Paul was an usurper

Why do people continue to think Paul of Tarsus was a learned and observant Jew of Pharisaic inclination, when all the evidence points to him being a Greek (perhaps of Jewish descent, but certainly not versed in the religion or even devout)

>came from Tarsus, where there were few, if any, Pharisee teachers and a Pharisaic training would have been hard to come by.
>claimed to have spent his childhood in Jerusalem and have been educated by Gamaliel: however, Gamaliel's school was one specializing in advanced studies, and not in the tutoring of children, meaning that if he ever did study under Gamaliel, he would have done so as an adult, and that hardly counts as "being raised" in the ways of the Pharisees
>why is it that Saul, allegedly an enthusiastic Pharisee ('a Pharisee of the Pharisees'), is closely working with the Sadduccee High Priest in his supposed 'persecutions'? It is well-known the two had a very bitter rivalry, which had at times turned into violence
>the Nazarenes (Peter and James; the Jerusalem 'Church') became suspicious of Paul when they heard that he was preaching that Jesus was the founder of a new religion and that he had abrogated the Torah; after an attempt to reach an understanding with Paul, the Nazarenes broke irrevocably with Paul and disowned him.
>the writings of the Ebionites surprisingly give an account of Paul's life similar to that which has been hypothesized: they held that he was a gentile who came to Jerusalem as an adult and attached himself to the High Priest as a henchman.
>Pauline contributions to the 'Christian' understanding are completely Hellenic, and completely alien to Judaism: concepts such as: sacrifice and a mystical sharing of the death of the deity; the concept of a suffering god and salvation being tied to it.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple_Judaism#Jerusalem_and_Yehud
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

So, as an adult, Saul of Tarsus, a Roman citizen, studied at an advanced level under Gamaliel.

Did you intend to answer your own questions?

>the Nazarenes (Peter and James; the Jerusalem 'Church')

Peter was from Galilee and Nazareth was a shitty border town servicing Roman legions, full of what we would call white trash.

Do you know anything worth knowing?

Then this contradicts Paul's own statement, since he claimed that "I am a true-born Jew, a native of Tarsus in Cilicia. I was brought up in this city[Jerusalem], as a pupil of Gamaliel..."

Gamaliel didn't take in children into his school; he was a renowned Rabbinical scholar, and in fact, his academy was only open to Jews.

Ancient Jewish thought is deplorable in the light of modern thinking, so the safest path was to continue in the Hellenic tradition and pretend it was totally consistent. I mean Christianity became a dialectic of Platonic-Aristotelian theology over the centuries, can you imagine how shitty Europe would be if it remained Jewish? Thank God for neoplatonists,

>Then, the term simply designated followers of "Yeshua Natzri" Jesus of Nazareth, as the Hebrew term נוֹצְרִי (nôṣrî) still does, but in the first to fourth centuries, the term was used for a sect of followers of Jesus who were closer to Judaism than most Christians:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect)

Seems like it's you who doesn't know much of anything.

You would think he'd know a bit then, like what the paschal sacrifice was for (hint, it wasn't atonement), or the difference between sin vs righteousness as opposed to purity vs impurity.

And Paul was a Jew, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The only contradiction is how you can post this drivel and remember to breathe at the same time.

What nonsense. They were followers of the Way first, and then called Christians at Antioch.

Get tired of telling you this, Jew.

Jesus is the Lamb of God.

Jesus took your sins onto Himself, made them His sins, suffered the wrath of God and paid the death penalty thereof. For YOUR sins.

On the Passover.

Because He is the Lamb of God that Abraham told Isaac God would provide.

