Is Sumerian really a language isolate, Veeky Forums? Or is there a deliberate vaccuum among Indo-European historians to distort history in their favor?
>In the early days of Assyriology, Sumerian was commonly believed to belong to the Ural-Altaic language phylum. This view originated with three leading Assyriologists, Edward Hincks, Henry Rawlinson and Jules Oppert, and other big names in early Assyriology such as Friedrich Delitzsch supported it. The Frenchman François Lenormant, who wrote on the subject in 1873-78, found Sumerian most closely related to Finno-Ugric, while also containing features otherwise attested only in Turkish and other Altaic languages. >Attempts to connect Sumerian with other languages have not been successful, however, and after 157 years, Sumerian still remains linguistically isolated. This being so, there is every reason to take another look at the old Ural-Altaic -hypothesis, for it has never been properly investigated. In the 19th century, Sumerian grammar and lexicon were as yet too imperfectly known to be successfully compared with any languages, while all more recent comparisons suffer from the lack of Assyriological or linguistic expertise and are hence for the most part worthless. This does not mean, however, that they are all garbage: at least 194 of them seem perfectly acceptable both phonologically and semantically. >The wind turned in the early 1880s, however, as two prominent Finno-Ugrists, August Ahlqvist and Otto Donner, reviewed Lenormant's work and concluded that Sumerian was definitely not a Ural-Altaic language. This was widely considered a death-blow to the Sumerian-Ural-Altaic hypothesis, and since then Assyriologists have generally rejected it. Typically, when a Hungarian scholar in 1971 tried to reopen the discussion in the journal Current Anthropology, a few linguists welcomed the idea but the reaction of the two Assyriologists consulted was scornfully negative.
>To date, I have systematically gone through about 75 per cent of the Sumerian vocabulary and identified over 1700 words and morphemes that can be reasonably associated with Uralic and/or Altaic etyma, allowing for regular sound changes and semantic shifts. Somewhat surprisingly, words with possible Altaic etymologies constitute only a small minority (about seven per cent) of the total, and it is unlikely that the picture will essentially change by the time the project has been finished. Although a close relationship of Sumerian with the Altaic family as a whole thus seems excluded, a genetic relationship with Turkish seems possible, as most of the matches are with Turkic languages, and they are basic words and grammatical morphemes also found in Uralic languages.
Jacob Ramirez
Indo-European historians do have a tendency of distorting history in their favor despite all the evidence to the contrary, Scythia being one really good example, with the Iranian origin of Scythians based on a few words scribbled down by Greeks.
Bentley Clark
bump
Isaiah Myers
We wuz Sumerians n shit, those mothafuckin INDOEUROPEANISTS are keepin' us down!
Nathan Richardson
I get it, you're pretending that Indo-Europeans are an ethnic group with a sense of identity like your """"education"""" is a collection of random things you read in the internet! Good one, OP! Death to the eternal Indo-European!
Kevin Baker
>blue eyes
They were clearly Aryan.
Jaxson Sanchez
>OP watched extra credit today.
Levi Powell
Finns are the most blue-eyed population on Earth. None of those are arguments. There is a clear Pro-Indo-European bias in the academia, to claim otherwise is to mock intelligence. See
Robert Johnson
Tell me about the evidence of Scythians not being Iranian
John Reed
The fact their language has no known relation to their neighbours does contribute to their mystique. So much is lost to history, though.
Jordan Gonzalez
>Finns are the most blue-eyed population on Earth.
Since when?
Honest question.
Lincoln Reed
Look for maps of blue eyes diffusion you tard.
Cooper Hall
What year did they develop the mutation? Did it first catch on in Finland, or was it imported there by migrants?
It's an honest question. I'm not asking whether Finland has blue eyes, I'm asking since when.
