europeans have debated the broader points of theism to hell and back, the actual underpinnings of Christianity specifically are still nothing short of nonsense.
Jews won't want you, Islam will welcome you.
>autistic thinks childish name calling makes him mature and savvy
Im not a fan of Islam but thats just bait.
>Calls others underage and autistic.
>y-you're just childish. Stop calling me names!
I'm not encouraging Islam.
But Christianity itself has been absolutely BTFO by Jewish theologians and has been for many centuries now. There's simply no defending it.
...
Just because you've never heard of, or have found, the arguments, doesn't mean they don't exist. You're looking at about...1500 years of theological discussions by the same race of people who study atomic molecules, traveled to the moon and discovered worm holes in space.
The point is, I think somewhere along the line, at least one of them talked about it
:^) yes we all know how those Jews BTFO Christians so hard, that the Roman Empire ended up converting to it
>One guy said it
>Therefore it's Muslim doctrine
The idea that Islam isn't universalist is totally retarded.
I've never understood this shit, how can you choose a religion? Don't you have to actually feel the stuff they teach you is the absolute truth of the universe in order to accept it? I could understand converting to whatever faith if you felt it drew you but going out there shopping for belief systems and hoping to slap a label on yourself sounds incredibly intellectually dishonest.
I crave for a revival of gnostic sects ao we can just dump the clusterfuck of tribal levantine history that is the OT.
Didnt abraham plant a tree for the Lord ?
Why did the followers of Moses and modern jews in general dont follow this practize that eerily resembles the one of their pagan neighboors?
>implying "Sky-daddy" isn't a childish insult
>implying crusading for atheism doesn't reek of autism
>You're looking at about...1500 years of theological discussions by the same race of people who study atomic molecules, traveled to the moon and discovered worm holes in space.
Yes, good for them.
Congratulations, their descendents went to space. This does not make their musings on Jesus' fulfillment of Old Testament teachings to be any more compelling in the face of Jewish criticism.
Not to mention if we're taking scientific accomplishments as making theological views more credible then Jews still wipe the floor with Christians.
>:^) yes we all know how those Jews BTFO Christians so hard, that the Roman Empire ended up converting to it
Yes, and now huge amounts of the descendents of those Romans are Muslim. Guess this means Islam is the one true faith.
>Implying appealing to maturity isn't the most childish tactic there is.
>Implying anyone here was crusading for atheism.
Christians were racist as fuck once as well. This does not make Christianity itself any less universalist.
>Lying about polytheism is so deep and original guys
Ah...I knew you were the same guy
>Jews still wipe the floor
Yes, European Ashkezani Jews. Not semetic ones
>implying crusading for religion doesn't reek of autism
ftfy
you started it
72 virgins vs nuffin
>jews wiped the floor in science
If secular non religious jews do not count and we only take pious researches as valid examples I am pretty sure your statement wont be accurate anymore.
>Yes, European Ashkezani Jews. Not semetic ones
Okay? Is your point that Europeans are the master race? Whatever.
But how does this relate to the validity of Christianity vs Judaism?
*sigh* Where did you get the idea Samaritans are being persecuted by Israel? Samaritans have it pretty good in Israel, (a hell of a lot better than they had under Muslim and Christian rule,) especially since their religion is so close to Judaism. And all the Talmud really is a book dictating how the laws of the Torah should be interpreted, and ways to be careful not to break those laws that Jews have to follow.
...
Here is a quick history of the "Abrahamic" religions:
Judaism:
>Some good ideas. Very small. Unappealing to outsiders. They're outdated, because they refused to adapt to Christianty. They're contrarians who sadly do not accept the Lord's teachings that Jesus is God.
Christianity:
>The same ideas as Judaism, but with some more, new ideas. Very appealing. The early Christians were peaceful and accepted death without fighting back, which attracted followers. The Romans, although disliking it first, loved it. It's philosophies have shaped the modern world
Islam
>Bastardization of Judaism. It spread quickly by warfare, by mainly attacking incredibly weak Africans. As soon as it came in contact with more powerful tribes, it was turned back. now every Muslim is forced to remain Muslim because it stagnated and peaked around 1000 years ago.
Orthodox Jews will only want people absolutely dedicated to following every biblical law.
If you consider the way Manicheanism spread it seems to have been a contender for a most truthful religion.
Sadly it died ;_;
I've yet to see a single sentence or anything from a Jewish standpoint discussing the "validity" of Christianity vs Judaism
nether , be your own.
In general or in this specific conversation?
Early Christians used to smash up pagan cult sites, attack the local pagans as a mob, and celebrate the leading monk responsible by declaring him a saint and writing a hagiography about him.
>saint
>early Christians
Before Catholcism my man
I don't know, find something and post it
Advaita Vedanta
But the rewards of life are a bunch of loving wives and a horde of children
Me on the far left
Okay, check this out
reddit.com
The crux of the argument is that Jesus died leaving the messianic prophecy unfulfilled. This has been a mainstay of Jewish v Christian theological debate since there was such a thing as Christianity and thus far there has never been a real answer beyond "He'll do it later" or "He actually did do it but for whatever reason the world is nothing like how the bible explained it would be".
absolutely the correct answer. kind, philosophically complete, doesnt deny other spiritual paths. sophia perennis is another term. forget about judaism and islam unless you can find the mystical path through them.
