There are people on this board RIGHT NOW who think having a credit card is inherently bad

Debt is inherently bad, and buying a house or car in cash is alpha tier. Walk in there with a thick wad of cash and watch their face.

> b-but muh credit rating determines my place in society

Your fault for living in a third-world country that allows shit like that. Even China hasn't yet implemented people scoring like that. Most civilized countries do not have that.

> b-but I get 1% cashback
And they charge 3% to the merchants. Who do you think covers that, hm?

Decent merchants give you the discount when you pay in a way that doesn't give them costs.

>Debt is inherently bad

No it isn't. You can get a favorable loan which allows you to invest your money to earn more than the interest.

>buying a house or car in cash is alpha tier. Walk in there with a thick wad of cash and watch their face

>Le it's alpha
Who gives a shit? Plus you'll never do that in your life anyway. People don't keep $30,000+ in cash, if by cash you mean EMT then that's not really that alpha

>And they charge 3% to the merchants. Who do you think covers that, hm?

You are not individually going to change the price the merchants charge. Do you think if you pay with cash you get a 3% discount on whatever it is you're buying?

>Decent merchants give you the discount

Name me literally 10 major ones

> No it isn't. You can get a favorable loan which allows you to invest your money to earn more than the interest.

That's a corner case, though with QE they're making it more common. It still runs the risk of your investment failing and you being on the hook.

Most people who get in debt do not do so to invest, but for stupid consumption or lack of patience.

> Do you think if you pay with cash you get a 3% discount on whatever it is you're buying?
Yes, in good shops.

> Name 10 major ones
Major ones mostly do not do so, though a big internet tech seller gives such discounts for using bitcoin. I forget their name.

It actually matters a fair amount, as it makes the transaction faster and more secure for the broker. Broker has an incentive for a quick transaction with minimal investment of time, as they are getting a percentage the drop is price is less to the broker than it is to the owner, but the broker is higher information, and skill, and so relied on.

it is the same as buying as a non-citizen, lots of extra paperwork, extra liability, extra work for literally the almost same pay.

>That's a corner case, though with QE they're making it more common. It still runs the risk of your investment failing and you being on the hook.

No... no it's really not. In 1st world countries Credit is incredibly important. In fact it's one of the most important things to build in your 20's. It is used for so many things and you'll really feel the heat from not building it as you get older.

it gets you better loan terms, better credit cards, easier to rent apartments, easier to rent vehicles, easier to get business loans, etc. It's important as hell unless you mean to tell me none of that shit will ever be utilized by you.

>Major ones mostly do not do so, though a big internet tech seller gives such discounts for using bitcoin. I forget their name.

That's because it's off the books, so of course they welcome it.

The downsides of holding bitcoin far outweigh the negligible savings, however.

> Investing money you borrowed
Have fun killing yourself when you lose big, retard. People like you never think they're going to fail, until they do.

>Major ones mostly do not do so
So you're paying more to shop at small firms that don't benefit from economies of scale anyway.

Jesus you're daft.

> investing borrowed money
> not protected in any corporate form
> house equity non-existent

literally a bad day away from bankrupt.

>Have fun killing yourself when you lose big, retard. People like you never think they're going to fail, until they do.

Um. Are you from /pol/ or something?

You do know that's what tons of people do, right?

Even Literal millionaires and billionaires who can buy a whole city have "debt". They borrow money.

It doesn't get you any of those in a civilized country. Remember, murica is pretty much unique in credit scoring its citizens.

In a civilized country, they check your assets, income, and if you have any missed payments. Like they should. The incentives in murica to get in debt are ass-backwards and do not benefit the people.

Holy shit. This is the type of retard I'm talking about. That user isn't investing borrowed money, faggot. He's investing the money he DIDN'T spend on buying the house.

It's really fucking simple. If you happen to have 200k in cash, rather than purchase a house, you can get a mortgage with around 4% interest. If you invest what you don't pay monthly and receive 7% returns on fairly safe stock, then you have returns of approximately 6k a month, meaning you can pay your mortgage off with the interest you make on your invested money and have extra to spare.