Michael Richardson
The mythological similarities between Ancient Hungarians and Scythians, like the legend of the white stag, attests to the theory of the ethnogenesis of Hungarians taking place in Scythia. Genetics also attests to this, with the Madjar tribe in contemporary Kazakhstan being one of the closest relatives of Hungarians, through shared paternal lineage. Hungarian core vocabulary mainly consists of Ural-Altaic words, like vér (meaning blood, of Uralic origin) and anya (meaning mother, of Turkic origin). Historical records also support this, with the dominant tribes in Scythia being Ural-Altaics. >They are a large and powerful nation: they have all deep blue eyes, and bright red hair. There is a city in their territory, called Gelonus, which is surrounded with a lofty wall, thirty furlongs (τριήkοντα σταδίων = c. 5.5 km) each way, built entirely of wood. All the houses in the place and all the temples are of the same material. Here are temples built in honour of the Grecian gods, and adorned after the Greek fashion with images, altars, and shrines, all in wood. There is even a festival, held every third year in honour of Bacchus, at which the natives fall into the Bacchic fury. For the fact is that the Geloni were anciently Greeks, who, being driven out of the factories along the coast, fled to the Budini and took up their abode with them. They still speak a language half Greek, half Scythian. >The 1911 Britannica surmises that the Budini were Finno-Ugric, of the branch now represented by the Udmurts and Komis.[6][better source needed] Edgar V. Saks identifies Budini as the Finnic Votic people.
The theory of their Iranian origin, however, is based on a few words written down by Greeks.
Ryder Powell
They were referred as "black headed" in Akkadian record, what ever that means. Could be "face", could be "hair" could be they were brown with an amount of melanin which would have a suntan make them look particularly dark. Anyway, maybe this is some indication their origin.
Isaac Edwards
Could be identifiable paint adornment.
Landon Kelly
They developed in Europe from the Western hunter gatherers:
"The data is clearly pointing to the idea that most of the presence of blue eyes in Europe derives from pre Neolithic and pre Indo-European speaking Western Hunter Gatherers, who are uniformly blue eyed. The data also points that natural selection has been favoring an increase in light skin over the past 5,000 in most areas of Europe, peaking in contemporary Northern Europe. "
Jace Walker
And then spread to Indo-Europeans?
Jordan Nguyen
Yes, the very first Indo European speakers, the Yamna people, were darker than Southern Europeans:
"So as it turns out, prehistoric North Pontic Steppe populations buried in Kurgan mounds are overwhelmingly dark pigmented (by modern Eurocentric standards). The populations of this area and time period are the most favored among linguists today to have been the speakers of the Proto Indo-European language (this hypothesis is known as the Kurgan hypothesis). "
"The table above represents frequencies found in ancient samples compared to modern Ukrainian ones. The dataset for the ancient sample is a combined pooling of both the Yamnaya culture and the succeeding Catacomb culture from the same area. Note the SNP rs12912832 [OCA2] in the HERC2 gene which predicts blue eyes is present in 65% of modern Ukrainians, but was only present in 16% of the ancient samples. Also note that the ancient samples have much lower frequencies in all three SNPs which predict light pigmentation including SNPs in the TYR gene which are associated with blondism."
Gabriel Torres
"Another article released a year later basically revealed the same thing, although this study focused the pigmentation of many ancient European populations in comparison to modern ones including pre Neolithic Western Hunter Gatherers and early Neolithic Farmers in Europe. But the study did also include a sample set from the Yamnaya culture which is identified by most linguists as the speakers of the Proto Indo-European language on the eve of their great expansion. Only 11% of the Yamnaya in this sample from the Samar Oblast region carry alleles for light eyes, as they are noticeably darker pigmented in skin and eyes than contemporary Southern Europeans. See data below."
I think it's great how early dark-skinned humans had blue eyes. Scandinavians are a bunch of niggers no matter the skin color. It's about time they came face-to-face with their ancestors. An apology would be great.
Nathaniel James
I tend to buy the Kurgan hypothesis, but like everything from so far back, we could find out we're completely misinterpreting data if we find something new.
So it seems like blue eyes as a mutation established itself in the ancestors of the Finnish, and spread to the later settlers of Europe.
Would their skin-tone indicate the first Indo-Europeans weren't farmers? Pastoralists and hunter-gatherers/gardeners tend to keep their darker skin longer in high latitudes.
And even if Sumer is related to Uralic languages, it could still be that they aren't related to Uralic peoples all that strongly. We know languages and culture spread independently of alleles, and that alleles can spread independent of each other.
