Universal Basic Income thread

They're doing a pilot so they can heavily scrutinise the viability of this program. If the results show that everyone quits working and society falls apart at the seams, it won't be expanded. They want to know how society functions when people get a basic income.

This has been tested once before, in Dauphin, Manitoba: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

That's why everyone pretends to work hard and yada yada shows how great basic income is and how humans are naturally good and THEN when it happens for real and it's too late to revert it do they start slacking off.

Seriously when is this shit going to hit national levels? There's no shortage of hopeless idiots ready to slave away at full time, high stress jobs. (I'm one of them). If this shit finally takes off the labor market might finally start turning in favor of the job seekers instead of the employers.

more importantly it reduces the labor force so that McDonalds* will need to offer a competitive wage if it wants to hire which will in turn encourage them to invest in increasing productivity instead being awash in cheap labor wage killing stagnation.
*applies to all businesses not just McDonalds

I think any of us who've been long-term unemployed can attest to the fact that no one can sit on their ass forever. People will want to get out and do something. Whether they start doing sports, get a job, decide to learn a skill or get an education, they'll try and advance themselves.

One of the major theories is if UBI is introduced, entrepreneurship will sky-rocket.

You are fucking naive. Government studies result in whatever the government wants them to.

Trust me. I CAN and WILL sit on my ass forever.

You can just do hobbies that don't cost much BTW.

Lifting weights, programming, critiquing films and music, playing instruments($300 for a guitar and practice with online shit)

That doesnt matter. The concept that everyone NEEDS to earn their living is actually a modern and quite backwards phenomenon.
if just 5% of the population decides on their own to be productive that will be an overall net benefit... 95% of the population can be leeches, it doesnt matter as long as they buy stuff.

Innocent user, meet drugs and alcohol. Drugs and alcohol, meet innocent user. Never assume the rest of the populace has the same intentions as yourself.

Imagine how lazy the average person is. Half of everyone is lazier than that.

Good.

Now this is something finally going right. For once I can actually live well

I fucking hate working. I want a NEET gf and NEET friends where we all hang out every single day and pool our basic income bucks to buy cool things for our tree fort

the leeches shouldn't be paid in money. they should only be paid in food and shelter. if they want a car or leather boots they go out and work for them.

> everything is a Statist conspiracy!!!1!!1
Nice libertardian meme you got there.

>the highest average standard of living ever in history is "a quite backwards phenomenon"

by all means, we should return to the days when the king gave the serfs a meager stipend to survive on

Or... Rob and steal for them

Give us what we demand and we will live peacefully.

NEET gangs are an unnecessary plague on the world, but they can become necessary if our demands aren't met.

this is fine, happy trails.
and of the tens of thousands of little troupes of NEETs having fun one of you will in your fun, come up with something amazing that benefits everyone in some way.

it is economically inefficient to govern the distribution which is why welfare is broken in the first place.

Are Americans the only people on Earth who get that governments are not benevolent and all-loving and totally not corrupt?

so how does a ubi "pilot" work? some Chosen people get money, while I pay? how is that different than welfare?

I don't think any of the things you listed are sitting on your ass. You can turn those things into careers if you keep doing them long enough. Athlete, musician, programmer, journalist.

The idea is that people will be capable of making what they will of their lives. If you stick all the poor people in hotels and you feed them, they'll be stuck in an environment of low-achievement.

I guess but I don't have any wishes to.

When you make it a career you stop doing it how you want and when you want.

Americans are the only ones where people not part of the aristocracy don't get that they can become politicians, that the government is made of citizens, and that taxes are used to provide services that no other individual or institution can or would do.

>universal basic income
>universal
i dont know the specifics of their program but a universal basic income is meant to be given to everyone* (*may include checking birthdates, to give children different amounts than adults)

>implying Canada isnt an environment of low achievement
You Cacucks are so poor and unmotivated the government is literally paying you to keep living there. Pathetic

They do it in towns, cities and counties. The Mincome experiment in the 70s was in the city of Dauphin, Manitoba. Everyone who lived there got a basic income over the course of 2 years and they collected data from it.

It's not self-selecting. Everyone in X place is part of the experiment. The point is watching how the program works on a societal level.

>implying Canada isnt an environment of low achievement
Less so than some shithole like West Virginia. Sure, we're not Jew York or Silicon Valley, but that's because we're a smaller country.

They've done pilot programs like this before in North America (Canada & USA).

They've also failed miserably every time.
Sure there was measurable benefits from a UBI, for example women went back to the kitchen.
However every time it's been tried, just like socialism, the system burns through more money than what was available.