>no true Scotsman

Poor form familia.

>It doesn't get you any of those in a civilized country.

Like which country?

As far as I know is the same here in Canada(my country), United States, UK and Australia.

Do you not consider the United States a civilized country? You are aware of its powerful economy and the fact that almost half of the world's millionaires reside in the United States, correct?

>In a civilized country, they check your assets, income, and if you have any missed payments

A credit score is the easiest method to quickly get a generally idea of how likely a person is to repay shit and how punctual and responsible he is.

Ignore this. I suck dicks. I meant 6k a year, and pay off the interest and have extra to spare, not pay off the mortgage.

> 99% of countries are sane
> that's somehow a no true scotsman argument, just because you live in the shit one

Alright, about to 2300 on a new PC for muh business. Getting a CC with 0% interest for 15 months. Have the cash, but plan on using the card instead and paying it off before next year. Bad idea?

Most of the EU do not have credit scores.

>Alright, about to 2300 on a new PC for muh business.

For what purpose?

What specs?

Most of the EU has a much lower GDP per capita and sucks ass for business

but, 6k a year might not be worth the security of losing the possible ability to hold the property without a mortgage, and then mortgage it at a later time. Depends on how much risk you want to take, and how much 6k means to you.

Need power for video/photo editing. Monitor is 450$ alone and there's about 100$ in taxes.

> your face when every country in Scandinavia has a lower corporate tax rate than US
> the countries consistently on top of tax rate listings

There's a reason for the Terex-Konecranes thing (if it goes through, Zoomlion poking).

Doesn't really explain how credit score is a bad system in any way.

I have built up a great score with minimal effort on my part, and no I have not paid any interest on anything

> fairly safe
Nice word use. I'm sure a thousand dead father's used it in their suicide notes explaning to their wives why they're $500k in debt

It incentivizes bad behavior in a system created to fuck you in the ass. It doesn't take a smart person to see it's a rigged game.

You've managed to play the game and not lose, that's good for you, but you're an exception, a minority. Do you not agree the game is rigged? Even if in your specific case you wouldn't be better off without it, though I doubt it.

hey I mean if they invested in good life insurance and were basically in the cuckshed anyway isn't it the nicest thing they could have done?

>It incentivizes bad behavior in a system created to fuck you in the ass

What system is that? I, nor any of the people who aren't fucking retards that I know have yet to experience any "ass fucking" thus far.

>It doesn't take a smart person to see it's a rigged game

Doesn't feel very rigged, did I just get lucky or something by magically paying off my bills on time?

>Do you not agree the game is rigged?

No I do not agree. In what way would it possibly be rigged? The fact that when you BORROW MONEY THAT ISN'T YOURS, you need to pay it back in *TIME THAT YOU HAVE AGREED ON WITH A CONTACT*? Because that doesn't seem very unfair to me.

It doesn't incentivize bad behavior

high balances or late payments will wreck your score

> What system is that?
The system of commonplace, everyday debt.

The 3% fee in everything is an example of hidden ass-fucking. The retards you see are just the top of the iceberg.

Let me ask: for a person who can live on their monthly paycheck, what possible reason is there to encourage them into debt? That's right, it benefits the credit company.

> The fact that when you BORROW MONEY THAT ISN'T YOURS, you need to pay it back

Again, I'm not speaking about debt rarely taken for a good purpose. I'm speaking of everyday debt, like buying groceries on credit, as well as consumption credit, for buying shit you do not need but have been made to want.

>buy groceries on cc card
>2% cash back
>pay off credit card before statement date
>no interest expense
>groceries were 2% cheaper

What's wrong with this?

>Buy it with credit.
>Pay it back with no interest charged
>Get 5% off of the purchase thanks to the rewards system with the credit card.
The only down side is that the card company is selling your spending habits.

>The system of commonplace, everyday debt.

I am not in any debt currently. Although my creditscore is great.

