A few days ago in this thread: desustorage.org/his/thread/1229837/ An user challenged the holocaust revisionists in the thread to refute the information contained in series of infographs. This is the first part of my response to that challenge, which will no doubt take several days or weeks to complete in its entirety, so I figured I should just post it up piece by piece as I work on it. I've also made a pastebin which I will update periodically: pastebin.com/xGXu4uGB
I'm unsure of the exact character limit in posts, so it'll take a bit to put this up in its entirety. Please be patient and wait till I've put it all up before replying. Or don't, I guess, who cares. Pic related is the first infograph I'll be refuting.
Before beginning with my deconstruction of these infographs, I should like to make it clear exactly what I intend to prove or disprove, as no doubt I will be accused of holding various viewpoints or opinions held by your average rabid /pol/tard.
What I don't intend to disprove/don't disagree with:
- The leadership of Germany during and preceding the second world war hated them some Jews, and intended to get rid of them, one way or another - That concentration camps were built and housed Jews along with other so-called undesirables - That these camps were not nice places to be, and that the Jews and other persons imprisoned in them were subject to theft, forced labor, unsanitary conditions, and dehumanizing treatment - That some Jews and others deemed undesirable were killed outright in these camps - That many Jews and others died of disease or starvation in these camps - That many Jews and Jewish partisans were killed by the S.S. (and no doubt the Wehrmacht, on occasion) outside of the camps, by means of sieges of their towns and ghettos, or by open warfare
What I do intend to disprove/don't agree with:
- That Jews and others deemed undesirable were gassed in gas-chambers in some sort of industrial mass-murder process - That the evidence presented in these infographs somehow proves this
- That at least one-third of the so-called Holocaust was an Allied fabrication pieced together almost purely from the testimony of liars, unreliable witnesses, German soldiers and officers threatened with execution and torture, and Soviet propagandists - That mainstream historians have been purposefully uncritcal in checking their sources - That the events of at least one-third of the Holocasut, as related in the mainstream narrative, are physically implausible - That no physical evidence has been found of the events as related in the mainstream narrative
Adam Williams
This is the first infograph presented by user in the last thread. Let's take on the evidence presented step-by-step (left to right, top to bottom) and see if it proves that Jews were gassed. I had to do a shit-ton of Googling, as you can clearly see that many of these excerpts aren't sourced in the image.
1. >Many wasted characters' worth of insults made by some ass-blasted Yuropoor with a hate-boner for Americans for some reason:
okay.jpg
2. >A scan of the first page of the second chapter of the book "Hitler and the Final Solution", by Gerald Fleming, that references statements made by Adolf Hitler in 1922 to the journalist Josef Hell in a transcript ("Aufzeichnung")
(cont.)
Nathaniel Rivera
In this transcript, Hell asks Hitler "What do you want to do to the Jews when you have full discrectionary powers?" Hitler proceeeds to go on an autistic rant about hanging Jews indiscriminately from gallows in the main streets of Munich, and then other cities. He uses the phrase "annhihilation of the Jews" to describe his "first and foremost task" once he's in power. This I can believe, and unlike stormfags I'm not going to quibble about the definition of "Ausrotten" or any such bullshit. What I would like to point out, however, is that Hitler going on a rant about what he's going to do to all those filthy kikes when he's in power doesn't prove that he did go on to do or order any such thing. It does prove intent, but it does not prove that Jews were gassed. If anything, it proves that Hitler was subject to changing his mind a lot, since he never did end up hanging Jews in the streets of Munich or any other city. Another quick thing I'd like to point out is that one of my hits when searching for the source of this scanned page is a paper by Kevin P. Sweeney of the Illinois Wesleyan Institute, which references Fleming's book, and just before doing so says (on page 3, page 5 in the pdf reader): "Since no definitive written order is known to exist, modern scholars must turn to alternative sources of primary evidence in determining Hitler's direct responsibility for developing and implementing the Final Solution." How interesting. Here's the paper: digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1170&context=constructing (cont.)