I'm skeptical about the government's motivation on this. What I heard last is that they will be restricted to Native Canadian communities for the experiment. Has anyone heard this as well?

My viewpoint: the real motivation for the UBI experiment in Canada is to see if UBI can politically neutralize the myriad of problems in Native communities. So, they'd be able to scrap the government programs and politics around tribal negotiations, buy them off and wash their hands of the whole thing.

So, before anyone starts booking their plane ticket out to Ontario, consider the possibility that there's zero real intention of making this for all citizens.

I've read that you need to be below some income level to qualify, so it's not ubi at all just welfare with a different name

Yes because they'll microwave those burgers with such gusto at 15/hr vs 8

Delusional Lazy NEETS

Ok, so that says it all then. They're not even trying a UBI at all.

Do not criticize Best Virginia

>However every time it's been tried, just like socialism, the system burns through more money than what was available.

No fucking shit.

Ontario is the most in debt subnational in the world. We literally have no money to sustain what we currently have and yet we're planning on extending more of these retarded programs.

Whatever, I don't give a fuck I'm going down with the ship, watching it all burn.

I'm just stacking fucking guap right now until it all crashes and I dip to Goa or some shit

>no one can sit on their ass forever
You seriously underestimate your fellow man...

>entrepreneurship will sky-rocket.
You mean drug dealing.

>NEET gangs
LARPers arent that scary though

>but that's because we're a smaller country.
Your so low achievement that you couldn't be bothered to google if you were right tor not... Canada is bigger by 110,000 km

Lazy ass leaf

Not just government studies, you liebertarian clown.

>kings gave serfs a stipend

I dont think you know how feudalism worked friend.

>not being exploited by Jews = drug dealing

>buy cool things for our tree fort
Literally the start of the NEET economy powered by basic income, kek
I love it.

yall already did this

>he thinks the "jews" will magically disappear once everyone starts getting money for doing nothing

There's a reason Ontario is the most indebt sub-national in the world.

IF basic income DOES come, this will be the nail in the coffin.

you're missing the point you dunce. people making 15/hr can buy luxuries and contribute to the economy whereas people making 8/hr have to at the very least double up just to barely make rent and basic subsistence.

he's obviously talking about GDP you pedantic faggot

can someone fill me in on what this is? I've never heard anything about it

nvm just found some news links.

If it happened to me like right now in my current situation? I would still go forward with my potential simple min wage job (I have an interview tomorrow) and really wouldn't take that extra money for granted, maybe save it even as some kind of backup if the job didn't work out after awhile. I have to find my real purpose. But I'm American, this isn't a scenario that would really happen here.

And what makes you think those luxuries wouldn't increase in price. This system would never work.
>hand everyone basic income
>landlords and stores etc all raise prices to be higher than basic income

Basically the idea is that with jobs becoming more scarce due to automation, the goverment gives all citizens a "basic income" that allows them to not starve/die out if unemployed.

It basically scraps most other welfare types in favor of giving out a check to everyone. It's considered a far more efficient approach because instead of having a government agency that requires hundreds of bureaucrats and other expenses to decide who gets what welfare and when, everyone simply gets an identical amount of money to live off of.

Other benefits include people having the time to set up their own businesses, more time for child-rearing, opportunity to continue some education or learn a skill. It also increases what's called the "velocity of money" meaning that in our service economy, more money being spend day to day increases the demand for goods, and thus grows the economy as a whole.

This will just even more wealth flight to more friendly tax environments.

But sure, go ahead and bring in the NEET tax Ontario I'm sure it will go well.

Where do you think that money has to come from? I can't see this system working.

Ill be taking my "basic income" cheques and buying physical gold and silver while I too go down with the ship.
See you after on the rich side of the fence user.

Someone needs to edit Arnie's "GET TO DA CHOPPER!"

with Ben (Shalom) Bernanke's face superimposed over his head. Something tells me it is going to be very pertinent going forward.

just like every government program, it comes from taxes.
The system would work because it's far cheaper to administer than the current welfare system, which has dozens of different agencies with staff and infrastructure that would be eliminated and replaced with a singular basic income. People who actually crunched the numbers (at least for the US) found that by eliminating all non-healthcare welfare programs (SS, unemployment, food stamps, housing benefits etc.) and either raising taxes slightly or cutting some of the military budget it is entirely doable.

from what I know, welfare doesnt give people a lot of money to begin with, almost barely enough for basic necessities. Im just wondering what a weekly check size would be.

I guess the issue is that conservatives don't really care (in the usa) about anyone but themselves.

majority of people on food stamps and welfare smoke and drink.
Please tell me why we should give a fuck?

