I want to look at the current ongoing discussion over Muslim immigration in Europe on the lenses of history.
Can you think of civilizations where a group of people came in and adapted to that civilization?
Can you think of civilizations where a group of people came in and took over the civilization that adopted them?
I guess what I'm asking is, when a culture adopts another culture, how do things tend to shift? Does the adopted culture slowly transform into a possibly different looking but identical part of the overall culture? Do they coexist while clashing with one another? Does the adopted culture overtake the culture that took it in the first place? Any historical examples of any of these would be of interest to me.
And please don't tell me to go to /pol/, I want actual arguments and discussion, not shouting matches.
Would be nice if you provided more information than that. Even if it was just a wikipedia link to a specific example.
Jackson Scott
The Muslim conquests of al-Andalus (Spain) contribute to a lot of the area's historical and cultural heritage. Look at things like Spanish architecture and the position of non-Muslims in the Arabic Empire.
Basically: - Muslims come and invade. - Spain gains cultural influence from the Middle East. - Muslims gain cultural influence from Spanish. - 700 years later. - Europeans kick Muslims out. - Spanish culture remains Spanish, with Muslim elements.
Most Americans are not of English descent. Does that count?
Gavin Reyes
But in that case, it was an invasion. I'm talking about adoption of another culture. Surely the current Muslim immigration isn't an unprecedented event.
Isaiah Johnson
Maybe the Hellenistic period in the Middle East and Persia?
Ian Richardson
European cultures are all relatively similar to each other. They have many of the same core values, relatively similar religions, the people look roughly the same. I think you'd have to clarify quite a bit for that to count
And anyway, this doesn't answer OP's questions
Connor Diaz
Yeah, that's fair enough. However, the vast majority of population movement before the early modern era came as a result of invasions and conquests. The first real immigration (as we know it today) I can think of is probably just after European colonisation in the New World.
Travel was expensive, and there was no need for the poorest to ever leave their immediate area. Explorers, traders, and diplomats are the only three professions I know of who would ever need to leave their country of birth. Even kings and emperors could rule from court.
Borders only settled down at the dawn of the Early Modern period, so before that most movement was due to expansion of an existing country, rather than a desire to leave it.
Sorry that this doesn't really answer your question, but as far as it goes recent immigration is probably only matched by American colonisation. Furthermore, immigrants are being pushed from their homes rather than being pulled into Europe, in most cases.
Blake Wilson
They were conquerors just like the muslims in Spain.
Jeremiah Torres
Slavs moving into Byzantine lands maybe?
Logan Harris
>Can you think of civilizations where a group of people came in and adapted to that civilization? On small scales, such as in the Americas, not on large scales. People who are isolated, surrounded by a different culture are very likely to adopt the culture surrounding them after a few generations. On a large scale this is more unlikely because they will have their older culture reinforced. Some cultures are more likely to persist than others (think Jewish movement patterns across Europe vs. east Asians in USA)
>Can you think of civilizations where a group of people came in and took over the civilization that adopted them? Europeans moving to the Americas, Romans decimating celtic cultures
Brazil would be an interesting study to answer your questions
Christopher James
>non shit countries have muslims Well imo it seems that muslims bring prosperity
Caleb Lee
Actually, and despite what some people is saying here, we have a good example of "mass" migration: the gypsies.
In this case, they didn't influence the local culture much (the very notable exception being Spain and maybe i'm forgeting somewhere else). But they didn't integrate either, and certainly created a lot of conflict.
Another valid but completely different example are the chinese in south east asia. And I don't mean Vietnam where they were conquerors but Indonesia, Philipines and Malaysia. They didn't integrate much either, but unlike the gypsies they created wealth (although they were the first profiting from that). One should examine it closer and I'm no expert, but I'm sure those parts of SEA also got chinese cultural influence despite not being Vietnam. Again in this case we see ethnic conflict, though.
Finally we have the armenians of the Middle East (and I mean the ones outside historical armenia). They rarely integrated that much either, conserving their christian tradition, but to my experience they're not complete aliens to the local culture like the gypsies. Like the chinese, they aported both culture and wealth. We all know about the ethnic conflicts they caused, although that was in the Ottoman Empire and I have not seen this enmity in Iran.
We could continue, I'm sure we all have more examples. There's an obvious one I will not mention to not derail the thread. So in the end we do have examples but they don't really give us a patern or some exact rules. We have to specifically analyze the migrators and the country/region where they arrive. Notice that I say country and region, since I don't think Europe can be considered monolithic enough to talk about the whole of Europe. We should talk about countries and in some exceptional case groups of countries.