Jordan Gomez
3. >A screenshot of a website with a (purported) excerpt from Josef Goebbels diaries, February 14, 1942, pp. 85-86, from Louis P. Lochner's "The Goebbels Diaries", 1942-1943. Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1948
Thanks to the shitty 90's-era background on the screenshot, which also isn't sourced, we can trace this excerpt to nizkor.org, home of the "Nizkor Project", a project "intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred", and whose members "provide(s) [these writings] so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations." I see. Specifically, it's this page: nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goebbels-joseph/goebbels-1948-excerpts-02.html#1942-feb-14
The primary source this excerpt is taken from, supposedly, is a translation of Goebbels' diaries made by Louis P. Lochner. Though this man was a dirty pacifist hippy who spent a large amount of time during the war propogandizing against National Socialism, I have no reason for doubting the veracity of his translation due to bias, since he also spent a huge amount of time before America entered the war following the German army around and reporting on them (for which he won a Pulitzer), and was fluent in German. What I was concerned about was whether this excerpt on nizkor.org was genuine, given that I was unable to find a free readable copy of the book anywhere online, and I'm certainly not going to shell out money to verify a shitpost. So unfortunately, I'll just have to assume that the excerpt comes from Lochner's book directly.
The screenshot is only a snippet from the whole diary entry from that day, which is fairly short and reads: (cont.)
Jeremiah Powell
"In that connection it is significant that most of the local population leave with us wherever our troops are compelled to withdraw. Bolshevism is a doctrine of the devil, and anybody who has once suffered from this scourge doesn't want anything to do with it again. The sufferings of the Russian people under Bolshevism are indescribable. This Jewish terrorism must be radically eliminated from all of Europe. That is our historic task.
[It was a dogma with the Nazis that Bolshevism was a Jewish invention.]In that connection it is significant that most of the local population leave with us wherever our troops are compelled to withdraw. Bolshevism is a doctrine of the devil, and anybody who has once suffered from this scourge doesn't want anything to do with it again. The sufferings of the Russian people under Bolshevism are indescribable. This Jewish terrorism must be radically eliminated from all of Europe. That is our historic task.
[It was a dogma with the Nazis that Bolshevism was a Jewish invention.]
World Jewry will suffer a great catastrophe at the same time as Bolshevism. The Fuehrer once more expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness. We shall thereby render an inestimable service to a humanity tormented for thousands of years by the Jews. This uncompromising anti-Semitic attitude must prevail among our own people despite all objectors. The Fuehrer expressed this idea vigorously and repeated it afterward to a group of officers who can put that in their pipes and smoke it." (cont.)
Kayden Walker
[Inasmuch as pages 9-36 of this day's diary entry are missing, it is not apparent what the occasion was for this diatribe of Hitler's against the Jews. The Fuehrer remained in Berlin for some days following the funeral of Dr. Fritz Todt, Minister of Munitions, and constantly received his underlings. It is probably not wrong to assume that this was one of Hitler's conversations "unter vier Augen" (literally under four eyes) with Goebbels alone, of which the little doctor was so proud.]
World Jewry will suffer a great catastrophe at the same time as Bolshevism. The Fuehrer once more expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness. We shall thereby render an inestimable service to a humanity tormented for thousands of years by the Jews. This uncompromising anti-Semitic attitude must prevail among our own people despite all objectors. The Fuehrer expressed this idea vigorously and repeated it afterward to a group of officers who can put that in their pipes and smoke it.
[Inasmuch as pages 9-36 of this day's diary entry are missing, it is not apparent what the occasion was for this diatribe of Hitler's against the Jews. The Fuehrer remained in Berlin for some days following the funeral of Dr. Fritz Todt, Minister of Munitions, and constantly received his underlings. It is probably not wrong to assume that this was one of Hitler's conversations "unter vier Augen" (literally under four eyes) with Goebbels alone, of which the little doctor was so proud.]" (cont.)
Hudson Smith
The stuff in brackets is what I assume to be Lochner's notes. Anyway, again, there is no mention of any gassings, no mentions of methods for this supposed "destruction" of the Jews. In fact there are no specific details of any kind mentioned, even of when and where Hitler is supposed to have said any of this, as Lochner points out in his note. All this proves is that Goebbels was totally stoked by Hitler's hatred of the Jews, which isn't in dispute.
