How can atheist Jews justify the legitimacy of Israel?
I mean if you're religious it's pretty clear cut. God made a promise to Abraham and then gave the land to Moses and Joshua. In essence, it should be governed by Jews because God said so.
But if you don't believe in God at all, entire legitimacy goes out the window.
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It's the land of my ancestors. That's all the legitimacy I need.
You might have a point if you made this thread a century ago
>Atheist Jews
??
There are almost no religious Jews, at least in America
A fuckton of Jews are atheist my man
Isn't it the home and of a whole lot of people too though?
homeland*
Can any country justify their existence? They just are, and usually it was done by force, let them be them
>But if you don't believe in God at all, entire legitimacy goes out the window.
They live there and they were strong enough to get Arabs to fuck off. Right of conquest, for one.
I would go with UN resolution 181 (II) myself.
They just arrogate to themselves the accomplishments of God.
They can't.
The country is made up of mostly Ashkenazi jews who, having no tie to ancient Israel whatsoever, emigrated from Europe to Palestine under direction of Theodor Herzl. After the British secured control of Palestine following WW1, known zionist Herbert Samuel was made high commissioner. Samuel facilitated the immigration and enfranchisement of thousands of European jewish families to Palestine.
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>muh UN resolution!
Lol if zionists are so supportive of the UN, then why did they assassinate the man who was sent by the UN to mediate the situation?
That is not true at all. My doctor is a practicing Jew.
Jews are manifestly superior to all goyim
>Ashkenazi jews
>no ties to ancient Israel
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>But if you don't believe in God at all, entire legitimacy goes out the window.
God is not a requirement to believe in the United Nations, money, weapons, and racial superiority.
Jews are like the other Middle Easteners who believe in acquring power first, before determining whether you are the hero or the villain.
Even if an ancestor from millennia ago had some Israeli mixture, that doesn't negate the fact that a larger levantine population had been living in Palestine for far longer. Why should this native levantine population be disenfranchised just so a bunch of rich zionists can say "we wuz kangs"? And let us not forget that the native Samaritan jews (more jewish than ashkenazi jews) are required to 'convert' to judaism before joining the IDF, despite already being jewish.
>Do as I say, not as I do
Ethno-states for me, not for thee.
Your ancestors are some slavs, who had one jewish relative. 99% of Israelis are "Jews" from Latin America and slavic countries.
I'm not a filthy Jew but I support Israel on the principle that one should never force your enemies into a corner. You always want to leave them a way out.
When the day comes for the complete and total expulsion of all Jews from white countries the logistics will be easier if Israel is still around.
Imagine if all the remaining native Americans scattered themselves around the world, interbred with the indigenous population of other natives, passed down and altered form of various shamanistic religions practiced by native Americans, and then in 4000AD came back to America, took over a random sizable chunk of the land, oppressed the local population, claimed it was their sacred homeland, and reconstructed the Cherokee tongue.
That is what modern Israel is like.
>indigenous population of other nations*
is what I meant
>athiest
>legitify
They literally recite darwinism or something.
It's legitimate because there's a Hebrew presence now in it. The people have a country they can call their own and they are willing to fight for it. It helps that the Palestinian leaders are mortal enemies to Israel and constantly bombs their civilians, which further drives the Israeli sense of nationalism.
>How can atheist Jews justify the legitimacy of Israel?
well at this point its been therre for sixty years so...
otherwise just referr to the fact that jews are litterally always threatend by someone, having a place where they are realtivley safe is a neat thing
>The country is made up of mostly Ashkenazi jews
gr8 b8 m8
utter bullshit. ignoring the issue of how "jewish" the Ashkenazi are, half of Israelis are Sephardic or Mizrahi
>a place where they are relatively safe
>right in the middle of the fucking Middle East
I mean really, could it not have been some other desert in Australia or some shit? Or maybe some place way off in Russia or Canada or just somewhere where they aren't surrounded by enemies who are also some of the most unstable states in the world? Why Israel?
one of the early ideas in Zionism was to buy land in Argentina. but that didn't work out and the secular zionists needed to attract the religious jews in order to get wider public support
>The country is made up of mostly Ashkenazi jews
Majority of Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi.