>Let me ask: for a person who can live on their monthly paycheck, what possible reason is there to encourage them into debt? That's right, it benefits the credit company.

Who said anything about debt?

Why do idiotic euros keep thinking Credit Card = debt? It's the same as using fucking cash or debit you idiot, you just pay it off by end of the month, or even set it to auto-pay from your chequing account.

No debt involved, it's simply an easier, safer, more convenient way to pay.

>I'm speaking of everyday debt, like buying groceries on credit, as well as consumption credit, for buying shit you do not need but have been made to want

This is shit that belongs on a militant socialist website.

That's not "everyday debt", that's not debt at all you dumbfuck. That's simply a method of payment.

You buy things you can afford, with money you already have, but instead of paying it up front you pay for it when it shows up on your balance in a few days from when you spent it.

The no true Scotsman came from your usage of "civilized nation" to exclude any country that uses hte US system of credit.

Idiot.

Opening a credit card does not mean you go into debt dumdum

It's a line of credit

If you index it, the "fairly" simply means "wait." You will always make money in time when you bet on the market. We're talking about averages here. Some years will have much more than 7%, others will have much less.

LIST the fucking stores that charge the individual 3% more for using their credit card than they would if they paid in cash. I want to know what grocery store you go to that does this, and I want you to look me straight in the eye and tell me that you're better off shopping there than shopping at a large supermarket chain with a 2% cash back card. At that point, you have 1% wiggle room. Your store cannot exceed 1% in its prices from a supermarket taking advantage of economies of scale. I really doubt it mate.

he's a dumb fuck. any major retailer, even small ones, charges the same for cash or credit

gas stations are an exception though

Man Japanese businesses have a culture of having absolutely 0 debt, huge companies and small companies and they all do fine

>he's a dumb fuck. any major retailer, even small ones, charges the same for cash or credit

Kind of.

My VPN provider gives a huge discount for paying with bitcoin rather than any other method for which he would need to claim on his taxes

> I have short-term debt and do not understand it is debt

See what happens when you forget to pay in time, or don't have enough to do so.

> all these muricans thoroughly brainwashed to believe debt isn't debt if it's short term

> what's wrong with this?

You pay for it, and even with that 2% you're worse off. The prices are 3% higher than they would be without credit cards, thus you're essentially paying yourself back, and giving the extra 1% to the CC company.

>See what happens when you forget to pay in time, or don't have enough to do so

Why the fuck would I forget to pay in time? Do I have shit for brains or something? Also as i said you can set it to auto-pay.

>or don't have enough to do so

As I very clearly mentioned. I buy things I already have the money to afford. At no point in time do I spend more than I have to pay off at that exact moment.

If go buy something, they charge me the same price if I pay with credit or cash. Not even gas stations charge me differently.

they are missing out on so much. imagine if they took on debt, used it to invest, and then had enough not only to cover the interest but to line their pockets? it must be slow trying to save up for a new warehouse.

and what does that say to their stakeholders? "oh, we don't even know if we'll be fiscally solvent in 5 years. better avoid the debt collector!" yeah, a great endorsement of the continued success of your organization.

the fact is that debt is the economy. the assumption is that this wonderful system will continue to grow exponentially. you can continue to take on debt because you will continue to make profits. and interest is almost non-existent at every level right now! even adults need to consider how they can USE debt. mindlessly buying blenders on QVC with a credit card and getting raped by 25% APR isn't fiscal responsibility, but that's not the only way an individual interacts with debt. would you spend $30,000 of your hard earned liquid cash on a car when you can instead pay it back over five years for 1.9-0(!!!)% interest? think of what you could do with, say, $25,000 after making a down payment on the car. i mean, are you suddenly going to stop working? let me know when you save up the few million you need to remove yourself from the labor force until you die.

if you live cash only you are limiting yourself significantly.

debt is like a firearm or a rattlesnake. even the meanest snakecharmer or marksman understands just how dangerous the things they interact with are. however, they aren't SCARED of snakes and guns. they look that mean shit in the eye and say "you don't own me, I OWN YOU!" same with debt and your personal finances. debt doesn't happen to you. debt is part of your plan!