I've read it's about $900 / month or less. None of this plan remotely resembles a UBI plan.

First, as someone said, it's not for everyone, so there goes "universal".

Secondly, I'd be surprised if anyone in Ontario can live on $900 a month, so there goes another tenant of UBI.

It's just glorified welfare.

if it's seen as a means to end existing social programs, I'd be curious to see how that plays out.

>inb4 Laquisha spends her 900 on a tv and cries to the media when the government is no longer paying for other expenses

well for one presumably with a basic income crime would go down. Less homeless bums on the streets as well. Also more time for parents to spend with their children, getting involved with their education etc.

Another reason is people with basic income can still contribute to the economy by buying shit. If you own a company that makes TVs, for instance, people having a UBI would be a big benefit to your own sales.

but really you should care more because automation is making more and more people useless as time goes on. large number of permanently unemployed people is a recipe for disaster, and the alternatives that people might turn to out of desperation (communism etc.) are a lot worse

And where exactly is that statistic? And even if so , if you are freaking miserable I don't blame a lot of people for turning to that, even though they shouldn't just to feel better for once.

I see it with my own eyes you cuck

Do you meet every single person and know their story on a personal level and have cameras on them to verify that they are drinking and smoking? No of course you don't that would be fucking stupid.

idc what their story is. The money they receive should be regulated so that it cant be spent on useless shit.

I don't need cameras since I see it with my own eyes. I have a few friends from highschool that live in the "geared to income housing" section of town and the majority of the people that live in that complex are fucking welfare losers who blow all their money on drugs, alcohol and smokes.

You're just trying to justify it because you yourself are most likely a leach on society.

>$900 bucks a month
kek
That's maybe half a rent payment in toronto.

Actually I'm not a leach if you read what I said earlier. I would still be trying for the job I'm trying for. Nor have I ever taken any goverment money outside student loan/grant money that I'm slowly paying back.

Keep working, put UBI into your TFSA trading account, laugh at the poor when you move to your mansion in a non-sinking province / state / nation.

>That's maybe half a rent payment in toronto.

Not really.

You can rent a bachelor apartment in the nicest part of Toronto for $1500/month.

Buy even more silver and cryptocurrency every month, and get more expensive, fancy canned goods for my happening-storage.

Inflation

that doesn't work, and thats one of the main reasons basic income is suggested in the first place

In which case the govt gets the lotto money, or the rims place gets the money,and orders more rims from the manufacturer, who then puts people to work making rims.

this guy gets it, even though this whole idea is fucking retarded to begin with, But might as well make the best with the hand you're dealt

Why doesn't it work?

dole

>if just 5% of the population decides on their own to be productive that will be an overall net benefit... 95% of the population can be leeches, it doesnt matter as long as they buy stuff.
People like you should be round up and shot. Lazy cunt.

probably the dumbest shit I've read all day

you're confusing neets who larp in the park and niggers who shoot eachother

Well, if implemented in full, UBI gets rid of every social program, including social security.

It is for everyone (universal) so there's no restriction except citizenship. So, no matter how young or old you are, how rich or how poor, you will all get the same amount.

It's intrinsic and so cannot be taken or reduced in any way.

And here's the most controversial and difficult point:

It must be enough to support a single person completely.

I believe these are the three tenants. If any one of these are compromised, the system cannot be considered UBI.

Totally agree.

My hometown (Hamilton, ON) has been pinpointed as one of the cities where they will first try this experiment out. Hopefully I can be giving some updates next year. I'm hoping the number will be closer to the 1k range than the 700-850 that I've heard floating around.

>It must be enough to support a single person completely.

Here's another issue to think about, at least in the USA , probably true of different areas of Canada too, the variations in the cost of living in a specific area. Living in NYC vs living in a small town in Alabama vs anything in between. Do we determine this based on city or state averages?

Same fag from above

Way to move the goal posts. You deserve no further responses as you can't even formulate a valid one for your original argument.

Exactly right. That's another issue with these principles

Yeah Idk how they are going to get over that problem

>move to ontario
>act like a huge nigger
>crash the plan
>save the world

Isn't most of our manufacturing done overseas tho?

I mean we're not making any money off oil and Ontario has a dying manufacturing sector.

Yeah, in the not too distant past if you couldn't grow enough food to feed your family on your own land you just starved to death. Tradesmen were a rarity, though they would starve too if their trade was redundant.

if you have guaranteed income you would make your hobbies a career on your own terms

depends how much your hobbies cost. There's a reason why a lot of people play video games. It's the most inexpensive hobby.

Ever see the grocery store on food stamp day. People with kids buying bread and ketchup like crazy.
The lotto Line is wrap around.