So Paul claimed, and yet all of his statements are suspicious. Never met Jesus, but somehow claimed to have known him better than everyone did in life; supposedly a devout and very observant Pharisee (he stresses it so much himself), but was closely aligned himself with a Sadduccee High Priest; claimed to have studied under Gamaliel's academy, but showed complete ignorance of basic Jewish theology and instead supplied content taken from Greek mystery religions. Themes such as a suffering god or the mystical sharing of a deity's death are not found in Judaism. YHWH is always presented as an ALMIGHTY WARRIOR. However, the idea of a suffering deity and sharing in the deity's suffering to find redemption is one that can easily be found in Greek mystery religions: Attic mystery rites, Eleusinian mysteries, Orphic mysteries, etc.

Also, the people who actually had known Jesus in life such as Peter and James never considered Paul one of their own.

You're an imbecile for believing a charlatan and a deceiver.

The original lamb was not a sin offering; it was offered in the context of Israel's deliverance from slavery. The blood of that lamb marked the doorposts of the houses of the Israelites, so that the angel of the Lord would spare those houses the dreadful tenth plague which was visited on Egypt on the night of Passover.

This new Lamb of God, however, does more than free the Israelites from servitude in Egypt. He is the Suffering Servant of the Lord, described in the Book of Isaiah as a sin offering. This new Paschal Lamb takes away the sins of the whole world. He does not perish for one people only, but to gather into one all the scattered children of God. This verse from Exodus, cited at the scene on the Cross, ties the end of John's account back to the exclamation of John the Baptist in the first chapter.

This imagery ties St. John's theology to that of St. Paul, who wrote to the Corinthians, "Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed." It ties John also to Peter, who declared our redemption by "the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19).

Jesus changed Passover.

It no longer represents His deliverance of His people from Egypt.

Get rid of the old. You aren't in it anyways. And it has nothing to offer you.

Jesus rose from the dead, appeared to many people after He rose from the dead, and years later when Saul was on the road to Damascus, appeared to Paul in glory, blinding him.

Paul attempted to start a ministry, failed, and then went to Arabia for three years.

When he came back, he knew Jesus better than all the other apostles combined, and knew the New Testament better than all the other apostles combined.

And he wrote that he got it directly from Jesus.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

>Peter and James never considered Paul

More lies from you. Do you ever tire of lying?

2 Peter 3
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Galatians 2
But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

cool fanfiction lad, better watch your mouth when speaking to your betters, we invented this whole religion, we know this better than you

If you do not have the Son, you do not have the Father.

You are no child of Abraham; if you were, you would belong to Jesus, as Abraham and Jesus were friends.

You have no God, no Temple, no High Priest, no animal sacrifices, no atonement for your sins, you have never kept one single Passover, and you impugn my relationship with the living God?

Truly you are the most ironic of Jews.

...

Oh, how convenient for Paul.

About the conversion on the road to Damascus...

Why is a Jewish High Priest sending officials to arrest people in non-Jewish Damascus, which is part of the imperial province of Greater Syria and outside the jurisdiction of the Jewish authorities? The Jewish authorities had limited jurisdiction even IN Judea... they didn't have authority to arrest people in Caesaria Maritima, or the Decapolis. Only in Jerusalem and some outlying Jewish areas.

Obviously some stupid invention by Paul to some gullible and ignorant Greeks.

Or just made up latter on

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul

For calling people liars, you sure seem to rely on the lies of others.

The writings of the Ebionites - descendants of the group led by James and Peter - claim t hat there never was any sort of reconciliation after the various arguments that culminated after the Incident of Antioch. In fact, the legend of a 'reconciliation' most likely arose from Paul or his followers, since they wanted to portray themselves as having been friendly with the people who personally had known Jesus, for the sake of propaganda ("Look at our group: even those who knew Jesus approve of us and admit our righteousness in the end.") and for the sake of Christianity's obsessive drive to convert the Jews.

Christcucks BTFO

>And he wrote that he got it directly from Jesus.

Christians will believe anything. If I told you that Jesus had appeared to me and spoken to me about his true message, would you believe it? Why not? After all, I have the same amount of evidence/proof that Jesus spoke to me as Paul did.