About 50% are Ashkenazi, not including Ashkenazi offspring. That's still an extremely large minority. This minority also fills most of the governmental roles in israel, mind you.
Official Israeli figures only count the ethnicity of one's father. The actual number, including those of mixed heritage, is closer to 61%. Keep in mind, a full 20% of Israel's population are Arabs, the majority of which are Muslim. To put this in context, there are legitimate Sharia courts operating in Israel whose decisions are recognized by the wider secular court system.
And Ashkenazi Jews do have a strong genetic and cultural connection to the Levant. This has been explained numerous times in this thread and others, but I'd like to point out that a lot of early 20th century antisemitic media fully acknowledges this, depicting Ashkenazi Jews as having stereotypical "Oriental" facial features and considering them to be foreigners with no connection to Europe whatsoever. It was only after foundation of Israel that people suddenly began to claim that Ashkenazi Jews are "white Europeans" with no connection to the Holy Land.
Second of all, they play a large role in government because Ashkenazi Jews are more likely to have emigrated with at least some of their property and possessions intact, while most Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews were outright stripped of all their property and possessions and came to Israel with absolutely nothing. Considering this fact, it's actually amazing that the gap in wealth and political isn't significantly wider than it is currently.
You don't need to justify successful conquest.
But I don't think most non practicing jews really pay it much mind. They were just born there and don't care for the politics.
Even if ashkenazis do have connection to Palestine, the Levantine natives have more. The Kingdom of Israel and its polities lasted 1013 years at the most (1050 BC-37 BC). Meanwhile, Arab rule of Palestine lasted about 1316 years (632-1948). This isn't even mentioning the fact that most Levantine Arabs are also descendants of previous peoples.
Furthermore, the fact that ashkenazis practically rule the israeli government shows that they see themselves as their own class. After all, Samaritan jews (who have always lived in Palestine) are required to 'convert' to judaism if they wish to join the IDF. Why must jews convert to a religion they already have? It's because the ashkenazis differentiate themselves and their beliefs from other jews.
The idea of legitimacy is half-farcical when nearly everything around the world has been taken by force.
as for Israel, it's not legitimate at all and was acquired through conquest and guile. The idea that the new Israeli elite have anything in common with the ancient Israelites who established their dynasties is as laughable as the idea that modern Macedonians descend from the Macedonia of Alexander the Great. These historical myths are extremely prevalent in nationalism discourse, though, and are common throughout many countries of the world.
>Meanwhile, Arab rule of Palestine lasted about 1316 years (632-1948).
Okay, now I know that you're either a troll or someone with a third-world education that somehow got internet access. The Ottomans ruled the Levant for a good half-century, for one thing. I'd prefer not to get into the Crusades now, but those states take up another century at least. I'm just listing this stuff off the top of my head, I'm not an expert in pre-20th century history in general.
Ashkenazim don't see themselves as their own class, as the record number of intermarriage among Jews demonstrates. And Samaritan beliefs aren't just different from Ashkenazi customs, they significantly differ from literally every other recognized form of Judaism, whether it be practiced by Ashkenazim, Sephardim, or Mizrahim, to the point that calling them "Samaritan Jews" is a bit like calling someone a "Catholic Orthodox".
You are completely ignorant of the complexities of this issue. Read a book.
I meant half-millenium. I was gonna write "5 centuries", but I fucked up.
Nice anecdote you've got there
>oppressed the local population
great meme m8
>oppressing the "local population"
>"local population" grows 10x larger in a matter of decades during your "brutal occupation"
>"local population" that actually stayed in their homes when the Jordanian army told them to leave now have more rights than anyone else in the region
>"oppression"
Judaism actually discredits the Zionist Entity. Jews were supposed to wait for the Messiah. A lot of highly religious Jews are anti-Zionist.