4. >A scan of a typed transcript of Heinrich Himmler's speech to assembled S.S. Officers in Poznan, Poland, October 4, 1943
This image, which is no doubt cropped from the image in the Wikipedia article on the Posen speeches and which looks identical (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Page_of_Himmler_Posen_Speech,_Oct_4,_1943.jpg), has a caption/translation which reads: "I am currently talking about the 'evacuation' of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that is easily said. 'The Jewish people is being exterminated,' every Party member says, 'perfectly clear, it's written in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we do that.'"
"There are sound recordings, too," user adds. "Check YouTube or whatever." So I did that as well. But first, the transcript. The image came from Wikipedia, but where did the article get it from? From here, apparently: historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-posen.htm (cont.)
Eli Hall
There is a whole transcript and audio recording, both in whole and broken into parts, available for reading/listening on this site. Where did they, in turn, get this from? Well, unfortunately, nowhere on this website does it list its sources. So we have to go back to Wikipedia. We see that under the heading "Speech of 4 October, 1943" - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches#Speech_of_4_October_1943 - that it lists several references for the parts which are also containted in the infograph. One is "IMT: Volume 29 (Urkunden und anderes Beweismaterial), p. 123", presumably the International Military Tribunal records from the Nuremburg trials. The only hit I get for this on Google is the Wikipedia article itself and three German links in which no part of the phrase I searched for appears, and appear to be only tangenitally related. Another reference leads to a dead page: holocaust-history.org/himmler-poznan/speech-text.shtml Hmm. The only hit I was able to get on any of wikipedia's references to the bit of transcript in the image was on loc.gov, the Library of Congress' website, which conveniently has a full pdf of "IMT Volume 29", as cited in the Wikipedia article. Here's the pdf: loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/NT_Vol-XXIX.pdf Go to page 120 in the reader, 110 in the actual text, under "DOCUMENT 1919-PS". This is the transcript of Himmler's speech that was used in the Nuremburg trials. Scroll down to page 155 in the reader, 145 in the text, where it begins: "Ich meine jetzt die Judenevakuierung, ..." This is presumably the part the infograph is referencing. The wording is exactly the same between the two. I don't read German, but I don't distrust the translation, either, since if it were obviously false I'm sure someone would have jumped all over it by now. (cont.)
Jeremiah Murphy
All the youtube recordings I found match the transcript given in the Nuremburg trials. Himmler says: " I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It's one of those things that is easily said: 'The Jewish people are being exterminated', says every party member, 'this is very obvious, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it, hah, a small matter.' And then they turn up, the upstanding 80 million Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. They say the others are all swines, but this particular one is a splendid Jew. But none has observed it, endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when there are 500 or when there are 1,000. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person — with exceptions due to human weaknesses — has made us tough, and is a glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of. Because we know how difficult it would be for us if we still had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and rabble-rousers in every city, what with the bombings, with the burden and with the hardships of the war." And so on.
Again, I'm not sure how this proves that any Jews were systematically gassed. Himmler mentions no details. We do know for a fact that the S.S. was tasked with eliminating Jewish, Communist, and other partisans and rebels, and that they killed a whole hell of a lot of them. But of the camps, he says nothing. (cont.)
Ian Cook
5. >A short quote from Hitler from a speech he made on 30 January, 1942, to a crowd in Berlin
Apparently this quote was taken from "The Holocaust", by Martin Gilbert, p. 285, who got it from the records of the Foreign Broadcast Monitoring Service of the Federal Communications Commission in the U.S. The first site with credentials that aren't explicitly Jewish which lists this source is the Florida Center for Instructional Technology's website, which also helpfully lists several other quotes captured by the FBMS both prededing and during the war where Hitler talks about the annhiliation of the Jewish race, though as usual, never in definite terms. You can read them all here: fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/RESOURCE/DOCUMENT/DOCJEWQN.HTM As you can see, it's all vague threats and bluster for public consumption, which figures, since the FBMS only ever captured propaganda broadcasts. It proves nothing that is in dispute by me.