Name me one major vendor that gives out cash discounts. Random mom and pop restaurants do not count.

He's just baiting. He refuses to name any actual places because he knows he's retarded.

He cannot reply. /pol/ autist or euro cuck got btfo

Are you fucking retarded? I've never seen a more incorrect statement in my entire life. Japan is and has been for the past 60 years NOTORIOUS for having debt-heavy companies (Kaisha). Japanese companies are far more likely to finance via banks as opposed to equity, which is how companies are typically financed in the US. In fact, for many large companies they even have representatives from their borrowing bank on their board of directors.

Debt is good if the value of what you spent it on goes up all the time. YES/NO ??

Is this an debt issue more of an IDEOLOGICAL stalemate more than a simple economic issue?

Are we stuck because we can't reconcile IDEOLOGICAL differences on how debt is managed?

>credit card

Not everybody is American here you retarded fuck.

Have fun with your little thrown bone perks that nobody uses or cares about. Hooray for your extended returns period or whatever you massive pleb. I just use the money I have, no worrying about paying shit on time or any of that clusterfuck, simplify your life.

lmao have fun being poor for the rest of your life.

This is a retarded way to look at it. If the prices are 3% higher already, then you're paying 103% of the price when you pay in cash as opposed to only paying 101% of the price if you use a 2% cashback credit card.

Even if it WERE true that everything was 3% more expensive because of credit cards, by NOT using a credit card you're only hurting yourself further.

The type of investent you borrow money for determines the outcome.
what are things you both think as a good investment to borrow money for
House, land, shares
antiques art
race horse
up and coming bands
business ideas
internet apps or computer related stuff
To the non investor user,what do you think is a good investment if any? Also investors if a person gets a loan to buy a sports car this is not really investing is it?

>Not everybody is American here
Dont worry I wont hold that against you, bro.

>hurr durr just invest it
fuck off, goddamn bank shills
your piddly returns mean nothing after the mortgage interest and taxes, especially because you have to index it for 30 fucking years for whatever return you do get

that is of course a moot point, seeing as the only reason to buy an American mudhut is because you knocked up your retarded obese cow of girlfriend

rent, move around, increase your salary, and save up to retire on
fuck houses

>Pay rent for 45 years instead of paying a mortgage for 20 that has tax deductible interest, loads of other tax deductions, and allows you to own an appreciating asset, is considered a smart choice
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

>living in the same place more than 7 years
>paying property taxes, HOA, tending to the lawn, living in flyover suburbs your entire life
>just so you can itemize your deductions

what a miserable human being

>Paying more than a mortgage in your rent
>Just for the "luxury" of being able to move around
>As if he will be in a career or with a business that has him moving this much
Even if you were with a company that required you to constantly move, you'd be a fool to not own a home unless you worked for a shitty company that wouldn't buy your house from you.

You're not working for one of those, are you?

I mean since then, after all that shit went down some companies made it a mandate to never repeat and no longer borrow money and from what i know its a growing trend

Sure. It's growing, but relative to US companies they're still more debt-heavy. US companies typically have tiny debt/asset ratios.

no im in tech
why would anyone stay in the same company their whole life

While that guy's a moron, the mortgage interest deduction really is small as fuck.

sorry, i was reading down to up. No, you're much bigger of a moron than he is. Why the fuck do Europoors have such poor knowledge of finance?

Maybe this is a new normal after the BOOMING years for a country it then beccomes the japanese story constantly fighting deflation is that correct?...is it the same thing USA is going thru... ???

The US is not going through the same thing Japan is. Not by a long shot. We allow immigration so we aren't actually having a demographic crisis crippling our economy.

inflation/deflation related to immigration you mean? are there other factors that effect it.inflation levels

Another point:
>Fiat currency is despised by Socialists
>Gold backed currency is their choice.
>Both gold and FIAT are embraced by capitalists equally

inflation and deflation aren't very important differences between the US and Japan, user. Just symptoms. Japan has an aging population. Their workforce (and by extension consumer body) is constantly shrinking. The US allows immigrants and as a result our work force and consumer body has remained stable.