Joshua Evans
History of India and syncretic culture
Lucas Flores
>Can you think of civilizations where a group of people came in and adapted to that civilization? Literally the whole military history of china.
Cooper Gomez
China and Persia come to mind with respect to step niggers.
Hunter Nguyen
This is the opposite of what happened. China overtook those other locations and cucked them into believing they were Chinese until after a few centuries they did. They're doing it to Tibet right now
Benjamin Collins
What about the Mongols and Manchus? They adopted Chinese traits when they administered the region.
Austin Lee
Romania and Bulgaria have a lot of influence from gypsies.
>t.Romanian
Adrian Fisher
>1 million over 40 years >To a continent of 400 million people
Why.. Why are Americans so stupid? California is dying of drought, Florida is flooding and you guys are screaming about something so tiny.
It's like the Iraq war was escapism for 2000-2008 recession. We can't face our problems so we go find some that don't exist.
Jose Torres
>European cultures are all relatively similar to each other. They have many of the same core values, relatively similar religions, the people look roughly the same.
This is a meme. European cultures are not similar at all, and the ashes of a 100 million people dead in 2 world wars should illustrate as such.
If we are so similar, we should've been able to live in harmony, and yet we never have, which is a pretty solid argument against anyone who thinks white skinned people are all the same.
Thomas Lopez
It's funny because the entire 'white' identity is so misinterpreted nowadays. Back when white supremacy was the consensus with the 'white' identity being the racial superlative, the fucking colonial powers were having proxy wars and direct wars across the globe, culminating in WW1.
The modern day 'white' identity is just contrarianism to SJWism, headed by a bunch of retarded /pol/lacks who genuinely believe that all white skinned people are on the exact same side. Its funny because people from the Baltics disproportionately are in that demographic, perhaps because they want to feel good about themselves and think that they deserve credit for French, English and German cultural and technological innovations. Russian-US relations, East-West European relationships, Baltics-Russian relations and even factionalism within the EU disproves them lmao
James Young
Slavic culture and language in Croatia and western Balkans Liburni, Yapodi, Illyrians and rest of tribes here were assimilated into Slavic culture Slavs, Magyars, Avars etc were assimilated into Hungarian language and mixed Hungarian-Slavic culture
Illyrians, Liburni etc are no more but their genes persist, Avars are almost completely lost, Magyars partly too Slavic Hungarian connection is huge, Horvat (Croat) and Kovacs/Kovač(smith in Croatian) is the most common last name in Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia
It can be easily seen in ethnic groups and our physiology, northern Croats are more similar to Hungarians in terms of faces, bodies, general physical structure Southern ones (mostly ones form hinterland, not coastal although coastal are pretty tall too) are completely different and possibly the tallest people on the planet, bony faces, dark hair with minuscule amount Slavic genes And it differs throughout northern Croatia too, Zagorci (NW Croatia) look different than every other northern Croat with their ugly faces that are kinda Polish-Czech looking (western Slavs), they are possibly most Croatian
Croats just assimilated all other tribes into their culture. we are genetically very diverse
Chinkified Steppenegroes? Pooed Central Asians in India? For that matter, Turkics going Muslim? In a related note Magyars, Bulgars resembling Europeans despite coming from Steppenegroland?
>Can you think of civilizations where a group of people came in and took over the civilization that adopted them? Mongols and Manchus in China becoming Chink Emperors? Turkics becoming Sultans n Shah's n shiet. Magyar confederations going Christfaggot Western European kings n shiet?
Wow OP that wasn't hard.
Joseph Cruz
Norman Overlords becoming Britons and sheeit.
Jordan Robinson
OP is talking more of radically different cultures.
Although I would say your example still holds merit as the Normans were full-on classical feudalism replete with land-bound peasants while some sort of the old Germanic society of freemen and thanes was in Saxon England.
Sebastian Foster
Snow nigger and Roman
Ryder Edwards
Don't forget the Celticucks and the Romans
Daniel Murphy
Europe will never adopt Muslim culture and religion OP because they are already viewed with suspect, they are not culturally dominant, and they far too easily give up their morality and religious for a western life style.
I welcome the coming of more 2nd and 3rd generation slutty brown women.
Brayden Turner
Tell that to /pol/.
Angel Morgan
>>non shit countries have muslims >Well imo it seems that muslims bring prosperity more like they are atracted to prosperity and move to non shit countries, so then they have muslims