Kayden Collins
Oh, so you're a Hungarian nationalist. I was assuming an Erdogan bot.
Sorry about the whole Trianon thing, the West fucked up with that one
Oliver Lewis
>legend of the white stag Where in Scythian mythology do you find a white stag?
>Hungarian core vocabulary mainly consists of Ural-Altaic words, like vér (meaning blood, of Uralic origin) and anya (meaning mother, of Turkic origin). Historical records also support this, with the dominant tribes in Scythia being Ural-Altaics. What does this have to do with the Scythian language?
>The theory of their Iranian origin, however, is based on a few words written down by Greeks. There is more than just some words written down by Greeks en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#Corpus
Henry Stewart
so they could have had black skin and blue eyes?
Juan Johnson
The primary written source is Herodotus' accounts which were founded on conversations with the Greeks living by the Black Sea, who traded with Scythians and moved among them.
Herodotus basically says that the Scythians came from the steppe, fleeing other steppe peoples (the Massagate) before settling North of the Black Sea.
They would subsequently raid Southwards through the Cacausus mountains (in pursuit of another group of nomads, the Cimmerians, who gave them the slip and settled in Anatolia) and give the settled Mesopotamian and Iranian civilisations a lot of grief.
Matthew Anderson
Furthermore, Scythian customs are much like those of other steppe people and nomads; scalps and drinking cups made from skulls as war trophies, and women warriors.
Luis Watson
>The claim that the Scythians were "Iranian", and therefore Indo-European, is based on the highly questionable interpretation of a few names and words transmitted by Greek sources. The evidence indicates that there were non-Indo-European peoples in Iran and Turan long before the appearance of Indo-Europeans in those regions. Some of these pre-Indo-European peoples may have later become "Indo-Europeanized" to some extent. The Scythians, Cimmerians, Sarmatians, Medes, and Parthians were therefore not originally Indo-European, they were Turanians. Indo-European linguistics has a tendency to claim as "Indo-European" many ancient peoples who were in fact originally non-Indo-European, but may have later become "Indo-Europeanized" as a result of ethno-linguistic convergence and hybridization.
Dylan Phillips
>steppe = non-iranian Wat
The entire steppe from Hungary to the Tarim Basin used to be Iranian
Also Germanics and Celts were recorded making drinking cups from skulls too
Luis Ramirez
It is a murky business. It doesn't help that Greeks threw 'Scythian' around as a general term.
As an aside, Herodotus says that there was a line of Scythian kings in the Mede kingdom for 28 years, a generation.
I guess we should all take away from this that ancient people moved a lot.
Jace Perez
>Where in Scythian mythology do you find a white stag? The stag is of great importance in both Hungarian and Scythian mythologies. Also, one theory ties the religion of Hungarians to that of the Huns and Scythians due to similar or even identical legends to the Hungarian origin myth. >Scythian religion is assumed to have been related to the earlier Proto-Indo-Iranian religion, and to have influenced later Slavic, Hungarian and Turkic mythologies. Some hypothetical proto-religion isn't proof of anything, what is known for certain is that Hungarian mythology is closest to that of Scythians. >What does this have to do with the Scythian language? Seeing as how the ethnogenesis of Hungarians most likely took place in Scythia, them loaning words primarily from Ural-Altaics suggests that they were the dominant tribes. >There is more than just some words written down by Greeks Read this article: borissoff.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/was-scythian-an-iranian-language/ >The entire steppe from Hungary to the Tarim Basin used to be Iranian That is a fantasy.
Hunter Turner
The hungarian stag was important, yes, but the scythians only vaguely revered her, she was believes to help the dead pass. The white stag was nowhere near as important as hungarian counterpart.
This could lead you to belive she was simply asimilated into the mythology.
Austin Lee
>The stag is of great importance in both Hungarian and Scythian mythologies Again, where are you getting this? All that's known about Scythian mythology is some theonyms and and a story about 3 brothers, which doesn't mention a white stag or any stag.
>Seeing as how the ethnogenesis of Hungarians most likely took place in Scythia, them loaning words primarily from Ural-Altaics suggests that they were the dominant tribes. Hungarians first appear in history long after the steppe was Turkified.