6. >Another screenshot from the "Nizkor Project" website, of part of a transcript of a (physical) letter sent from someone named Jamie McCarthy to Holocaust revisionist David Irving
(cont.)
Julian Barnes
David Irving has gotten a lot of attention over the years from basically anyone interested in either critiquing or defending the Holocaust narrative, and the people at the Nizkor project apparently were able to get their hands on quite a few of the various letters and emails people sent him, though how they got a physical copy or transcript of this letter when I wasn't even able to find it on Irving's own website, I don't know. Anyway, the screenshot is of Mr. McCarthy (who apparently is just some amateur historian with a Doctorate in Computer Science, according to Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_History_Project) reproducing a passage in a book he read for Irving to read. The book is "Eichmann Interrogated (the 1983 Farrar, Strous & Giroux edition"; this book is unavailable for free online, but helpfully, selections from it, including the larger passage from which this snippet in the letter was taken, are located at the website of the Holocaust History Project, of which Mr. McCarthy is a member: holocaustresearchproject.org/trials/eichmanfuhrerorder.html
This is important, because if this is from the real transcript of the Eichmann interrrogation, we have caught our first outright false piece of evidence in this inforgraph. The video I first mentioned in the thread that caused me to write this rebuttal talks about the Eichmann trial, and about the sheer ridiculousness of the "evidence" presented and about how Eichmann outright lied to see whether anyone would catch it and realize that the whole trial was bunk. One of Eichmann's lies in this vein is helpfully preserved on the Holocaust History Project's website, but is curiously not put up in the infograph, even though it mentions gassing Jews. We'll see why in a second.
(cont.)
Brayden Anderson
Eichmann says, to the Israeli Captain who is interrogating him: "This I still remember. And they were erecting wooden huts, possibly two, perhaps three, this I no longer know exactly. The size - a sort of house with two or three rooms, I would say of that size , not large; and apparently - but I do not know this any more - Hoefle had given instructions to this Police Captain that he should explain this installation to me." He goes on to say "...he [a 'certain Captain of the Security Police' at Belzec] told me how he had made everything here hermetically sealed, that everything had been sealed, since an engine of a Russian submarine was going to operate here and the gases of this engine were going to be directed inside and the Jews would be poisoned."
If you're not a drooling retard, your bullshit senses are probably already tingling. Eichmann is getting a tour of the top-secret death camp, Belzec, and is told that the brilliant, German-engineered, efficient solution to the Jewish question is...a few small, hastily-assembled wooden huts which were then "hermetically sealed" and attached to a *captured Russian submarine engine*, which would then pump (diesel) gases into the huts, which would then "poison" the Jews. (cont.)
Luis Edwards
Uh-huhhh. First of all, no Russian submarines were ever captured by the Kriegsmarine during the war. In fact, very few submarines from any side were ever captured, since, y'know, they can escape underwater and tend to sink to the bottom of the ocean when hit. But even if they did have a captured Russian submarine, why in the everloving fuck would they drag the engine - which is the size of a small house and is ridiculously heavy - 250 miles inland to Belzec, to be repurposed as a carbon-monoxide generator, when diesel engines are literally the worst possible way to do that, and there were plenty of woodgas generators just lying around, literally eveywhere, which produced carbon monoxide at a hundred times the concentration of diesel exhaust? Why would they use a Russian diesel submarine engine, which they wouldn't have manuals or parts for, even if it was an efficient killing machine? And why try to hermetically seal a bunch of small wooden shacks ("hovels" is the word he uses in his trial, btw) when you could, I dunno, pour some concrete into large, airtight structures for your spoopy death chambers? All the points I just made are made and expanded upon in this video: youtu.be/7dxsVSzL4HE?t=3h49m43s I made sure to link specifically to the part where these issues are brought up.