There was a pretty large Jewish community in Damascus and in virtually every major city in the Roman Empire.

>usurper

Paul is the reason Christianity is a religion and not a sect of Judaism. He's the creator, not the usurper.

Do you have access to Google?

Briefly explained, Saul's authority did not come from the full Sanhedrin, but from the High Priest, himself, as head of the Jews's religion (Judaism). The Sanhedrin would be involved after Saul brought any prisoners back to Jerusalem. The High Priest's authority in Jewish religious matters extended beyond Roman administrative boundaries and was not affected by the regular limitations of Roman civil law. More details are given below:

Saul’s letters of authority to arrest any followers of "this way" in the Damascene synagogues and bring them back to Jerusalem for trial and punishment were granted within the sphere of Judaism, which was outside of regular Roman laws or courts and extended beyond the province of Judea into synagogues anywhere in the empire.

The High Priest exercised his authority under the general Roman policy of toleration toward the Jews. Judaism had been tolerated in Rome by diplomatic treaty with Graeco-Judaean (Hasmonean) rulers during the later days of the Roman Republic (161 B.C.) when Judea sought protection and aid in its struggle against the Seleucid rulers (I Maccabees 8:17-20; and Josephus, Antiquities, 13. 9:2). Rome’s toleration continued in the days of Julius Caesar “because their ancestral laws predated Rome. Jews had legal privileges as a collegia (defined by Roman law as religious & legal entities), giving them the right to assemble, have common meals and property, govern and tax themselves, and enforce their own discipline.”

Toleration by Rome toward Jews was reiterated in the Edict of Augustus in 1 B.C., which protected practice of their “own customs in accordance with their ancestral law” in the Temple and the synagogues ( Edict of Augustus, Josephus, Antiquities 16.162–5). In particular, there was a very Jew-tolerant attitude by the Romans in the latter years of Tiberias (the setting of Acts Chapter 9) in reaction to the fall of Sejanus, the Jew-hating Praetorian Prefect: "Therefore, all people in every country, even if they were not naturally well inclined towards the Jewish nation, took great care not to violate or attack any of the Jewish customs of laws" (Philo, De Legatione ad Gaium, xxiv).

People who deny things written in the bible are liars, yes.

Congratulations on figuring that out.

We'll believe the truth, yes.

Lies we have a hard time believing. That's really a satan thing; he's the father of lies, and the originator thereof.

The word Judaism is a neologism created by Josephus. Christianity is the natural and true continuation of the Israelite faith of Abraham and Moses. The Rabbinite heresy is the new religion that denied the Messiah and broke with the faith of Abraham and Moses.

Congrats on being more retarded than OP.

Why are you lying?

The Jewish Priesthood simply did not have authority or jurisdiction outside of Judea, and Damascus was well inside the province of Greater Syria. While the Jews were allotted some prerogatives, they were still vassals: not even vassals of the Roman Republic/Empire, but vassals of vassals, since Judea was considered a vassal/tributary of the the province of Greater Syria.

>People who deny things written in the bible are liars

You're an idiot, plain and simple. There's nothing else to be said.

I give you Josephus and Philo who disagree with you, as I find you absolutely abhorrent.

>Christianity is the natural and true continuation of the Israelite faith of Abraham and Moses.

If you actually believe this, you are mistaken. While I agree rabbinical Judaism is an innovation, pre-Christian Jewish traditions are preserved by Kariates and Samaritans, not to mention the Jewish Bible itself.

Congratz on not knowing anything about your religion.

...

Karaites and Samaritans deny the Messiah that was so clearly elucidated by the Old Testament. They are heretics.

No they deny that Jeshua ben Padera was the Messiah, which makes them correct.

>the Messiah that was so clearly elucidated by the Old Testament

By any standards of Jewish theology, Jesus was a complete failure and therefore not a Messiah.

typical whiny monotheist against free speech

Christianity is the confession that Jesus is Lord, and the belief in one's heart that God raised Him from the dead.