>but the scythians only vaguely revered her, she was believes to help the dead pass Source? If that's true it's probably of Indo-European since the Celts also believed that
"The Scythians had some reverence for the stag, which is one of the most common motifs in Scythian art. Possibly the swift animal was believed to speed the spirits of the dead on their way, which perhaps explains the curious antlered headdresses found on horses buried at Pazyryk"
Matthew Carter
>Ural-Altaic language phylum stopped reading there. there's no such thing.
Aaron Rivera
>All that's known about Scythian mythology is some theonyms and and a story about 3 brothers Again, the Hungarian origin myth is about brothers too that went to look for a mythical white stag and is almost identical in that regard to the Scythian and Hunnish ones. >Hungarians first appear in history long after the steppe was Turkified. The implication there is that it was originally Iranic, of which there is no proof of.
Jayden Jackson
Where is the white stag in the Scythian one?
Landon Johnson
I guess Indo-European doesn't exist either, in that case. It's literally on par with Altaic as a language family in terms of compactness, yet it's widely recognized as a real language family while Altaic isn't. This attests to the hypocrisy and bias of Indo-European linguists.
Isaiah Jenkins
Indo-European is the most well-studied and well-established language family in the world. It's impossible to deny.
Jordan Reed
>there's no such thing. You're fucking retarded. Linguists universally agree on the existence of a common Ural-Altaic typology; this, along with the shared pronouns and structure and varying degrees of shared vocabulary do point to the existence of an Ural-Altaic phylum.
Ian Gonzalez
Mongolian and Turkish have more in common than Swedish and Sanskrit.
Zachary Allen
So was the belief in a flatearth and that earth was the center of the universe, but i think we can agree that once the bias was fought with unbiased researched we came to the right conclusion?
Caleb Rivera
You should re-read what I wrote.
Gavin Powell
The "Altaic" family doesn't have enough solid evidence to be accepted in the linguistic community, let alone this ancient superfamily.
Sebastian Torres
Because turkish and mongolian seperated much later than sanskrit and the indoeuropean languages.
Thomas Wood
What do you mean compactness?
Matthew Clark
>turkish and mongolian seperated More like joined together and formed a sprachbund
Jeremiah Wilson
Stay delusional. >That is, from the point of view of the degree of the dispersion of the Indo-European family, whose dispersion is greater (V= 223.79%), than that of the Altaic (V= 207.76%) taxon. This speaks for the Altaic theory. >english.fullerton.edu/publications/clnArchives/pdf/Tam-CompLanguage-rda.pdf >Indo-Europeans >Ancient wew lad Yet Indo-Europeans descend from a common tribe, eh? :^)
>This is the so-called "family tree" theory which claims that the Indo-European languages and peoples originate from a single common ancestral language, people and homeland, based on Grimm's linguistic theory of sound change. So far all attempts at locating the presumed ancestral Indo-European homeland and to reconstruct the hypothetical ancestral Indo-European language have failed. The evidence suggests that there were no single Indo-European common ancestral language, people and homeland, but that the Indo-European languages and peoples evolved from a complex process of cultural and ethno-linguistic convergence and hybridization among various proto-Indo-European and non-Indo-European peoples. (Götz, 1994.)
Lincoln Stewart
>Though some linguists believe the Altaic languages to be a genetic taxon, that is, a language family (e.g. Crystal, 1992: 14), it is better to be on the safe side and to consider it a language unity Not a genetic taxon? "Language unity"? Does he mean a sprachbund then? There's also the fact that Proto-Indo-European is 3000 years older than this Altaic sprachbund.
Austin Turner
its bs in that all the other indo-european languages are based on greek, but the mainstream hypothesis is some convoluted far fetched bs relic of romanticism and the colonial era
Thomas Turner
i wouldn't put too much stock in the colouring of the statuettes, unless you also believe they had blue nipples.
Robert Bennett
What is that thing, anyway? How is the authenticity of it calibrated, what were the circumstances under which it was found, and why are some parts colored, while the rest is "plain"?