All right, I'll take a little peek. Just know that I'm not theologian, and these are just my opinions
On the Isiah verse, Isiah, before prophesying, says "In the last days". As a Jew, you know that's a pretty common phrase among the prophets. So thats a moot argument, purely semantics
I scrolled down and as for the rest, they are fairly poor "arguments" if they can even be called so. I wouldn't even call them arguments, because they're more along the lines of "begging the question". The "arguments" are that because of the Holocaust or because of China's military, Jesus could not possible be Lord. That's not an argument, but more of the writer trying to confirm his own misunderstandings. Most of what he said could easily be smackdowned by a $5 book at Barnes n Noble
Except that is a very valid argument because the messianic prophecies of Issiah specifically stipulate that the world will be at peace.
>"Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore."
The fact that armies still exist and massive atrocities have happened to the Jews in recent history is a pretty glaring flaw in the idea that the messiah has come. Of course the Christian response is that all this will be resolved in the second coming but that's a whole new point of contention.
The major issue is really that jews are (and have really always been) hardcore materialists, while Christians, and thus in their view prophecy is not.
Yes, Isiah states the world will be at peace in the last days. "In the last days" is/was a common phrase by Hebrew prophets. As a Jew, you should know this. After the last of days, according to Jewish theology, the Lord will create a new Earth, which is the world Isiah talks about for the rest of his book. Often times it's called New Jerusalem, or Heaven.
The Christian is already a citizen of New Jerusalem. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you," are the words of Jesus. By accepting Christ, the Christian is not like the Jew, who sits around waiting for deliverance. If God is Love, and God and Jesus are One, then the Christian who emulates Christ is in a constant euphoric feeling of purity and love. The Christian is actively "praying without ceasing" (another of Jesus' words), because the Christian is in a state of constant love or peace, yearning for the purity that Judaism rejects
>When Jesus came to earth, the Jews were looking for the Messiah to come and elevate the Jewish nation to prominence. Instead of hearing a message of repentance, they anticipated a Deliverer who would lead them in a successful liberation of their nation. And some of the religious authorities apparently believed that they—because of their careful investigation—would be the ones to first discover the promised Savior’s coming.
I'm no theologian, but these are my thoughts at 3AM
How do you know? Can you honestly say you've known every Jew throughout history and then say that each and every one of them was materialistic? Besides, I'm pretty sure Judaism is against materialism and promotes humility.
Ontological materialism you dip, it's important that you know basic terminology when you try to discuss these kinds of things.
That's not how religion works...
Jewish does not promote as much humility as Christianity, but you're right
If you really want to be put on the CIA watch list, then go ahead. Also, going kosher is going to be a bitch though
Not the person you replied to, but the thing is that in Judaism, the last days are supposed to signify when the messiah comes THE FIRST TIME AROUND. There's no concept of a, "second coming," in Judaism. Basically Jews believe that when world peace is achieved, it will be during the messiah's lifetime. Also, don't you think it's a little ironic that the belief in Jesus as messiah has inspired so many wars throughout history when the coming of the messiah is supposed to bring world peace? Maimondies actually pointed out how ironic it was that so many Jews werw murdered in the name of Christianity when te coming of the messiah was supposed to be the ingathering of the Jewish exiles, which, BTW, is supposed to end the Jews' suffering.
>coming to fucking Veeky Forums of all places to ask if you should be a Jew or Muslim
You'd be better off listening to some speakers on YouTube, reading into both faiths and making your own sense of it. Being that most of us were raised in the West, none of us can adequately and/or objectively explain these faiths
>Islam is laughably wrong.
How so? Ignoring hadith
I heard that the word used refers to a span of time such as an era, not necessarily a 24 hour day.
>The thing is -at least in the west- there are no alternative religions
Nonsense, neopagan faiths exist.
Atheism isn't a belief system, it is the lack of one.
How do you explain Islam's spread into southeast Asia? Or its golden age of science and innovation while Christian Europe was in the dark ages?
>Abandoning the only sane religion in Abrahamic fuckery over another batshit insane religion.
Lol.... at you still using the "dark ages" term.
>Or its golden age of science and innovation
1. The Middle-East had always been a place of great innovation before Islam.
2. The Golden Age is largely dependent on the conquered.
3. It's Golden Age stopped whenever the Islamic Jihad was beaten.
4. After the Mongolian invasions, Islamic scientist could no longer compete with Christian or Buddhist scientist. Why? Because Islam's golden age was based on past Greek libraries that were now destroyed
>How do you explain Islam's spread into southeast Asia?
They are two explanation
1. Islam is popular in basically important part in the world, (Arabian Peninsular, Persia and India) so Malay convert themselves so they can jew them for extra golds.
2. Some chinks convert en.wikipedia.org
>are you insane?
>when user doesn't understand sarcasm nor pic related
I think he was talking about in theological debates Jewish leaders were forced into, not so much who ended up converting to what. Also, it's actually possible the Roman Empire would've become Jewish had Christianity never existed. Roman citizens who had some sort of religious feeling tended to be sympathetic towards Judaism for a certain period of time, (I'm guessing for its spirituality,) but then Christianity came along which had the same type of spirituality, was actively trying to seek out converts, and didn't require converts to follow tons of different rules. Frankly, it was easier to be Christian than it was to be Jewish, so Judaism ended up not standing a chance in the end.
The reason why neitzche dispised judaism was; if the start of monotheism was to rub shit on your head the jews would be still doing it