Eichmann's testimony was accepted as evidence of his own culpability, and of the larger Holocaust narrative, btw, despite the fact that it was clearly bullshit, like his other story about "blood fountains" shooting up out of the mass graves. The man was dragged from hiding in Argentina to Israel, faced with execution, most likely tortured, and still had the presence of mind to leave breadcrumbs so that posterity would be able to question the story after his death. The man is a fucking hero. His testimony, however, belongs in the trash, just like the rest of these infographs, as we'll see. (cont.)
Jaxson Morgan
7. >One scanned paged of a purported report from Heinrich Himmler to Hitler concerning partisans executed on the Eastern Front, and part of a transcript of the case "David Irving v Penguin Books and Deborah Lipstadt", where the aforementioned document is presented to Irving and he goes "yeah, that looks authentic to me"
I was only able to find a copy of this image on David Irving's own website by googling "Report to the Fuhrer on Combating Partisans", and he helpfully mentions that it is contained at the U.S. National Archives and the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz. Unfortunately, typing in the file names he gives into Google only gives hits from Irving's own site and that of another Holocaust revisionist. Neither archive he mentions seems to contain the file names when searched directly, either. Anyway, though I don't read German, even I know what "Juden exekutiert" is supposed to mean, and it seems to indicate that 363,211 Jews or Jewish partisans, or both, were executed sometime between August and November of 1942. (cont.)
Dominic Long
Someone on David Irving's website comments on the document: fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Meldung291242b.html He says: "There is probably a connection between this report and the December 1941 note in Himmler's diary "Judenfrage - als Partisanen auszurotten". The diary note probably records a decision to treat the Jewish population of the occupied USSR as partisans, or as the main supporters of the partisans, and the Himmler report of one year later documents the results of action undertaken as a result of that probable decision." He goes on: "However, it must be borne in mind that anti-partisan warfare usually leads to massive civilian casualties, even when waged by "democratic" governments. During the Algerian War, for example, the French Army killed some one million Muslim Algerians, the vast majority of whom were not armed rebels. As to the question of the numbers quoted, their exactitude is most probably fictional. The 3,211 component may well be a genuine count, made at one particular massacre or derived by the addition of a number of smaller massacres. The 360,000 component is most likely not the result of an actual count, but an estimate extrapolated from a number of counts and/or estimates; it is probably not absolutely accurate, but nevertheless of the right order of magnitude." David Irving himself, both in the trial from which the small bit of transcript in the infograph is taken, and on his website, says that the document looks authentic.
What the document doesn't prove, even in terms of intent, is that Jews were ever gassed in concentration camps, which is what I intended to debate in this write up. I'm not a stormfag and don't dispute that many Jews were killed during the war in various actions by the S.S. and Wehrmacht. Much of that was no doubt due to the huge amount of partisan warfare and communist agitation occurring on the Eastern Front, in which Jews played a huge part and which no historian would dispute.
Jaxon Allen
...and that's it for part one. I'll make threads like this as I find the time to go over each of the infographs, find the sources, cross-check them, type it all up, etc. See you fags again soon.
Zachary Williams
Thanks based user
Caleb Rogers
It's a waste of time but you've done good, user.
Benjamin Cox
Not an argument.
Logan Foster
You're a hero user, thank you
Zachary Bailey
>Don't talk to me or my brothers in arms ever again
Ethan Evans
>i got triggered when this was posted >one of the sources is dodgy but the rest are legit >it proves intent >but not gassing >in other words it does what it fucking said it would
magnificent job...
tune in next week where user debunks the existence of water because water is not oil
Brandon Brooks
>one of the sources is dodgy but the rest are legit
"Dodgy" is a very charitable way to describe that source. It's an outright fabrication that's so ridiculously out of place that it's downright incriminating to not only the court that tried Eichmann, but to every asshole like yourself and whoever made the infograph that uncritically passed it on as if it was proof of anything except the extent to which people are willing to lie to advance a narrative and punish their political enemies. Such uncritical acceptance of "authoritative" sources casts the whole story into doubt.
And I've barely even started.
By the way, have you watched the video I linked, yet? I'm sure you'd relish the chance to make my self-evidently ridiculous arguments look even dumber, right? :^)