Levi Ross
>butthurt fingol destroying history
you should be proud of your samoyedic, khanty-mansi culture and history
stop appropriating from others
ossetians are literally scythians and speak Ironi (iranian dialect)
scythian names and history attest to this
scythians actually conversed with persians in their own scythian language and understood one another perfectly
persians also confirm scythians as iranians
Angel Martin
>Erdogan Bot Erdogan supporters are illiterate normalfags, I don't think any of them would end up in Veeky Forums, let alone Veeky Forums.
He was also against nationalism except for the last 3 years, he literally said that "nationalism is under his feet".
Elijah Reyes
i just got it from google images and am not sure of its provenance.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Asmar_Hoard here's a similar one from tell asmar 2900-2550 bc. it doesn't have the blue shell inlays for eyes but you can still clearly see it's supposed to represent a nordic person.
Aaron White
>but you can still clearly see it's supposed to represent a nordic person.
What? Why? What leads to this conclusion? Because it's made of alabaster or something similar?
Adrian Lewis
It actually looks kinda semitic desu
Thomas Nelson
are you denying the reality of a white ruling class in ancient mesopotamia? basically every other ancient civilization is ruled by aryan whites but for some strange reason sumeria is left out? doesn't sound very likely.
Logan Anderson
top middle and his bottom are not sumerian this person is not sumerian
Sumerians did not have beards.This is semetic arab shit imposed there.
Angel Green
>muh blue eyes Meanwhile every other feature is semitic or asiatic. Several of those look like stereotypical eunuchs.
Benjamin Allen
>The Scythians had some reverence for the stag So did literally everyone in Northern Eurasia since Cro-Magnon.
Andrew Carter
Kys.
John Morris
Blue eyes are not an Aryan feature; Finns, a non-Aryan people, are the most blue-eyed people on Earth.
Brayden Clark
>it doesn't have the blue shell inlays for eyes but you can still clearly see it's supposed to represent a nordic person.
Yeah, the typical Nordic monobrow, hooked nose and black beard, very nordic features, and very weird to find such features in the middle east.
Gabriel Baker
>WE >WUZ
At least african supremacists try to find some statues that vaguely look African, these are clearly just non-Europeans with blue eyes (except Turkey, but Anatolians are pretty much "aryan whites".)
Joseph Green
>I guess Indo-European doesn't exist either You're right, it's a fictional language
Brayden Turner
Samoyeds and Ugrics are Siberians that adopted an Uralian language
See
Logan Reed
I know a lot of Aryan Mexicans. .. blonde hair blue eyes
Jace Ortiz
I'm not denying that there were some Iranian tribes among the outskirts of Scythia like the predecessors of Ossetians. However, Ural-Altaics were the dominant tribes. >scythians actually conversed with persians in their own scythian language and understood one another perfectly >persians also confirm scythians as iranians >scythian names and history attest to this Horseshit, all of it.
Jayden Butler
Is there any particular reason why people wank specifically over the scythians so much? They seem to receive a lot of "Muh honorabry ancestor" spiel from all around.
Evan Rodriguez
Did you know the first blue eyed human was black.. look that up that tripped me out.. I was like if Hitler knew that or the kkk they would have to look at themselves a bit different
Logan Adams
U beat me too it lol I was going to bust this Aryan guys bubble
Elijah Hill
Dark skinned, not really black.
Logan Evans
you're dead kiddo.
Christian Kelly
>scythians actually conversed with persians in their own scythian language and understood one another perfectly Bullshit, Scythians waged war against Iranians. Combs have been found in Scythian tombs that describe these wars. They can't be fucking Iranians.
Michael Walker
>implying people in the same ethnolinguistic group can't wage war against each other Literally all of history disagrees.
>No, the English Normans fought against the French, there's no way they spoke French!
Jaxson Nelson
>scythians actually conversed with persians in their own scythian language and understood one another perfectly >persians also confirm scythians as iranians cool story bro. did you hear them speak those languages? care to point me to some sources with actual proof of them speaking these languages, instead of making baseless claims? they didn't speak iranian languages, literally no proof of it.
Austin Gutierrez
>you weren't there Are you the creationist shitposter?