That happened years before Saul turned into Paul.

I don't belong to any religion.

I am free. Jesus, the Truth, has set me free.

quotes are above

>Jeshua ben Padera

>Writes in Hebrew

>Uses a "J"

Christianity is the belief that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. He wasn't. It was a minor sect of Jews until Paul reinvented it as a religion and all this "son of god" nonsense was added.

Not by God's standards.

Jesus defeated death.

Call Him a loser to His face when you see Him in His glory.

J wasn't invented until the 14th century dumb face, it was probably an H or some shit

Romans didn't really care much about Israel until some Essenes ambushed and killed the better part of a Roman legion.

Then they cared a lot.

>it was probably an H or some shit

It was a Yod (Y).

Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.

Christianity is the belief that Jesus is Lord; that He is God; and that God raised Him from the dead.

If you believed Moses and the prophets, you would know Jesus is the Messiah, as they talked about Him.

Yeah, so pretty fucking stupid using it for a 2nd century Jew.

>"Therefore, all people in every country, even if they were not naturally well inclined towards the Jewish nation, took great care not to violate or attack any of the Jewish customs of laws

That is hardly a statement that confirms that Jews had the right to carry out extra-judicial punishment (they did not), and appears to be more of one of those fanciful exaggerations that often appear in ancient texts to laud a certain people. Philo was Jewish, and it is plausible he was attempting to convey how esteemed the Jews were inside the Roman establishment, and not that they were allowed to carry out justice, which the Romans kept as a monopoly.

>Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.

Where is the Kingdom of Heaven then?
>HURR ITS AFTER YOU DIE

Confirmed for not understanding the Messianic prophecies.

What I don't understand is why Christians embrace Paulian thought so easily.

Just look at the God of the Old Testament: he is a warrior god, a national solar-war deity. He may be just, but he is also ruthless and powerful and direct.

Then you get to the New Testament (explicitly inspired by Paul's epistles, since the epistles came before the Gospels were written down), and we have this motif of a suffering god, of a dying deity and his death redeeming the Earth or world; of followers being able to attain salvation or an afterlife by meditating on the death and sacrifice of said god. These elements do not exist in Judaism. God in the OT is NEVER portrayed as suffering or dying or given to sentimentality, and there is never any indication that he would allow himself to be incarnated in the world simply to let himself DIE; on the other hand, if he were to incarnate in the world, it would be as a warrior-king. These ideas of a suffering god are Greek: anyone who knows about mystery religions can instantly see the parallels between Jesus and Orpheus or Attis and their respective mysteries as well as Neo-platonic thought.

>he thinks God is just a Jewish Zeus

What are you basing this "warrior god" concept off of? Was he like woden and sat with his shield brothers at the mead hall? Yahweh smited people more in the old testament and jewish reformers changed him to be more forgiving. There is no message of forgiveness in Hellenistic fables, it was a change entirely brought on by Judea themselves, naturally you would have to have changes to be a reform movement in the first place otherwise there would be just one religion today

People act like Paul worshiped Jupiter just because he was against circumcision

>all of his statements are suspicious

dropped

That's because it's correct. And I think the comparison to Huizilipotchli might be more correct: YHWH was the patron warrior god of the Hebrews/Jews. These ideas of YHWH sacrificing himself to "redeem" humans and the exaggerated focus on the his death and the shedding of his blood are simply not compatible with the Old Testament writings of any understanding of Jewish theology/philosophy.

The New Testament is - simply put - a Greek fanfiction to an Iron Age national myth. Hence why they don't fit at all, and why Christian apologetics have tried for centuries to reconcile them, to the point that some such as Marcion have simply tried to get rid of the OT.

>he would be incarnated as a warrior-King
So you think the Messiah will be a Hercules-figure? Is this what Rabbinite heretics really think?