Yeah I have read they (japan) really don't allow ANY immigration at all.

It's about as insular a society as they come.

what do you think about this idea

>small as fuck
Not property tax, though.
In some places, it's worth it to itemize just for that.

Having $60,000 cash on-hand won't get you a home.

Yes kids, even drug dealers have Amex.

> open 9k cc
> xfer to brokerage account
> 9k becomes 10k thx job reporto

I can smell the losses.

> bitcoin

Actually the discount is brought to you impart by volatility and 0 fees.

At least that's why I offer one.

I don't think it's so much a matter of socialist vs capitalist as it is what works best given what everyone else is doing. Lots of libertardians think the gold standard is better as well, so it's not limited to socialist. At the end of the day if every other country was on the gold standard, it would work. If just one major economy cheats and goes to fiat (like Britain did during the depression), then everyone else should also go to fiat.

> what are time zones
Murica education, everyone.

You are correct, you are being fucked in most murican places like that. However, the answer is not to accept the scalping and pay 101%, it's to effect change or take your money elsewhere.

> Even if it WERE true that everything was 3% more expensive because of credit cards

How can you disbelieve that? Do you not know any merchants? Or do you somehow believe they will take the 3% CC fee from their profits instead of passing it to customers?
Protip: that's not how capitalism works. Everyone who can fuck you in the ass in a hidden way will do so.

> by NOT using a credit card you're only hurting yourself further.

You are correct if you have to shop at that place, but that is essentially saying you accept playing a rigged game just because you can lose less than the guy next to you.

You're both losing.

What are you even arguing? None of us individually can affect how merchants price against CC fees.

So back to reality, not using a CC and instead using a debit card you lose out on

Better fraud protection: if my debit card gets used without my permission I'm out money until they refund it. With a credit card they cancel my card and mail me a new new out. If someone steals my wallet I cancel it and I'm not out any cash.

In America at least, having a long history of credit is a good thing. So by paying my card off in full I establish that I'm worth lending money too, and I don't pay a cent in interest.

Rewards. I've accrued a nice chunk of change with certain card rewards.

So the only reason not to use a credit card in lieu of cash or debit is if you personally can't handle a credit card, you're buying drugs, or you get some sort of discount.

You can ramble on and on about the ethics or implications all you want but everyone is doing themselves a disservice buy not utilizing credit cards to their advantage.

because Veeky Forums is full of upper middle class teenagers living in the basements of their parents McMansion with no real world experience.

I think its hinged on a persons thoughts about Governments,Banks,GOLD versus FIAT currency mixed with some old fashioned views
or modern progressive ones but in what order I don't know. I POSTED THIS EARLIER BUT BUT I DON'T THINK IT IS ACCURATE JUST A THOUGHT

>throwing away easy 1 to 5 leverage, the only reason to buy a house

But mortages have lower interests than a competent investment has as its ROI. Were mortage interest +8% instead of 2%, that would be true.

Despite what you think, investment isnt a roulette table where you either lose or win. Averafe investor makes some % on their investments every single year, and the ROI that is sought is relative to risk - investing on borrowed money is usually done on a more conservative portfolio to avoid major loses.

>being a shit investor and using index funds
Ok, so you have a crystal ball and can outplay the markets, right? Post your track record then or stfu. Also, post the fundamental and technical analysis you do. Even WB says average Joe should invest in an index, I trust that guy over fag on Veeky Forums.

>Debt is inherently bad, and buying a house or car in cash is alpha tier. Walk in there with a thick wad of cash and watch their face.

This does not work. Don't you think IRS will be all over your ass if you actually try to physically buy a car or house with stacks of money?

>If you invest what you don't pay monthly and receive 7% returns on fairly safe stock
>fairly safe stock

And what magical stock would that be?

Maybe not so much for house buying but definitely when purchasing a vehicle cash is king.