Sarmatians were not real Scythians, but underlings of the mainland Ural-Altaics that lived in the outskirts of Scythia. Ossetians descend from those peoples.
See
Michael Ward
>when school gets out and all the sumerfags come shit up your board
Just kill me now
Zachary Morgan
since allways
Thomas Watson
I'm very sure you're under the grip of a tremendous misunderstanding. I think it's fine, because it won't change the flavor of the restaurant food you cook or the shine on the floors of the place you're a janitor, in the places you could ever aspire to hold gainful employment with your extreme autism.
Samuel Moore
pic related is a scythian
note the non-fingol features >aquiline noses >dark heavy eyebrows and mustache >robust round eye (dark pigment)
infact, all ancient scythian art portrays non-fingol heavy-bearded, round-eyed, acquiline-nosed Iranids
the Don, Donets, Dnieper, Danube, Dniester and other rivers are all Scythian/Ironi words and very similar to persian
Scythian kings all have Ironi (Persian) names: King Madya King Idanthyrsa King Protuva King Išpakaia
Anacharsa
i suggest you throw you fingol-centric psuedoscience shit in the trash as it only tarnishes the image of fingols
be proud of your samoyed, khanty, enets history
Christopher Moore
>if you don't swallow anti-white propaganda hook line and sinker you have "extreme autism" lol okay. white aryan atlanteans have ALWAYS been the ruling class. it's so obvious to anyone with a brain.
Also the Scythian "kings" were leaders of specific tribes, like the Sarmatians, which weren't peoples that inhabited Central Scythia, but lived on the outskirts of it. Also the Iranians referred to Saka and other inner Scythians as "Turanians", a term that is known to refer to non-Iranians.
>be proud of your samoyed, khanty, enets history Samoyeds and Nenets have nothing to do with Finnics. They're Sibirids that adopted an Uralic language and mongrelized it with elements of their own, hence them not being even classified as Finno-Ugric. As to Khanty-Mansis, their relationship to Finnics is disputed, as Ugric's status as a valid linguistic classification is kind of controversial.
Brody Jones
>A Pole thinking he or Iranians had anything to do with actual Scythians topkek
Henry Perry
# >delusional fingol shitposting psuedohistory
no matter how hard you distance yourself from uralic, ur samoyedic autism still prevails
why do you selfhate on your uralic identity mr samoyed, khanty
what do you gain from insulting you own heritage and claiming iranian heritage as your own?
Daniel Jackson
>Sumerian thread >It's full of finnish and hungarian memes
Brayden Reed
FINGOL REKT
Carson Watson
what happen here?
Jaxson Walker
>mfw
Charles Rivera
the fingol has no worthy history
so with the rage of his khan he seeks out other civilizations as his ancestors have to pillage and destroy and crown himself ruler
but he will only another pinhole bowlegged autist buttbuddy to strangle instead
Xavier Young
You're not even arguing at this point. It is biased Indo-European historians trying to claim ancient civilizations as their own on really weak foundations.
Read and the other posts pasted on it.
Juan Bailey
Guy who did sumerology in uni here. Dissertation on ur III and evolution of the pan-city states.
Black-haired people in sumerian, black hair, not skin.
Yes it is. Interestingly, there's also loanwords from an unidentified precursor language that we don't think was written, and all these words are high civilisation concepts, eg 'table' 'chef' etc. So there was some sort of precursor mother civilisation that influenced their culture and we have no fucking idea what/where/when it was, and it's language (as far as can be reconstructed) is ANOTHER unrelated language isolate. It's fucking insane.
Scythians are likely proto-turks.
Not a fucking chance.
err, no. They weren't semites but they're part of the genetic stock that makes up later semites, so in a sense they kind of were, if that makes sense - they became a recognisable admixture. If you want sumerian, go look up Marsh Arabs - they have unchanged sumerian words in their language and tradtitioanlly live in the same kind of reed huts sumerians did in the countryside regions.
idiot
Any questions, since I actually know shit?
James Reed
lmao nobody cares about your useless degree from Prof. Schlomo cuck. The Persians were nordic whether yuou like it or not.
Nicholas Torres
Ok mahmoud, go fuck an eight year old boy because you cant afford to buy a wife to rape.