Occupied Israel. Let the Jew priests do what Jew priests do. Matter of Roman history.

Get the fuck back to /pol/.

Murder the Messiah.
Reject the Kingdom.
Blame the Murdered Messiah for not bringing in the Rejected Kingdom.

Jews.

It will happen when it's supposed to happen, Jew. When the number of Gentiles in heaven is full, it's 7 years away from happening.

You think the Herculean conception of the Messiah isn't Greek?

Same God. Different covenants for different purposes with different peoples.

My loving caring heavenly Father is at the same time your worst nightmare.

Nonsense. Heretics do what heretics do. It has no bearing on reality.

>Thinks he knows about judea because he knows the one story about rabbis asking romans to kill christ

>There is no message of forgiveness in Hellenistic fables

Firstly, I said Greek mystery rites, which are somewhat different from standard Hellenic paganism in that they place a greater aspect on the afterlife and forgiveness. Second, there is no real forgiveness found in the Hebrew Bible either, as it is only extended to the Hebrews and perhaps to those who help the Hebrews and their cause. Not a universal message.

>What are you basing this "warrior god" concept off of?

The fact that he's a national deity who promises to smite Israel's enemies if they give him sacrifices.

>People act like Paul worshiped Jupiter just because he was against circumcision

Considering the things Paul said, he probably was a neo-Platonist or a follower of one of the many mystery religions at the time.

Of course. They wanted Judah the Hammer back, and tried to prop up Simon bar Kochba.

Daily Reminder that Paul is the greatest apostle of Jesus Christ and is likely seated at Jesus' right hand.

>Let the Jew priests do what Jew priests do

Let them do what Jewish priests do in Jewish lands, idiot. Damascus was not a Jewish city.

Honestly, after researching this shit, it's been my idea that Paul was the great deceiver spoken of that would lead the world astray.

"Even Satan appears as an angel cloaked in light." and all that.

They had jurisdiction concerning spiritual matters in their communities outside of Judea.

>supplied content taken from Greek mystery religions
You know that this theory has been debunked for good, right? All you're doing is regurgitating dated academic theories and giving them an anti-Christian spin.

Jews have religious police like muslims have religious police.

And no, Syria was not an independent country at the time.

ffs learn some history.

What mystery rites are you even referencing, this shit flinging stops right now if you can't prove any of this pacificist/ forgiveness spiel game from greece

That idea will be paid in hellfire.

Ideas have victims. You're a victim of that idea.

Two points.

First: their jurisdiction was limited to Judea.
Second: at the point in time that Paul was claiming to be persecuting "Christians", "Christians" as an identity did not even exist. They were merely Jews who happened to think Jesus was a prophet/sage, and that itself was not a crime or a transgression against Jewish thought, since at the time, there were many Messiah claimants and apocalyptic preachers and many people put their stock in them. They still put their stock in Mosaic law and held to all the Jewish precepts.

>>You know that this theory has been debunked for good, right?
No it hasn't. All the "debunkings" do is claim that since christianity isn't exactly like other mystery cults that means christianity didn't get ideas or content from said cults. That's the sort of dumb you get from christard apologists.

Confirmed for being an idiot.

Greater Syria was an Imperial Province, with its governor appointed by the Roman Emperor. "Iudaea was not a Senatorial province, nor exactly an Imperial province, but instead was a 'satellite' of [the province] of Greater Syria."

Look it up yourself.

Google and Wikipedia are your friends.

1/10 I was actually trolling you

If the true Creator decides to punish me for putting a few pieces together by using the rational mind he gave me, so be it.

You realize the Council of Nicaea was not divinely orchestrated, right? And if you claim it was, please provide evidence.

Imagine the beauty of Judaism had it simply been reformed and the teachings of Jesus not usurped by Paul. You'll never get anywhere with this. It is so common sense, but it goes against the fairy tale and the planet isn't ready to put down their Kool-Aid.
Jesus was a man and only a man and people aren't ready for that.
Paul was an opportunist and a charlatan. People aren't ready for that either.
Keep up the good work OP

Again proving my point.

kek

Syria was not an independent nation at the time.