>Ottomans are the only muslims to ever rule Palestine
Muslims rule of Palestine starts with the Rashidun Caliphate.
>Ashkenazim don't see themselves as their own class
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Poor downtrodden people breed like rats. It's a survival strategy.
>How can atheist Jews justify the legitimacy of Israel?
The reaction of the Arab countries towards the initial declaration of independence completely justifies it. The Jewish exodus of the arab states legitimized the country. Let's say Israel is not legitimized and all who aren't decendents of Jews who lived there pre 40s have to leave. Where would they go? They can't return form where they come from.
Atheist socialist jews were still defined by the hate that on jews directed otwards them. Plus even atheist jews still knew all the histroy and customes.
This was mixed wit nationalism and vuallah.
Now the nu,bers of religious zionists is rising. Atheist zionists are over. religious zionist have taken up the torch now.
They believe that they can, through, settlment and the retaking of anciant jewish lands bring about the end times and salvation.
>They believe that they can, through, settlment and the retaking of anciant jewish lands bring about the end times and salvation.
No they don't, this isn't a Jewish belief.
Questions about morals are propoganda. There is no univrsal wrong or right if we frame the discussion by using people and countries.
i.e. the only discussion about what is moral that is above propoganda is the disucssion about the very idea of a seperate jewish people and nation and a palestinian peopel and nation.
The discussion can only be about the legitimacy of nation states and ethnic grouping.
Excluding that, we are left with might makes right. Asking who is more moral, the jews or the palestinians is a conflict prolonging argument. This is the argumeht that has been raging all this time and it has braught and will bring only more chaos.
the question should be instead how can we make the lives of all the people involved better in practical perticular terms of the day today life.
>What is self-rule
To clarify, only a tiny minority of ultra-orthodox Jews actually believe this.
Holy crap, I live in Israel and have talked and raed about religious zionists.
They believe that through the retaking the land of anciant israel they are bring closer salvation.
The originator of these ideas was the rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook.
>How can atheist Jews justify the legitimacy of Israel?
It was literally founded by them, retard.
Atheist Jews either don't care about "justifying the legitimacy" of a country they didn't create or if they're real edgy don't support it. How and why would a regular citizen justify the legitimacy of any country, and why would it matter? It won't mean the country would seize to exist. It's a pointless question
It's funny how Zionists fall back on their realpolitik to prove that they don't have to justify anything they've done but attack other countries on their morals constantly.
>I hate zionists
ok
Im coming from a place of trying to better the conditions and I insist that arguing over who is moral is pointless and leads to war.
I mean both sides. If you wanna pretned all israelis are the same person and then blame me for something you made up in yor own head go ahead but you might as well grab a rifle or a suicide belt and go kil some israelis because this type of discussion has lead and will lead only to more bloodshed.
>Why should this native levantine population be disenfranchised
They never had the franchise in the first place.
The proposals to create Israel also proposed to enfranchise the non-Jewish population. They rejected each one because REEE JOOOS
>rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook
kek
>How can atheist Jews justify the legitimacy of Israel?
Hitler didn't just target the religious Jews, The Russians didn't just target the religious Jews, The Arabs didn't just target the religious Jews, The SS st Louis wasn't carrying only religious
Israel doesn't exist because a couple of jews said "fuck it, let's piss off some arabs."
throughout the creation of Israel to now, the real purpose behind Israel is that Jews can leave their country and have a refuge.
Herzl wrote about that purpose and all Israeli leaders have worked to assist Jews in moving to Israel for a life away from antisemitism. with the current rise of antisemitic attacks in europe, Israel is clearly as necessary now as it was for the past 70 years.
>Israel is causing antisemitism
doesn't change the fact that antisemitism exists, and after Israel is gone, there will still be antisemitism.
>why does it have to be in that area
because it has more Jewish history, which means that the world leaders of the early 1900s would support it more than in madagascar