You: No it wasn't.

Nothing catholic is divine. The two words are literally mutually exclusive.

Not sure what your point is.

The bible says he was hunting followers and disciples of Jesus.

Are you trying to say that followers and disciples of Jesus were not Christians?

Holy fuck are you dumb. I mean left foot right foot breathe blink left foot dumb.

That I put zero stock in any catholic council. How is that not obvious?

>>Pauline contributions to the 'Christian' understanding are completely Hellenic, and completely alien to Judaism: concepts such as: sacrifice and a mystical sharing of the death of the deity; the concept of a suffering god and salvation being tied to it.
Implying this is a bad thing. Just make sure to repeat this to my pagan LARPing friends who say that Christianity is a Semitic religion. No, it's a Hellenistic, therefore European, religion with an exotic Asian flavour as fashionable at the time.

Then why put stock in Pauline doctrine, which more or less wasn't universally used until the Council made it canon and decided to fuck over those who disagreed?

All of the books of the bible existed before anyone made a canon of them.

And water is wet.

And 2 + 2 = 4.

How is that "proving your point"?

Greater Syria was the direct ruler of Judea, since Judea was a satellite of Syria. It is totally inappropriate and ridiculous that a vassal - and a poor one at that - would have been exerting direct power over its master by arresting Roman subjects.

Christ shitposters have been so devastated by Nietzschean shitposting they have resorted to atheist posturing on their alleged divinity to prove they aren't jews

Are you trying to say that followers and disciples of Jesus were not Christians?

The Jewish followers of Jesus were not Christians. They did not consider Jesus to be pre-existent or divine; they did not consider him to be God; they did not believe in his virgin birth. They only held that he was a prophet and great leader annointed by God. How hard is this to understand? Here, I'll say it simply so you can understand it: they were Jews who believed Jesus was a a prophet.

Man, you're a fucktard.

Are you dense? I'm asking why you accept Pauline doctrine when it's obvious that it was chosen as a canon simply to make it more desirable for the Greeks and Romans it was converting.

Christians who used to be Jews.
Roman subjects?

kek

What part of Rome tolerating Jewish religious laws being enforced are you unclear on again? The entire history of the region? The entire history of Rome? The entire history of humanity?

{{Clarification needed}}

>confusing a Roman subject for a Roman citizen

The books of the bible had fairly simple conditions to be considered books of the bible.

OT: tanakh.
NT: Written by an eyewitness to the life, ministry, death and/or resurrection of Jesus Christ; cannot contradict any known scripture.

All of Paul's letters and books were written by a man who knew Jesus better than any other, and who received the New Covenant knowledge directly from Christ Jesus. In Arabia. After Jesus rose from the dead.

And nothing in any book or letter written by Paul contradicts anything in the bible.

The New Testament reveals what is hidden in the Old. And Paul was given the answer to several mysteries, not the least of which is salvation being offered to people who ARE NOT JEWS.

>What part of Rome tolerating Jewish religious laws being enforced are you unclear on again?

None, thank you, because I am very well aware that the Jewish High Priesthood's prerogatives were limited to only certain parts of Judea, something which you cannot seem to grasp as it would contradict that little lie Paul told about his being sent to Damascus, and if you were to grasp it, your head might implode from the cognitive dissonance.

>"Both Herod and the Roman administration severely reduced the importance of the office [High Priesthood], appointing and deposing High Priests to suit their purposes."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple_Judaism#Jerusalem_and_Yehud

Wasn't Paul's father an actual Roman Citizen? Kind of hard to say he was a Jew, considering that the Latin Right at the time was very restricted and usually to Italians and a few Greeks, and that Jewish matrilineal shit didn't come along until much later.